Its madness how unthinking we have become. Here's Elon Musk and look at the insanity that commences.

PSUEngineer89

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2021
6,446
11,046
1
Musk gave Starlink to Ukraine to help them.

He tweets a proposal to end the war, and it does involve Ukraine ceding some territory.

But it is designed to save lives, which is Musk's obvious goal here.

Man, some people are even saying that if certain regions of Ukraine want to go with Russia, they should not be allowed to.

Now, you might argue that the will of the people in those regions is not represented properly, that's a different question.


 

Jerry

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
5,424
11,356
1
Musk gave Starlink to Ukraine to help them.

He tweets a proposal to end the war, and it does involve Ukraine ceding some territory.

But it is designed to save lives, which is Musk's obvious goal here.

Man, some people are even saying that if certain regions of Ukraine want to go with Russia, they should not be allowed to.

Now, you might argue that the will of the people in those regions is not represented properly, that's a different question.




Yeah, Elon found out what happens when you stray off the Regime reservation on the sacred cause of Ukraine.

It's become highly unfashionable and downright unpatriotic to worry about such trifles as blowing up the world in order to secure Ukie control of Donetsk. I mean, obviously that's worth dying for. All the right-thinking people know this.

As for his proposal, it sounds pretty good as a negotiating start but has about as much chance as a snowball in Hell. We're way beyond that now.

Oh the irony: the same crowd that successfully demanded we shut down the country and hide under the bed for a year because of a virus with a 99% survival rate for most of the population is now casually embracing the possibility of a civilization-destroying nuclear exchange.
 

PaoliLion

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2003
12,815
6,410
1
Musk gave Starlink to Ukraine to help them.

He tweets a proposal to end the war, and it does involve Ukraine ceding some territory.

But it is designed to save lives, which is Musk's obvious goal here.

Man, some people are even saying that if certain regions of Ukraine want to go with Russia, they should not be allowed to.

Now, you might argue that the will of the people in those regions is not represented properly, that's a different question.




Russia applauded his approach. That’s all you need to know.

Here’s my recommended solution:
Anyone who wants to be a Russian can move to Russia, anyone who wants to be a Ukrainian, stay in Ukraine. War over.

Do you know why this won’t work? Russia wants the land, they don’t give a fvck about the people. Bottom line: Russia will never accept an outcome that results in losing the land.

That’s why Elon’s proposal doesn’t work.

Dimwit.
 

jjw165

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2005
3,752
4,225
1
Musk gave Starlink to Ukraine to help them.

He tweets a proposal to end the war, and it does involve Ukraine ceding some territory.

But it is designed to save lives, which is Musk's obvious goal here.

Man, some people are even saying that if certain regions of Ukraine want to go with Russia, they should not be allowed to.

Now, you might argue that the will of the people in those regions is not represented properly, that's a different question.



Musk should deactivate the Starlink internet on them and we’ll find out how quick their quips are.
 

LionDeNittany

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
46,594
21,923
1
DFW, TX
Russia applauded his approach. That’s all you need to know.

Here’s my recommended solution:
Anyone who wants to be a Russian can move to Russia, anyone who wants to be a Ukrainian, stay in Ukraine. War over.

Do you know why this won’t work? Russia wants the land, they don’t give a fvck about the people. Bottom line: Russia will never accept an outcome that results in losing the land.

That’s why Elon’s proposal doesn’t work.

Dimwit.

Of course Russia wants the land. You think that is some sort of genius remark?

However if the people on the land want to be part of Russia as they were, then they can vote for it
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hotshoe and bison13

DJ Spanky

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2001
1,279
2,078
1
Do you know why this won’t work? Russia wants the land, they don’t give a fvck about the people. Bottom line: Russia will never accept an outcome that results in losing the land.

You're correct. Russia (mainly Putin) wanted Ukraine as a buffer between them and NATO. When it became apparent that NATO was intent on bringing Ukraine in, that was the final straw and led to the invasion. Putin did not want NATO sitting on its doorstep in the form of a former satellite country with 44 million people in it.
 

PSUEngineer89

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2021
6,446
11,046
1
The question is: Should people have a right to self-determination?

To me, the question answers itself.

Now there are always practical considerations - such as how small of a region can be autonomous and so forth.

