All things considered I say yes...especially with this most likely final honor. Top 5 pushing it?
http://intermatwrestle.com/articles/19984
http://intermatwrestle.com/articles/19984
Is Zain in the top 10 best ever collegiate wrestlers?
- Thread starter Big Blue12
- Start date
3x'rs are a special group ...
4x'rs own the top 4 spots - who makes the list as the 5th best? List of 3x'rs on this page is a really solid group of wrestlers
http://www.d1collegewrestling.net/Honors_Multiple.html
tough to rank 5-10, 11-15 --- who do you leave off???
4x'rs own the top 4 spots - who makes the list as the 5th best? List of 3x'rs on this page is a really solid group of wrestlers
http://www.d1collegewrestling.net/Honors_Multiple.html
tough to rank 5-10, 11-15 --- who do you leave off???
agree. You have to give some credence to the hodge trophy winners, let alone multiple
Whew! "All Time". I can't even think of that monster because you can name 50 names and someone will name 20 more you forgot and you only have room for 10. I'll go off the top of my head and forget a ton here, then figure where does Zain go?
-Cael
-Gable
-Schalles
-Dan Hodge
-Uetake
-Bill Koll
-Gray Simons
-Kemp
-Pat Smith
-McIlreavy
-Randy Lewis
-Dake
-DT
-Ruth
-Nate Carr
-Churella
-Schultz
-Barry Davis
-Gene Mills
That's around 20, and I left at least that many out, now, where does Zain come in? I think you can put him in that group but top ten? Maybe! I think you can safely say that Zain can fit into the top 25 of all time, after that we are going into the weeds.
-Cael
-Gable
-Schalles
-Dan Hodge
-Uetake
-Bill Koll
-Gray Simons
-Kemp
-Pat Smith
-McIlreavy
-Randy Lewis
-Dake
-DT
-Ruth
-Nate Carr
-Churella
-Schultz
-Barry Davis
-Gene Mills
That's around 20, and I left at least that many out, now, where does Zain come in? I think you can put him in that group but top ten? Maybe! I think you can safely say that Zain can fit into the top 25 of all time, after that we are going into the weeds.
Tom Brands was a tough hombre on the mat and he's not on your list
It's hard for most fans to separate the freestyle and other post college accolades from the collegiate career.
I often bring up Gable, if he doesn't win at the international level and have the great success as a coach, does he get ranked as high?
I often bring up Gable, if he doesn't win at the international level and have the great success as a coach, does he get ranked as high?
Yes. He had one loss in college. And he beat the snot out of nearly everyone (118-1, 25 consecutive pins at one point, pinned his way through the NCAAs in 1969 and right up until the loss to Owings in 1970). I know he only has two titles, but he belongs way, way up on the list. I would put him second behind Cael with the caveat that I have no idea how to compare the great old-timers like Koll, Hodge, Uetake, etc.
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And about 5 seconds after I posted that list I thought of him.
...3X ers vs 4X ers ... remember ...
...for many years college athletes only had THREE YEARS of eligibility.., !
...for many years college athletes only had THREE YEARS of eligibility.., !
You also left out PD3.
There is a way to judge this -- and it's normalized: career NCAA Tournament points. Zain made the top 10, and was borderline top 5.
Of course that's biased against guys who only wrestled 3 years, so there's a solution for them: drop Zain's freshman year and see how he stacks up against them. I'll guess pretty well.
Of course that's biased against guys who only wrestled 3 years, so there's a solution for them: drop Zain's freshman year and see how he stacks up against them. I'll guess pretty well.
I know this won’t be a popular opinion but I disagree with the idea that the 4xers own the top 4 spots.
I mean I think if I’m being honest, even if he wins 4 titles, I’d have a real hard time saying Cenzo is better than Nolf or Zain. And that’s certainly not a knock on Joseph.
So sometimes the dreaded eye test should factor in IMO. Along with level of dominance
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Luck plays part of being a 4x... if Logan steiber wasn’t sane weight class as fresh Zain, I believe, Zain woulda also been 4x. It’s not just number of titles either but the way he dominated the competition... easily top 10 in my book
You're right about that. How can one omit people like Daryl Burley, Carlton Haselrig, IMar, Mark Branch (if I am not mistaken, he's the only guy in the modern era to enter the postseason with a losing record on the year - 1993/94 - and win a title. Lest you say it was a fluke, he became a four time finalist, with another title under his belt)? The list goes on and on.
He did lose to Mitchell Port as well during the tournament...
"Lost" in quotes. Match was somewhat controversial with a few odd calls and non calls.
