is this board going to be affected by

nittinsc

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Aug 21, 2017
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WELP... at least my 247 Sports login still works. There is some activity over there. Almost the same username, just no 86. See ya all there after November?
I really do not remember why we all moved, other than activity dropped there.
I still have the same ID on 24/7 and was there more years ago. Most made the switch, if I recall correctly, because when FOS became 24/7 the functionality for users, especially mobile, users was crappy. Not sure if that has been cleared up since I almost exclusively post from my PC.
 

nittinsc

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Although I don't view any of the other forums on BWI except an occasional view of the Test/politics board for amusement, making the move in the middle of football season is a smart but crappy move. Kind of like the waiter taking your plate away unless you order dessert.
 

tikk10

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Nov 6, 2015
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I'm sure the on3 people don't feel they are being lost--but $1 for the 1st year and $99/yr after is kinda a big deal.
There's the additional cost that's a new and obviously straightforward barrier, but there's also the question of the content that was posted here, which was posted with the understanding that it would be freely accessible by anyone with a Rivals account, and what happens to it.

Without getting too far into the weeds, I (and you and every other poster/commenter) still retains copyright to their posts, though we've obviously licensed it to Yahoo!/Rivals for display here, and further, we can't cry infringement when someone quotes our posts. So it's a broad license, but not so broad as to permit an owner to swoop in and begin selling content that was licensed with the implicit and explicit understanding that it would be freely accessible.

Rivals is owned by Yahoo! and in its Terms of Service it explicitly references this Yahoo! page's main Terms of Service. At the latter, Yahoo! spells this out, and I've highlighted the key passages.

a. Content. Our Services display some content that we did not create and do not own. [....]

b. IP Ownership and License Grant. Except as otherwise provided in the specific product terms or guidelines for one of our Services, when you upload, share with or submit content to the Services you retain ownership of any intellectual property rights that you hold in that content and you grant to us a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, transferable, sublicensable license to (a) use, host, store, reproduce, modify, prepare derivative works (such as translations, adaptations, summaries or other changes), communicate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display, and distribute this content in any manner, mode of delivery or media now known or developed in the future; and (b) permit other users to access, reproduce, distribute, publicly display, prepare derivative works of, and publicly perform your content via the Services, as may be permitted by the functionality of those Services (e.g., for users to re-blog, re-post or download your content). [....]

Conspicuously absent among the licensable rights is "sell" or "resell." This means that any purchaser of this board who thinks they're also getting all of the content created by users who each hold individual copyrights, is likely mistaken if they intend to put it behind a paywall. They'd need releases/waivers from each person who created content for which they want to now charge, or they'd be gambling that no one would push back.

Companies often gamble and overreach on IP issues because it rarely makes economic sense for nominal copyright holders to push back, so it could work. But if what I'm describing actually occurs, I'll draft a simple fill-in-the-blanks online form so anyone can formally complain and put the new owner on notice that they've exceeded the scope of the license I/you/anyone granted per the Yahoo! TOS, and are thus infringing.

Perhaps the new owners have no intention of keeping all the content, and will just kill this board so as to not have a competitor to its new product. No copyright implications there. But it'd be a huge shame because this board has real value. I believe a lot of what I said also applies to the football board, perhaps even more so because there's more traffic there, but my immediate concern is this board.
 

nittinsc

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If the contents of this board are posted on on3, does each user post constitute a separate, unique case of infringement?
 

nerfstate

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There's the additional cost that's a new and obviously straightforward barrier, but there's also the question of the content that was posted here, which was posted with the understanding that it would be freely accessible by anyone with a Rivals account, and what happens to it.

Without getting too far into the weeds, I (and you and every other poster/commenter) still retains copyright to their posts, though we've obviously licensed it to Yahoo!/Rivals for display here, and further, we can't cry infringement when someone quotes our posts. So it's a broad license, but not so broad as to permit an owner to swoop in and begin selling content that was licensed with the implicit and explicit understanding that it would be freely accessible.

Rivals is owned by Yahoo! and in its Terms of Service it explicitly references this Yahoo! page's main Terms of Service. At the latter, Yahoo! spells this out, and I've highlighted the key passages.



Conspicuously absent among the licensable rights is "sell" or "resell." This means that any purchaser of this board who thinks they're also getting all of the content created by users who each hold individual copyrights, is likely mistaken if they intend to put it behind a paywall. They'd need releases/waivers from each person who created content for which they want to now charge, or they'd be gambling that no one would push back.