But the first principle is to try to give as many people as possible the right to self-determination.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WeR0206

junior1

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
6,828
7,557
1
You're correct. Russia (mainly Putin) wanted Ukraine as a buffer between them and NATO. When it became apparent that NATO was intent on bringing Ukraine in, that was the final straw and led to the invasion. Putin did not want NATO sitting on its doorstep in the form of a former satellite country with 44 million people in it.
doesn't putin realize that NATO are the good guys???
 

SLUPSU

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2018
4,708
2,722
1
The question is: Should people have a right to self-determination?

To me, the question answers itself.

Now there are always practical considerations - such as how small of a region can be autonomous and so forth.

But the first principle is to try to give as many people as possible the right to self-determination.

You can't be this naive, do you really think putin gives a fvck about the right of self-determination?
 

PaoliLion

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2003
12,815
6,410
1
Of course Russia wants the land. You think that is some sort of genius remark?

However if the people on the land want to be part of Russia as they were, then they can vote for it

“people on the land” - we live in the 21st century - people aren’t attached to land.
 

PaoliLion

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2003
12,815
6,410
1
You're correct. Russia (mainly Putin) wanted Ukraine as a buffer between them and NATO. When it became apparent that NATO was intent on bringing Ukraine in, that was the final straw and led to the invasion. Putin did not want NATO sitting on its doorstep in the form of a former satellite country with 44 million people in it.

This isn’t about NATO
 

JeffClear

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
10,235
4,126
1
The question is: Should people have a right to self-determination?

To me, the question answers itself.

Now there are always practical considerations - such as how small of a region can be autonomous and so forth.

But the first principle is to try to give as many people as possible the right to self-determination.
Overly simplistic propaganda.
The right to self determination is not infinite and has limits in law.
For example the southern states did not have the right to secede from the union without the consent of the other states.
And those nut jobs who declare themselves as sovereign citizens and the laws no longer pertain to them.
 

LMTLION

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2008
2,803
2,924
1
If we currently ran this experiment in Texas some regions would want to form their own republic, some regions would want to remain in the U.S., and some regions would want to be annexed by Mexico.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JeffClear

TN Lion

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2001
33,665
14,163
1
I like, to a degree the framework of Musk's idea. I say allow those that the people of Russian ancestry who want to leave, go to Mother Russia and have Putin provide them with Russian land. Russia's population is shrinking and lord knows, Russia has plenty of land already. Ukraine would compensate those that leave for the value of their land and it's certainly far less than $80 billion and a staggering number of Russian along with Ukrainian lives. Part of the agreement would be that Ukraine never join Nato without the approval of Russia. The Biden administration appears to not want a settlement. No effort is being made to bring the parties together. This irresponsible position on the part of the US and Nato is foolhardy.

Most people don't want to face up to the reality that our country engages in unnecessary meddling in the business of other states and hence the uninformed reason for popular support for Ukraine.
 

PSUEngineer89

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2021
6,446
11,046
1
If we currently ran this experiment in Texas some regions would want to form their own republic, some regions would want to remain in the U.S., and some regions would want to be annexed by Mexico.
No area of Texas would want to be annexed by Mexico.

Some areas might want to form their own state.

I don't see the problem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bourbon n blues

WeR0206

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2014
19,902
25,529
1
2020evidence.org
If we currently ran this experiment in Texas some regions would want to form their own republic, some regions would want to remain in the U.S., and some regions would want to be annexed by Mexico.
That’s not even remotely comparable. Ukraine had an illegal violent coup in 2014 which plunged the country into civil war.
 
Last edited:

Ski

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
9,803
11,846
1
Of course Russia wants the land. You think that is some sort of genius remark?

However if the people on the land want to be part of Russia as they were, then they can vote for it

Or the people there that want to be Russian can move to Russia and the land can remain Ukrainian as the Russians signed up to in the Budapest Memorandum of 1994. If a majority Hispanic Texas someday wants to join Mexico taking the oil fields and ports away from the US would that be cool because the people voted for it?
 

JeffClear

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
10,235
4,126
1
I like, to a degree the framework of Musk's idea. I say allow those that the people of Russian ancestry who want to leave, go to Mother Russia and have Putin provide them with Russian land. Russia's population is shrinking and lord knows, Russia has plenty of land already. Ukraine would compensate those that leave for the value of their land and it's certainly far less than $80 billion and a staggering number of Russian along with Ukrainian lives. Part of the agreement would be that Ukraine never join Nato without the approval of Russia. The Biden administration appears to not want a settlement. No effort is being made to bring the parties together. This irresponsible position on the part of the US and Nato is foolhardy.