Randy freaking Lewis NEEDS to be in the top ten regardless of the technicalities of the stats: He was one of the most amazing wrestlers I have ever seen. He was one of those "How does it do it" guys that are so rare. I clearly recall Johnson and Gibbons being asked this year who Bo Nickal most reminded them of, and they both answered at the same time "Randy Lewis".
I agree. The perfect example is that Zain, as a true freshman, beat Steiber in a match in Steiber's senior season. I cannot imagine any true freshman that would be good enough to beat Zain as a senior. IMO, Zain as a true freshmen was better than Steiber as a true freshman, Zain as a redshirt Soph. was better than Steiber as a Soph., etc.
26 3xers...didn't realize there were that many
**edit, make that 28 with Zain and Snyder winning their 3rd in 2018...sorry, Dean Heil and IMart
Thanks for the memories from some of those guys, like Carlton Haselrig with the unlikely path including Pitt-Johnstown and then the Pittsburgh Steelers
After Stieber though. Zain and Port were on opposite sides of the bracket, and Port lost in the quarters.
Redraw the brackets without Stieber, and Zain gets Devin Carter in the semis (probably a win, Stieber beat Carter 10-1), and then in the finals gets Evan Henderson, Chris Mecate, or Chris Dardanes. That draw looks like a title for Zain.
If Cenzo wins 4 titles, and Nolf wins 3 titles, then Cenzo would be better at winning titles than Nolf. Because Cenzo would have twice beaten, when it counted, the same guy who beat Nolf when it counted. But Nolf can still be better than Cenzo at other tasks, such as scoring more team points due to domination (i.e., due to bonus points), or perhaps at regular-season consistency, etc., etc.
there are some things NOT worth arguing over ...
REPEAT AFTER ME!!!
WE ( pause ) - all of us PSU Fans - ( pause ) - I will thank a lucky star tonight! ( dramatic pause,wipe a tear )
MAN HAVE WE BEEN BLESSED THE LAST 10 YEARS
Hard to compare beating Tomasello with beating Logie. Logie is better in all three positions and a 4 time champion.
Since you brought up Port. Zain's worst career loss (in term's of quality opponent) was to Port. Port was a 3x AA and had a 2nd and a 3rd. That's not too shabby.
The Nolf/Cenzo debate is interesting and I've had it with a few people. Assuming Cenzo goes 4x and Nolf 3x, your points are valid, all of the data points to Cenzo but I'm still saying Nolf is the better wrestler.
That's true but it's still a fun conversation to have, not necessarily an argument.
If Joseph wins 4 titles he's absolutely better than Nolf in my opinion. Nolf is 1-2 against IMar, and lost to IMar in the NCAA finals. Joseph owns two wins in the NCAA finals over IMar.
Basically, IMar is the guy who will have kept Nolf from being a 4xer and Joseph was able to win 2 titles with IMar at his weight.
Even if Joseph is a 3xer, it's still going to be hard to say he's not better than Nolf. Jason is a more dominant wrestler, though. There's no questioning that, but the success Joseph has had is incredible considering he had a 2X NCAA champ who now has 3 career losses (with 2 coming to Joseph in the NCAA finals) in his path.
I completely agree. I think people get caught up in VJ's losses to Subjeck and perhaps Marinelli and overlook what he has done the last two seasons. People sometimes forget how dominant Martinez was before his first loss (Nolf). There were chirpings that IMar would rival Cael as an undefeated 4 timer. Well Nolf and more so VJ had other ideas.
Bingo. This is one of those circular arguments that will go round and round, because everyone's definition of what makes someone the best is different. Instead, I'm just going to enjoy the ride and let everyone else debate this issue.
So many factors, so many opinions...it's great to be part of discussions with reasonable people.
I'm stepping back for a second, trying to shed all biases, and look at this objectively. Sorry, but I can't!! I'll be 62 in a couple months, so I've only followed college wrestling for about half of its NCAA existence (fan since 1974). I've studied the rule changes (including scoring), weight change history, and the like, and believe I'm more knowledgeable than most. What I see is a landscape that has changed so dramatically over time, that comparisons can be presented, argued, discussed, ad nauseam, and still, we will not agree...which is ok... those differences, presented as point-counterpoint, is all part of the FUN to me.
As stated above, "so many factors" to consider. My contribution to the discussion is a list of variables to be considered, to which you can add.
-- Wrestler's overall record
-- # of individual national championships
-- Times a finalist
-- Times an All-American
-- Era wrestled (style, scoring, level of competition, etc.)
