Its madness how unthinking we have become. Here's Elon Musk and look at the insanity that commences.

JeffClear

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Oct 15, 2017
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Stump is too stupid to grasp they’re both shit bags, and one shit bag is soaking us for money like a lazy ass trust fund kid.
Are you comparing Ukraine to a trust fund kid?
Trust fund kids are usually spoiled and don't work very hard.
And Ukraine certainly is working and fighting working hard to push out the Russians.
So your comparison of Ukraine to a spoiled trust fund kid is a poor one.
 

PSUEngineer89

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Aug 14, 2021
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Well Putin seems to like Musk's offer so which team do you think he's on?
I'm referencing your statement that no one is trying to force anyone to do anything except "your" team.
My comment relates directly to the point that IF the people from a region of the Ukraine wish to become independent, OR be absorbed with Russia, then WE should support their right to self determination.

Now whether or not they truly wish to, I don't know.

Putin is probably in favor of Musk's position because he knows that it's the best possible scenario for Putin. Right now, it looks like Putin has really weakened himself.

This does NOT mean that Musk is "for Putin" or any such thing - after all, Musk gave Ukraine Starlink access, which has worked against Putin.

Musk is a smart individual. He doesn't care about Zelensky or Putin. He cares about maximizing human potential, which includes not getting killed.
 
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Jason1743

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Jan 23, 2006
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You're correct. Russia (mainly Putin) wanted Ukraine as a buffer between them and NATO. When it became apparent that NATO was intent on bringing Ukraine in, that was the final straw and led to the invasion. Putin did not want NATO sitting on its doorstep in the form of a former satellite country with 44 million people in it.
Being a Putin apologist is not a good look.
Pre war, NATO never accepted a Ukraine application to join. After the invasion, Sweden and Finland decided to join and it looks like Ukraine may follow suit.
I believe many are correct, Putin will not cede territory. The Ukraine war has been such a cluster **** that regime change in Moscow vision a real possibility. It is anyones guess what a new regime will do.
 

DJ Spanky

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Jul 25, 2001
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Being a Putin apologist is not a good look.
Pre war, NATO never accepted a Ukraine application to join. After the invasion, Sweden and Finland decided to join and it looks like Ukraine may follow suit.
I believe many are correct, Putin will not cede territory. The Ukraine war has been such a cluster **** that regime change in Moscow vision a real possibility. It is anyones guess what a new regime will do.
Being a f'in' douche bag is not a good look either, you should try to improve your image.

I'm not a Putin apologist, he's a megalomaniac with delusions of grandeur who believes he can bring back the Soviet Union. And he views NATO as an existential threat. So he wants to buffer the borders of Russia for that. He also views Ukraine as an essential part of a reconstituted Soviet Union, so with the overthrow of a pro-Russian leader a few years back and the election of someone who was trying to move Ukraine into the EU sphere of influence, he decided that invasion was the best course of action. Also, because he's surrounded himself with people who will only tell him what he wants to hear (ala Saddam Hussein), he was under the belief that a) the Russian military was supreme, b) the Ukrainian people would welcome the Russians, and c) a quick strike would neutralize the Ukrainian military and capture/kill the Ukrainian leadership. All 3 assumptions were wrong and have had disastrous consequences for all involved.
 
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bourbon n blues

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Nov 20, 2019
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My comment relates directly to the point that IF the people from a region of the Ukraine wish to become independent, OR be absorbed with Russia, then WE should support their right to self determination.

Now whether or not they truly wish to, I don't know.

Putin is probably in favor of Musk's position because he knows that it's the best possible scenario for Putin. Right now, it looks like Putin has really weakened himself.

This does NOT mean that Musk is "for Putin" or any such thing - after all, Musk gave Ukraine Starlink access, which has worked against Putin.

Musk is a smart individual. He doesn't care about Zelensky or Putin. He cares about maximizing human potential, which includes not getting killed.
Remember , Stump is an idiot . He can’t grasp what you’re getting at, how someone can propose a solution but not be on someone’s side.
Scott Adams has written extensively about persuasion. Musk is moving the narrative with his proposal .
Zelensky is an asshole with his hand out. Peace does nothing to enrich him. Putin is another asshole and a protracted war hurts him.
It’s possible that something beneficial to Putin leads to peace and benefits those who want to see peace. A lengthy war or world war hurts is all.
Since we have a weak leader who made it easy for Putin to make this move , it might be our best option.
 
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JeffClear

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Oct 15, 2017
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My comment relates directly to the point that IF the people from a region of the Ukraine wish to become independent, OR be absorbed with Russia, then WE should support their right to self determination.

Now whether or not they truly wish to, I don't know.

Putin is probably in favor of Musk's position because he knows that it's the best possible scenario for Putin. Right now, it looks like Putin has really weakened himself.

This does NOT mean that Musk is "for Putin" or any such thing - after all, Musk gave Ukraine Starlink access, which has worked against Putin.

Musk is a smart individual. He doesn't care about Zelensky or Putin. He cares about maximizing human potential, which includes not getting killed.
I think Musk, being a billionaire wants stability and the war is destabilizing the global economy and it is in his financial interest to have it end as soon as possible.
And I do not think people from a region of Ukraine have the right to decide on their own to leave Ukraine to become independent or become a part of Russia.
Just like the confederate states didn't have the right to leave the union without consent of the other states.
Now it would be different if Musk proposed a national referendum in Ukraine where solid majorities in both the breakaway regions and the Ukrainian population as a whole would have to agree to those regions leaving.
Breaking off territory affects the entire nation therefore it is fair that the nation as a whole has to agree to it.
When Ukraine became independent, it was approved by the Ukrainian people and the former USSR.
And in our country for a state to leave the union, a constitutional amendment is needed which requires approval by congress and 3/4 of the states.
 

PSUEngineer89

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Aug 14, 2021
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I think Musk, being a billionaire wants stability and the war is destabilizing the global economy and it is in his financial interest to have it end as soon as possible.
And I do not think people from a region of Ukraine have the right to decide on their own to leave Ukraine to become independent or become a part of Russia.
Just like the confederate states didn't have the right to leave the union without consent of the other states.
Now it would be different if Musk proposed a national referendum in Ukraine where solid majorities in both the breakaway regions and the Ukrainian population as a whole would have to agree to those regions leaving.
Breaking off territory affects the entire nation therefore it is fair that the nation as a whole has to agree to it.
When Ukraine became independent, it was approved by the Ukrainian people and the former USSR.
And in our country for a state to leave the union, a constitutional amendment is needed which requires approval by congress and 3/4 of the states.
The primary right of any individual (to be free and able to determine, as much as his capability allows, his own destiny trumps any voting by other individuals who might be worried that "the smart ones might leave us", or whatever.

Those are called primary effects (individual's freedom) vs secondary effects (they might secede, and pollute the planet).

Smart people always favor direct primary effects over presumptive secondary effects.