Most people don't want to face up to the reality that our country engages in unnecessary meddling in the business of other states and hence the uninformed reason for popular support for Ukraine.
Russia and Putin are the ones guilty of meddling in the business of other states.
Ukraine and NATO countries are sovereign states and Russia does not have the right to dictate who we are friends with. In other words it's none of their business.
And it is Russia who should be paying war reparations to Ukraine, not the other way around.
They have caused so much death and destruction, all because Putin wants to annex Ukraine and restore "historical Russia."
 

Ski

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
9,803
11,846
1
You're correct. Russia (mainly Putin) wanted Ukraine as a buffer between them and NATO. When it became apparent that NATO was intent on bringing Ukraine in, that was the final straw and led to the invasion. Putin did not want NATO sitting on its doorstep in the form of a former satellite country with 44 million people in it.

So in response Russia invades Ukraine and ends up with 800 extra miles of border with NATO in the form of Sweden and Finland who realize that Russia cannot be trusted by its neighbors. Eventually, Ukraine will end up in NATO too. Strategic fail by Pooty Poot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JeffClear

TN Lion

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2001
33,665
14,163
1
Russia and Putin are the ones guilty of meddling in the business of other states.
Ukraine and NATO countries are sovereign states and Russia does not have the right to dictate who we are friends with. In other words it's none of their business.
And it is Russia who should be paying war reparations to Ukraine, not the other way around.
They have caused so much death and destruction, all because Putin wants to annex Ukraine and restore "historical Russia."
The United States has been meddling extensively in Ukraine for at least ten years.

Here a good source from the horses' mouth.
The scope of US political meddling abroad, one needs only to visit the US State Department and corporate-funded National Endowment for Democracy’s (NED) own website.

Do you ever tire of being willfully stupid? Serious question.
 

JeffClear

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
10,235
4,126
1
The United States has been meddling extensively in Ukraine for at least ten years.

Here a good source from the horses' mouth.
The scope of US political meddling abroad, one needs only to visit the US State Department and corporate-funded National Endowment for Democracy’s (NED) own website.

Do you ever tire of being willfully stupid? Serious question.
Our meddling is nothing compared to Russia.
Russia after all did invade Ukraine and tried to overthrow the government and when that failed it annexed large portions of it territory.
And before that Russia installed a puppet government that was overthrown by the Ukrainian people.
And don't fool yourself, Putin doesn't believe in democracy or human rights and he certainly doesn't care what the Ukrainian people want.
He doesn't care who he kills.
So stop pretending that Russia is the aggrieved party here.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Hotshoe

LionDeNittany

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
46,594
21,923
1
DFW, TX
Or the people there that want to be Russian can move to Russia and the land can remain Ukrainian as the Russians signed up to in the Budapest Memorandum of 1994. If a majority Hispanic Texas someday wants to join Mexico taking the oil fields and ports away from the US would that be cool because the people voted for it?

Yes. We have a process for this and it is a possibility.

Scotland voted for independence.
UK voted for independence.

This region of Ukraine has a considerably shorter history as non russian than either of those two examples vs England and Europe respectively.

Yugoslavia had a terrible civil war and broke up.
Czechoslovokia is now multiple countries.
USSR was one country now is several.

Germany voted to reunite after being broken apart.

the ottoman empire was broken up.

Polands borders have changed countless times.

You think because of something that happened during Russia's weakest point with a drunk leading them holds over other points in history?

LdN
 

JeffClear

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
10,235
4,126
1
Yes. We have a process for this and it is a possibility.

Scotland voted for independence.
UK voted for independence.

This region of Ukraine has a considerably shorter history as non russian than either of those two examples vs England and Europe respectively.

Yugoslavia had a terrible civil war and broke up.
Czechoslovokia is now multiple countries.
USSR was one country now is several.

Germany voted to reunite after being broken apart.

the ottoman empire was broken up.

Polands borders have changed countless times.

You think because of something that happened during Russia's weakest point with a drunk leading them holds over other points in history?