Companies often gamble and overreach on IP issues because it rarely makes economic sense for nominal copyright holders to push back, so it could work. But if what I'm describing actually occurs, I'll draft a simple fill-in-the-blanks online form so anyone can formally complain and put the new owner on notice that they've exceeded the scope of the license I/you/anyone granted per the Yahoo! TOS, and are thus infringing.

Perhaps the new owners have no intention of keeping all the content, and will just kill this board so as to not have a competitor to its new product. No copyright implications there. But it'd be a huge shame because this board has real value. I believe a lot of what I said also applies to the football board, perhaps even more so because there's more traffic there, but my immediate concern is this board.
totally agree, thanks for the analysis though. For me, a pay wall limits what this board can do— I have reason to believe that access to this forum turns casual fans into super fans better than just about anything other than the actual athletic contests. that’s not going to happen behind a pay wall. Also, wrestling is sized right for a free board—I get football content being premium, just to keep the product digestible.
 

Bob_Anderson

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May 24, 2007
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There is a Wrestling Room on On3. There's also a Lions Den. Phil says he has sold the magazine, only. They can obviously say nothing until Nov 1. As I have looked, I see no free boards, but it's a dollar to join for the year. I believe the writing is on the wall. What happens to this and Tom's board, I do not know. Y'all should have a pretty good guess.
I think Phil's "sold the magazine only" line is a little misleading because all the writers are moving to on3. Whatever doesn't fall under "the magazine" is probably worthless.
 

tikk10

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If the contents of this board are posted on on3, does each user post constitute a separate, unique case of infringement?
Yes, but this gets us into a discussion of damages, which would be minimal. Unless users are also uploading registering the copyright of their posts they can't claim statutory damages, and I can't imagine who would bother to do that except to prove some point (I'm now thinking of arguments I've been in on Usenet where this may have even happened). But even if your content isn't registered with the copyright office, you can get an injunction against the infringer, which could be as effective as the ability to claim damages because it could put the infringer over a barrel, depending on the circumstances.
 
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Sullivan

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Yes, but this gets us into a discussion of damages, which would be minimal. Unless users are also uploading registering the copyright of their posts they can't claim statutory damages, and I can't imagine who would bother to do that except to prove some point (I'm now thinking of arguments I've been in on Usenet where this may have even happened). But even if your content isn't registered with the copyright office, you can get an injunction against the infringer, which could be as effective as the ability to claim damages because it could put the infringer over a barrel, depending on the circumstances.
51RtsvwtaFL._AC_SL1200_.jpg
 
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Hotshoe

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I think Phil's "sold the magazine only" line is a little misleading because all the writers are moving to on3. Whatever doesn't fall under "the magazine" is probably worthless.
I'm just sticking to what has been specifically said. It's fairly obvious what's moving. That said, what happens with Rivals, no idea.
 

nittinsc

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Yes, but this gets us into a discussion of damages, which would be minimal. Unless users are also uploading registering the copyright of their posts they can't claim statutory damages, and I can't imagine who would bother to do that except to prove some point (I'm now thinking of arguments I've been in on Usenet where this may have even happened). But even if your content isn't registered with the copyright office, you can get an injunction against the infringer, which could be as effective as the ability to claim damages because it could put the infringer over a barrel, depending on the circumstances.

 

tikk10

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Sorry.

More simply, you can only collect damages on infringements if you've registered your copyright with the gov't. But you can stop others from profiting off your work by getting an injunction, regardless of whether you've registered your copyright with the gov't.
 
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WPB_lion

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I'm just sticking to what has been specifically said. It's fairly obvious what's moving. That said, what happens with Rivals, no idea.
Please dummy proof this for me because it is not obvious to me what is moving.

From the end user standpoint, I want to know what happens on November 2 when I load bwi.rivals.com or when I load the web address for the McAndrew Board or when I load the web address for BWI Wrestling Board. Is it going to take me to the On3 website or am I going to see the same pages that existed the day before? Will I be able to post on the McAndrew Board or the Wrestling Board on November 2? If we are still able to post on these boards on November 2, what has really changed from an end user standpoint?

I know from typing in web addresses that anytime you type something before ".rivals.com" (even jibberish), it takes you to a Rivals website. It appears to me that Rivals controls any web address that contains ".rivals.com", including "bwi.rivals.com."
 

nittinsc

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Yes, but this gets us into a discussion of damages, which would be minimal. Unless users are also uploading registering the copyright of their posts they can't claim statutory damages, and I can't imagine who would bother to do that except to prove some point (I'm now thinking of arguments I've been in on Usenet where this may have even happened). But even if your content isn't registered with the copyright office, you can get an injunction against the infringer, which could be as effective as the ability to claim damages because it could put the infringer over a barrel, depending on the circumstances.

