1981 = arguably? Learn football. Laughable “analysis.”That 1981 team was phenomenal. They would have beaten any Franklin Team by multiple TDs.
Is it time for PSU fans to admit that we're actually pretty good?
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We were competitive with O$U. Did you see the game? O$U had a confluence of plays occur against a backup that led to the wide final margin.
You do realize we will make the playoffs in the expanded format?
But I get it. Franklin is horrible against top 10 teams and for those fans who expect us to be a top 4 team every year we are woefully underperforming.
For all those trying to argue against that premise it is futile. There is one key metric., win the B10 and get to the playoff on a fairly consistent basis. You can't really argue against this. We should win the B10 more than once a decade and actually make the playoffs more than never.
My prediction is what will happen in the 12 team scenario is that making the playoff will not be good enough and we need to get at a minimum to the final four every third year or even every other year and win it at every 4 -5 years.
I count 11 NFL players from the 1981 squad and 15 NFL players from the 2016 squad.
The 81 squad had some big wins. They also had 2 losses.
But I apologize for my “laughable” analysis.
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Apology accepted. Look at the teams the 1981 team defeated. And where. And then there is the fact it had HOF player on OLine, and Pro-Bowl level players elsewhere.
Could you imagine any Franklin Team going on the Road and defeating a #1 team that was probably the most talented in CFB in 1981?
As I said, laughable.
I couldn’t care less if we make the playoffs, because we don’t control that beauty contest/selection. I care about the 3 success metrics for Penn State on-field performance, because that is what we do control:
1. Beat Michigan
2. Beat Ohio State
3. Win the Conference championship.
That is what defines a successful football season for PSU. Those 3 metrics, only 3 metrics, and only THESE 3 metrics.
The playoffs are the PAYOFF for accomplishing the 3 success metrics. The other games on the schedule are only meaningful in that they are a gateway to accomplishing the 3 success metrics. NY6 bowl games are now irrelevant - glorified scrimmages where the best players eligible for the draft don’t even suit up.
”Pretty good”? Ok, but so what? 10-2 is nice, in that it beats 9-3 (and is significantly better than 7-6). But again, so? Franklin is 4-14 vs UM and OSU, and 1 for 9 in winning the conference. Frankly (pun intended), that SUX.
The 80s are over: NY Day bowl and double-digit wins are an ossified, anachronistic measure of success. There are 3, and only 3, and only THESE 3, measures of success for PSU football. Coach Franklin is abysmal in all 3. And that, folks, is the actual state of PSU football, I’m sorry to say.
I’ll be at the PSU Rutgers game - let’s kick the living bleep out of Rutgers! PSU Forever!
Michigan was a disaster game. Poor in every aspect. But Ohio State was not that good relative to us. They have 1 receiver who is super human and an O line that can pass block. They won because we made mistakes and they did not. I hope we get Alabama in the bowl game and are able to play them tough.
And I’ll take the bowl game with the weakest relative opponent, because bowl games don’t mean squat anymore, and thus we might as well play the team we have the best chance of beating. Given Franklins appalling bad bowl record (3-4), and 3 bowl losses vs SEC also-rans ( Georgia, Kentucky, Arkansa), I’m hoping for Cotton vs UCF, or Orange vs UNC. Alabama would hammer us, and I’m not so sure all Miss wouldn’t as well.
bowls are irrelevant, but if we’re in one, I want to WIN it.
bowls are irrelevant, but if we’re in one, I want to WIN it.
Lol. Going on the “road” you say as if they flew to the west coast instead of driving a couple hours to a stadium that probably had a sizable PSU crowd in attendance. (Pitt had been good for about 6 years at that point.)
I’m not detracting from the 81 squad. I listed them as arguably better than any of Franklin’s 11-win teams. But yes - I do believe McSorley, Saquon, Sanders, Gesicki, Godwin, etc. would compete with them.
Horrible against top 10 teams? That’s a very misleading stat considering nearly all of those top 10 games were against OSU and Michigan. It’s fair to say he’s horrible against OSU and Michigan when they’re in the top 10, but to say he’s horrible against top 10 teams is quite misleading. It’s not as if he’s out there losing to top 10 teams from a wide array of conferences every year. Hard to say how he would do against other top 10 teams when the only sample size available is against inner division opponents who play him every year.