LdN
You and Putin are forgetting the all important "No backsies" rule of international law.
 

Ski

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
9,803
11,846
1
Yes. We have a process for this and it is a possibility.

Scotland voted for independence.
UK voted for independence.

This region of Ukraine has a considerably shorter history as non russian than either of those two examples vs England and Europe respectively.

Yugoslavia had a terrible civil war and broke up.
Czechoslovokia is now multiple countries.
USSR was one country now is several.

Germany voted to reunite after being broken apart.

the ottoman empire was broken up.

Polands borders have changed countless times.

You think because of something that happened during Russia's weakest point with a drunk leading them holds over other points in history?

LdN

If international law is the way that countries interact with each other then yes, a democratic Russia with an elected leader that signed an agreement honoring Ukraine's borders after those other events occurred could and should be held to that agreement.

We have a process for independence yes, but how did that work out for South Carolina? Virginia? Alabama? Texas? Any Ukrainian that wants to move to Russia can move. They don't get to take the natural resources of Ukraine with them or to undermine the territorial integrity of Ukraine in doing so.

At the time the Budapest Memorandum was signed, Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal. Now, some people want to allow a Russian invader that has threatened a nuclear attack to be able to renege on that agreement and take pieces of Ukraine away from it. If the civilized world is serious about nuclear nonproliferation, then it has no choice but to act.
 
Last edited:

LionDeNittany

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
46,594
21,923
1
DFW, TX
If international law is the way that countries interact with each other then yes, a democratic Russia with an elected leader that signed an agreement honoring Ukraine's borders after those other events occurred could and should be held to that agreement.

We have a process for independence yes, but how did that work out for South Carolina? Virginia? Alabama? Texas? Any Ukrainian that wants to move to Russia can move. They don't get to take the natural resources of Ukraine with them or to undermine the territorial integrity of Ukraine in doing so.

At the time the Budapest Memorandum was signed, Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal. Now, some people want to allow a Russian invader that has threatened a nuclear attack to be able to renege on that agreement and take pieces of Ukraine away from it. If the civilized world is serious about nuclear nonproliferation, then it has no choice but to act.

My view was we should have acted immediately and without hesitation. Before the invasion.

But that's not what we did.

We egged Russia into the war. Then we stood by and pretended we were doing nothing. Now we are supplying Ukraine with weapons and training (and soldiers... sort of).

And where are we ending up? In a possible nuclear showdown with Russia.

Zelensky will walk the US into a nuclear conflict. Putin is apparently dying of cancer so not sure he cares. Biden is a vegetable.

So, possible nuclear conflict... or we can walk away and say, yeah when Ukraine gave back Russia it's nuclear weapons in return for sovereignty, it was a make-believe deal which should have never happened.

LdN
 

JeffClear

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
10,235
4,126
1
My view was we should have acted immediately and without hesitation. Before the invasion.

But that's not what we did.

We egged Russia into the war. Then we stood by and pretended we were doing nothing. Now we are supplying Ukraine with weapons and training (and soldiers... sort of).

And where are we ending up? In a possible nuclear showdown with Russia.

Zelensky will walk the US into a nuclear conflict. Putin is apparently dying of cancer so not sure he cares. Biden is a vegetable.

So, possible nuclear conflict... or we can walk away and say, yeah when Ukraine gave back Russia it's nuclear weapons in return for sovereignty, it was a make-believe deal which should have never happened.

LdN
Ukrainian independence came years before it gave up its nukes. Independence occurred in 1991, nuclear pact was signed in 1994.
The two had nothing to do with each other.
Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for security pledges from the USA, Russia, and the UK. It already had its sovereignty.
 

LionDeNittany

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
46,594
21,923
1
DFW, TX
Ukrainian independence came years before it gave up its nukes. Independence occurred in 1991, nuclear pact was signed in 1994.
The two had nothing to do with each other.
Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for security pledges from the USA, Russia, and the UK. It already had its sovereignty.

Ukraine's nukes were Russia's so whatever your point is, it's somewhat meaningless.

LdN
 
  • Like
Reactions: bourbon n blues

JeffClear

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
10,235
4,126
1
Ukraine's nukes were Russia's so whatever your point is, it's somewhat meaningless.