How do you register? I looked at the GRTX application and it mentions social media/blog posts but do you have to list each post or is there a way to cover any/all posts to a particular forum?
 
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west2east

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I'm sure the on3 people don't feel they are being lost--but $1 for the 1st year and $99/yr after is kinda a big deal.
Exactly. Someone just make a post on the mat forum titled Penn St and everyone just go there for FREE.
 

McScoreley

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I think On3 board will be tough if the board is going to require a subscription. The majority of people here are free posters (no "Gold Member" tag) Even a dollar for a year might be too much just out of the "principles" of it and not to mention, it'll be $99 a year afterwards. We'll be in the same position right a year from now discussing where to move next.

247's Wrestling Board is free. Almost no traffic right now. There also is a running wrestling thread started by Brantt (everyone's favorite guy) on the Main Board but that's just one thread. The moderators of 247 are basically purely football focused (obviously) I think they'd very much welcome significant growth of Wrestling Discussion there though especially since for the most part, our posters are self policing.


Selfishly, I would love that since I am already on 247 regularly.

For the record, I hope this isn't giving off "Boycott On3" vibes by advocating for another board, I fully intend to support them. This is just me acknowledging what we need is a free place to discuss all things Penn State wrestling.
 

nerfstate

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I think On3 board will be tough if the board is going to require a subscription. The majority of people here are free posters (no "Gold Member" tag) Even a dollar for a year might be too much just out of the "principles" of it and not to mention, it'll be $99 a year afterwards. We'll be in the same position right a year from now discussing where to move next.

247's Wrestling Board is free. Almost no traffic right now. There also is a running wrestling thread started by Brantt (everyone's favorite guy) on the Main Board but that's just one thread. The moderators of 247 are basically purely football focused (obviously) I think they'd very much welcome significant growth of Wrestling Discussion there though especially since for the most part, our posters are self policing.


Selfishly, I would love that since I am already on 247 regularly.

For the record, I hope this isn't giving off "Boycott On3" vibes by advocating for another board, I fully intend to support them. This is just me acknowledging what we need is a free place to discuss all things Penn State wrestling.
So far, I am underwhelmed by the user experience of that forum (24/7). But it has a lot going for it because it exists.
 

Hotshoe

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Please dummy proof this for me because it is not obvious to me what is moving.

From the end user standpoint, I want to know what happens on November 2 when I load bwi.rivals.com or when I load the web address for the McAndrew Board or when I load the web address for BWI Wrestling Board. Is it going to take me to the On3 website or am I going to see the same pages that existed the day before? Will I be able to post on the McAndrew Board or the Wrestling Board on November 2? If we are still able to post on these boards on November 2, what has really changed from an end user standpoint?

I know from typing in web addresses that anytime you type something before ".rivals.com" (even jibberish), it takes you to a Rivals website. It appears to me that Rivals controls any web address that contains ".rivals.com", including "bwi.rivals.com."
All I can say is On3 has boards with the same exact name as here. The Lions Den and the Wrestling Room.
 

nittinsc

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So far, I am underwhelmed by the user experience of that forum (24/7). But it has a lot going for it because it exists.

If you are referring to the visual presentation, I agree. I think that was one of the knocks against it when it changed and many, including myself, posted here more frequently. Content wise, however, On The Mats was pretty good before the changes.
 
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tikk10

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I think On3 board will be tough if the board is going to require a subscription. The majority of people here are free posters (no "Gold Member" tag) Even a dollar for a year might be too much just out of the "principles" of it and not to mention, it'll be $99 a year afterwards. We'll be in the same position right a year from now discussing where to move next.

247's Wrestling Board is free. Almost no traffic right now. There also is a running wrestling thread started by Brantt (everyone's favorite guy) on the Main Board but that's just one thread. The moderators of 247 are basically purely football focused (obviously) I think they'd very much welcome significant growth of Wrestling Discussion there though especially since for the most part, our posters are self policing.


Selfishly, I would love that since I am already on 247 regularly.

For the record, I hope this isn't giving off "Boycott On3" vibes by advocating for another board, I fully intend to support them. This is just me acknowledging what we need is a free place to discuss all things Penn State wrestling.
I posted there before posting here but even before the changes it was lower tier software. Then there was some supposed upgrade that was actually a downgrade and I found it unusable.
 