-- Dominance
-- Freshmen ineligibility
-- Rule differences (over time)
-- Injury
-- Strength of schedule
It's my humble opinion that era differences are the toughest to reconcile. We tend to weigh heavily that which we've seen, which is ok, but it does create bias.
For example...
It's my opinion Cael is the greatest college wrestler of all-time. Even that thought has been discussed and argued, with counter-points being, among some of the variables above, a RS freshman loss to Jenn (RIP) and a couple losses in High School. Not sure I understand, though they're entitled to their opinion.
After Cael, again my opinion, is where it gets messy, and the variables above create some interesting discussion points, and different lists.
Here's one list I found, from Mike Chapman at WIN Magazine, dated 2010 (article is linked), so insert some of the recent guys if you like...
No. 1 – Cael Sanderson, Iowa State
No. 2. Dan Hodge, University of Oklahoma
No. 3. Yojiro Uetake, Oklahoma State University
No. 4. Bill Koll, Iowa State Teachers College
No. 5. Dan Gable, Iowa State
No. 6. Gray Simons, Lock Haven State
No. 7. Lee Kemp, University of Wisconsin
No. 8. Stanley Henson, Oklahoma State
No. 9. Pat Smith, Oklahoma State
No. 10. Carlton Haselrig, Pitt Johnstown
No. 11. Buddy Arndt, Oklahoma State
No. 12 Jack VanBebber, Oklahoma State
No. 13. Lincoln McIlravy, University of Iowa
No. 14. Rick Sanders, Portland State
TIE # 15. Keith Young, Iowa State Teachers College
TIE # 15. Lowell Lange, Cornell College
Special mention:
Randy Lewis
Bill Smith (Iowa Teachers)
https://www.win-magazine.com/2010/11/my-all-time-greatest-college-wrestlers/
Here's also a list of undefeated guys...
Wrestler School Titles Career Record Win Pct Falls
Harold DeMarsh Oklahoma State 1 1928 5-0 100.00% 1
George Rule Oklahoma State 1 1927-1929 8-0 100.00% 3
Art Baker Syracuse 1 1959 12-0-1 96.15% 1
Henry Matthes Lehigh 1 1939 13-0 100.00% 7
Cael Sanderson Iowa State 4 1999-2002 159-0 100.00% 61
Conrad Caldwell Oklahoma State 3 1930-1932 18-0 100.00% 4
Harley Strong Oklahoma State 1 1936-1938 19-0 100.00% 7
Jack VanBebber Oklahoma State 3 1929-1931 22-0 100.00% 9
David Arndt Oklahoma State 3 1941-1946 23-0 100.00% 7
Earl McCready Oklahoma State 3 1928-1930 25-0 100.00% 20
Rex Peery Oklahoma State 3 1933-1935 29-0 100.00% 16
Arthur Holding Iowa State 1 1927-1929 30-0 100.00% 7
Bill Smith Northern Iowa 2 1948-1950 31-0-2 96.97% 6
Bill Koll Northern Iowa 3 1943-1948 36-0 100.00% 15
Dick DiBatista Pennsylvania 2 1941-1943 37-0 100.00% 0
Keith Young Northern Iowa 3 1949-1951 43-0 100.00% 12
Tony Gizoni Waynesburg 2 1948-1952 44-0 100.00% 0
Dan Hodge Oklahoma 3 1955-1957 46-0 100.00% 36
Yojiro Uetake Oklahoma State 3 1964-1966 57-0 100.00% 11
Chris Taylor Iowa State 2 1972-1973 80-0-1 99.38% 64
I'm stepping back for a second, trying to shed all biases, and look at this objectively. Sorry, but I can't!! I'll be 62 in a couple months, so I've only followed college wrestling for about half of its NCAA existence (fan since 1974). I've studied the rule changes (including scoring), weight change history, and the like, and believe I'm more knowledgeable than most. What I see is a landscape that has changed so dramatically over time, that comparisons can be presented, argued, discussed, ad nauseam, and still, we will not agree...which is ok... those differences, presented as point-counterpoint, is all part of the FUN to me.
As stated above, "so many factors" to consider. My contribution to the discussion is a list of variables to be considered, to which you can add.
-- Wrestler's overall record
-- # of individual national championships
-- Times a finalist
-- Times an All-American
-- Era wrestled (style, scoring, level of competition, etc.)
-- Dominance
-- Freshmen ineligibility
-- Rule differences (over time)
-- Injury
-- Strength of schedule
It's my humble opinion that era differences are the toughest to reconcile. We tend to weigh heavily that which we've seen, which is ok, but it does create bias.
For example...