LdN
Nope. The nukes were owned by the USSR. When it dissolved the Ukraine held about 1/3 of the USSR’s former nukes.
And Ukraine agreed to have them destroyed in exchange for the security guarantees.
Ukraine was also under significant pressure by the USA and NATO to give them up and likely would have faced severe sanctions if they didn’t.
 

LionDeNittany

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
46,594
21,923
1
DFW, TX
Nope. The nukes were owned by the USSR. When it dissolved the Ukraine held about 1/3 of the USSR’s former nukes.
And Ukraine agreed to have them destroyed in exchange for the security guarantees.
Ukraine was also under significant pressure by the USA and NATO to give them up and likely would have faced severe sanctions if they didn’t.

LOL
 
  • Like
Reactions: bourbon n blues

DJ Spanky

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2001
1,279
2,078
1
So in response Russia invades Ukraine and ends up with 800 extra miles of border with NATO in the form of Sweden and Finland who realize that Russia cannot be trusted by its neighbors. Eventually, Ukraine will end up in NATO too. Strategic fail by Pooty Poot.

Sweden and Finland combined only have 15 million or so, and they're not a breadbasket like the Ukraine is.
 

WeR0206

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2014
19,902
25,529
1
2020evidence.org
If international law is the way that countries interact with each other then yes, a democratic Russia with an elected leader that signed an agreement honoring Ukraine's borders after those other events occurred could and should be held to that agreement.

We have a process for independence yes, but how did that work out for South Carolina? Virginia? Alabama? Texas? Any Ukrainian that wants to move to Russia can move. They don't get to take the natural resources of Ukraine with them or to undermine the territorial integrity of Ukraine in doing so.

At the time the Budapest Memorandum was signed, Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal. Now, some people want to allow a Russian invader that has threatened a nuclear attack to be able to renege on that agreement and take pieces of Ukraine away from it. If the civilized world is serious about nuclear nonproliferation, then it has no choice but to act.
Ukraine undermined itself by allowing itself to become the west’s corrupt little playground and money laundering hub. It’s a failed state at this point.

Is there anything in the Budapest agreement about what happens when armed psychos illegally overthrow the govt as part of a coup and then certain regions don’t recognize the new sham govt so civil war ensues with the sham govt attacking the breakaway regions for 8 yrs committing tons of war crimes? Bc that’s what happened/started the civil war in Ukraine.

Does it say anything about what happens if western funded/controlled biolabs come into the mix right on russias border?

I notice that you ALWAYS leave this key context out when discussing Ukraine. Is it bc its not mentioned in the neocon thinktank talking points that you mindlessly consume?
 
Last edited:

rutgersdave

Well-Known Member
Jan 23, 2004
612
324
1
Having an election when 60-70% of the people relocated out of the areas because of the war makes sense and forcing the remainder to vote by soldiers with guns.
 

PSUEngineer89

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2021
6,446
11,046
1
Yes. We have a process for this and it is a possibility.

Scotland voted for independence.
UK voted for independence.

This region of Ukraine has a considerably shorter history as non russian than either of those two examples vs England and Europe respectively.

Yugoslavia had a terrible civil war and broke up.
Czechoslovokia is now multiple countries.
USSR was one country now is several.

Germany voted to reunite after being broken apart.

the ottoman empire was broken up.

Polands borders have changed countless times.

You think because of something that happened during Russia's weakest point with a drunk leading them holds over other points in history?

LdN
Yes, good point.

Bad developments for the authoritarian leaders at the time, but all good developments for the people.
 

PSUEngineer89

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2021
6,446
11,046
1
Having an election when 60-70% of the people relocated out of the areas because of the war makes sense and forcing the remainder to vote by soldiers with guns.
No silly. We mean a real election.

Let the people vote under a watchful eye and give the people what they want.

No one is trying to force people into anything, except your team.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bourbon n blues

JeffClear

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
10,235
4,126
1
No silly. We mean a real election.

Let the people vote under a watchful eye and give the people what they want.

No one is trying to force people into anything, except your team.
Did you forget about Russia and Putin? That’s pretty much his MO, forcing people to do things and/or kill them.
 

JeffClear

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
10,235
4,126
1
You mean the KGB communist authoritarian, Putin?

No, of course not.

He is terrible.
Well Putin seems to like Musk's offer so which team do you think he's on?
I'm referencing your statement that no one is trying to force anyone to do anything except "your" team.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: psuted