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CropDuster507

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I’m this close to changing my avatar to Trump and going full PSUAnon about this.

tongue in-cheek friends, but there’s a long-burn storyline here for the ages lol.

We need a leader for this borderline cult that isn’t a career message board poster or administrator. We need an outsider FOR THE PEOPLE!
 

CropDuster507

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Guys, it’s like they don’t want us to get together and share information… That should concern you all.
 
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nerfstate

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If you are referring to the visual presentation, I agree. I think that was one of the knocks against it when it changed and many, including myself, posted here more frequently. Content wise, however, On The Mats was pretty good before the changes.
If, as it appears, it lacks an ability to embed social media, it’s gonna put a hurting’ on my game, that’s for sure.
 
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Dogwelder

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I went over and payed my dollar. It's worth a try for a year. Who knows what happens then but if this board goes away I need somewhere to go for info.
But if most of us try it for a year, then it’ll be harder to break away in a year due to inertia, and due to some users having too much money. It’d be easier to break away now. If only we knew a good free chat forums site.
 

RoarLions1

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May 11, 2012
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Time will tell, I'll give anything new a chance. That said, I moved from Scout to here as my primary "home" when it was friendlier for users.

I believe a fee will change the number of posters and volume of posts dramatically. We'll know more soon.
 

GantryZ

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Jul 12, 2013
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How about reddit?
Reddit is a different experience than a traditional message board, I fear (nothing against you fine people) a lot of folks won't "get it" and will not like the drastic change in the format and presentation.

Plus there is a wrestling subreddit already and it skews super young, would be a weird cross contamination even if there was a separate subreddit for PSUWrestling.
 

nerfstate

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Yeah--it'd be a leap. Just screwing around, I created this:


Reddit is a different experience than a traditional message board, I fear (nothing against you fine people) a lot of folks won't "get it" and will not like the drastic change in the format and presentation.

Plus there is a wrestling subreddit already and it skews super young, would be a weird cross contamination even if there was a separate subreddit for PSUWrestling.
 
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nittinsc

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I tried to post on 24/7 to check things out and got a "pending approval" Tried starting a new thread for testing functionality for social media, etc. and got the same message. However, I did change my avatar, as well. Maybe that's the approval needed, don't know. Also, I went to my profile/settings several times and had to reenter my login info each time. I've been registered there since 2012.
 
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nerfstate

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well, don’t expect too much content.;) It’s mostly just a sandbox since I haven’t really used Reddit much in recent years.

I think we should look at this as an opportunity to get something even better for us.

To me, these are the primary criteria for our RFP:
  1. Free (I toyed with the rokfin thing, but if it costs a penny, it will change the culture a lot). Someone is going to pay for it, but it sure shouldn't be new users, or 1 year old users.
  2. Some gravitas: BWI has been around in various forms for a long time. My fear with something like Reddit is that it would just get lost in the noise. There needs to be a reason for people to be drawn in. Willie could do that. Or Maybe 247 or Black Shoe Diaries could. Obviously sanction from Cael, PSU, or NLWC would be great but I don’t see it happening. There's something to be said for "come for the football, stay for the HR hate."
  3. Usability: mobile first, lots of modern web trappings like embedded social media and page previews with links. Ads that don’t get too much in the way.
  4. Mods. The hidden heroes of any vibrant anonymous online community. We need ones that get it.
 
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GOLDBANGER

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Oct 22, 2013
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well, don’t expect too much content.;) It’s mostly just a sandbox since I haven’t really used Reddit much in recent years.

I think we should look at this as an opportunity to get something even better for us.

To me, these are the primary criteria for our RFP:
  1. Free (I toyed with the rokfin thing, but if it costs a penny, it will change the culture a lot). Someone is going to pay for it, but it sure shouldn't be new users, or 1 year old users.
  2. Some gravitas: BWI has been around in various forms for a long time. My fear with something like Reddit is that it would just get lost in the noise. There needs to be a reason for people to be drawn in. Willie could do that. Or Maybe 247 or Black Shoe Diaries could. Obviously sanction from Cael, PSU, or NLWC would be great but I don’t see it happening. There's something to be said for "come for the football, stay for the HR hate."
  3. Usability: mobile first, lots of modern web trappings like embedded social media and page previews with links. Ads that don’t get too much in the way.
  4. Mods. The hidden heroes of any vibrant anonymous online community. We need ones that get it.
I'm predominately a lurker on Black Shoe Diaries but their wrestling coverage and format are not bad at all. I think with more participation, BSD would be even more apt to cover wrestling, and posting is easy...so I guess it's off to Black Shoe Diaries for me....
 

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