It's my opinion Cael is the greatest college wrestler of all-time. Even that thought has been discussed and argued, with counter-points being, among some of the variables above, a RS freshman loss to Jenn (RIP) and a couple losses in High School. Not sure I understand, though they're entitled to their opinion.
After Cael, again my opinion, is where it gets messy, and the variables above create some interesting discussion points, and different lists.
Here's one list I found, from Mike Chapman at WIN Magazine, dated 2010 (article is linked), so insert some of the recent guys if you like...
No. 1 – Cael Sanderson, Iowa State
No. 2. Dan Hodge, University of Oklahoma
No. 3. Yojiro Uetake, Oklahoma State University
No. 4. Bill Koll, Iowa State Teachers College
No. 5. Dan Gable, Iowa State
No. 6. Gray Simons, Lock Haven State
No. 7. Lee Kemp, University of Wisconsin
No. 8. Stanley Henson, Oklahoma State
No. 9. Pat Smith, Oklahoma State
No. 10. Carlton Haselrig, Pitt Johnstown
No. 11. Buddy Arndt, Oklahoma State
No. 12 Jack VanBebber, Oklahoma State
No. 13. Lincoln McIlravy, University of Iowa
No. 14. Rick Sanders, Portland State
TIE # 15. Keith Young, Iowa State Teachers College
TIE # 15. Lowell Lange, Cornell College
Special mention:
Randy Lewis
Bill Smith (Iowa Teachers)
https://www.win-magazine.com/2010/11/my-all-time-greatest-college-wrestlers/
Here's also a list of undefeated guys...
Wrestler School Titles Career Record Win Pct Falls
Harold DeMarsh Oklahoma State 1 1928 5-0 100.00% 1
George Rule Oklahoma State 1 1927-1929 8-0 100.00% 3
Art Baker Syracuse 1 1959 12-0-1 96.15% 1
Henry Matthes Lehigh 1 1939 13-0 100.00% 7
Cael Sanderson Iowa State 4 1999-2002 159-0 100.00% 61
Conrad Caldwell Oklahoma State 3 1930-1932 18-0 100.00% 4
Harley Strong Oklahoma State 1 1936-1938 19-0 100.00% 7
Jack VanBebber Oklahoma State 3 1929-1931 22-0 100.00% 9
David Arndt Oklahoma State 3 1941-1946 23-0 100.00% 7
Earl McCready Oklahoma State 3 1928-1930 25-0 100.00% 20
Rex Peery Oklahoma State 3 1933-1935 29-0 100.00% 16
Arthur Holding Iowa State 1 1927-1929 30-0 100.00% 7
Bill Smith Northern Iowa 2 1948-1950 31-0-2 96.97% 6
Bill Koll Northern Iowa 3 1943-1948 36-0 100.00% 15
Dick DiBatista Pennsylvania 2 1941-1943 37-0 100.00% 0
Keith Young Northern Iowa 3 1949-1951 43-0 100.00% 12
Tony Gizoni Waynesburg 2 1948-1952 44-0 100.00% 0
Dan Hodge Oklahoma 3 1955-1957 46-0 100.00% 36
Yojiro Uetake Oklahoma State 3 1964-1966 57-0 100.00% 11
Chris Taylor Iowa State 2 1972-1973 80-0-1 99.38% 64
Mmmm...Haselrig at 10? I think we got a died in the wool Steelers fan here. Loved him as a player. A beast back then. He beat Kurt Angle in college so maybe he was that good.
There’s a nice article about and short video clip of an interview with Uetake at the link below. When asked if he was the GOAT he said something to the effect, “no, but I worked hard and somehow didn’t lose.” Haha. Cool wrestling story.
Made me wonder how often we’ve had foreign wrestlers on college teams in the U.S.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/theolympians.co/2016/06/17/two-time-olympic-champion-wrestler-yojiro-uetake-part-2-born-in-japan-made-in-america/amp/
Made me wonder how often we’ve had foreign wrestlers on college teams in the U.S.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/theolympians.co/2016/06/17/two-time-olympic-champion-wrestler-yojiro-uetake-part-2-born-in-japan-made-in-america/amp/
Agree with everything Roar pointed out but must add Robin Reed, perhaps at the top of the list!
https://sites.google.com/site/wrestlingscout/profiles-by-country/profiles/robinreed
https://sites.google.com/site/wrestlingscout/profiles-by-country/profiles/robinreed
Haselrig was a beast but a great number of his matches were against D2 kids. Might not of had the record he had if he wrestled a full D1 schedule. I still think he most likely wins 3x but he might have had a few more losses over his career
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