You say NY6 bowl games are now irrelevant…why were they relevant before? If you had a loss and there were two undefeated teams you weren’t winning a NC no matter how well you did in your bowl game, so why did the bowl game matter then? They were playing for a higher ranking only, just like now so it doesn’t seem much has changed other than your opinion.
Because we were an independent before, and a NY Day bowl game was a meaningful metric. Once we started playing in the Big Ten, the metrics for success changed, but PSU’s program and fans did not. Partially explains our horrendous record vs the only two teams the Conference shamelessly shills for, and only 4 titles in 30 freakin seasons.
Not one member of Nittany Nation, had the conversation occurred in August of 1993, would have agreed with this statement: “After 30 seasons in the Big Ten, Penn state will only win 4 conference championships”. Most would look at you like you were a fool for saying that. But that is what has occurred, and it is an absolutely pathetic performance for the program, I’m very sorry to say.
So why did NY6 bowl games or any other bowl games matter when we were an independent? Again, if a NC is the goal then all the bowl games except one were irrelevant.
I agree that ‘81 was a very good year but it is completely laughable to think in fantasy land they would beat any modern team, let alone 2022 PSU. Today’s players are much larger and much faster. It would be mercy rule in the first half. 49-0.
Several reasons, one of which I’ve just described previously - it was an actual success metric for an independent team to go to a formerly prestigious bowl On NY Day. Others include: $$ for the program (no conference pool when you’re an independent), players PLAYING in the game irrespective of draft status, and the cache of playing on NY Day - remember, before the 1986 Fiesta Bowl, there were no dedicated 1 vs 2 bowl games - all of the NY Day bowls were conference tie-ins. There were fewer of them, too.
it was a success metric until 1993. Since then it isn’t. You seem to have trouble wrapping your hands around that concept. Hopefully, this explanation helps. But, it is reality nonetheless.
It comes down to whatever is needed to be said to throw shade on a likely 10-2, top 10 regular season with a NY6 bowl. It's a bit ridiculous. Let's review some of the arguments.
1. Playoff or bust. Ok so only 4 teams have successfull seasons? What if you go to the playoff and lose right away? Then only 2 teams had successfull seasons?
2. NY6 doesn't matter anymore. Why? Well they said so and don't want to give our young men credit.
3. Yeah 10-2 but weak schedule. Really?
a. We are the only top 15 team that has played 2 undefeated teams.
b. The collective record of those we played is better than most of the teams ranked above us. 6 of the 10 we played are 6-4 or better. 5 of the 10 we played are either currently leading their division or tied for it.
c. FPI says we are a top 10 team now and above Clemson, USC, and LSU.
d. But we haven't beaten a ranked team? Well FPI has Minnesota as #18, Purdue and Maryland are #36 and #37.
You see, no one is claiming we broke through the elite barrier. But this thread is about admitting that we are actually pretty good. Why is that so hard for some to do?
1. Playoff or bust. Ok so only 4 teams have successfull seasons? What if you go to the playoff and lose right away? Then only 2 teams had successfull seasons?
2. NY6 doesn't matter anymore. Why? Well they said so and don't want to give our young men credit.
3. Yeah 10-2 but weak schedule. Really?
a. We are the only top 15 team that has played 2 undefeated teams.
b. The collective record of those we played is better than most of the teams ranked above us. 6 of the 10 we played are 6-4 or better. 5 of the 10 we played are either currently leading their division or tied for it.
c. FPI says we are a top 10 team now and above Clemson, USC, and LSU.
d. But we haven't beaten a ranked team? Well FPI has Minnesota as #18, Purdue and Maryland are #36 and #37.
You see, no one is claiming we broke through the elite barrier. But this thread is about admitting that we are actually pretty good. Why is that so hard for some to do?
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A 6-4 team has a .600 winning pct. A 5-4 team has a .556 winning pct. A 5-5 team has a .500 winning percentage.
Ok, we’re pretty good, as I stated in a post above. So what? What does pretty good even mean? There is no objective standard for “pretty good”. For improvements to be made, there must be defined metrics. And measurement must be made versus those metrics. So, let us yet again do so:
We lost, badly, to Michigan
We lost to Ohio State AT HOME
We will not win the conference, for the 26th time in 30 seasons.
Metrics - performance measured against same. Objective conclusion: Failure. Now, if that equates to “pretty good”, then super, we’re pretty good. I would hope the program, the alums (of which I am one) and the fan base is not content with “pretty good”.
1000%. His list is ridiculous, per usual. Great, so we have played a bunch of .500 and above teams..big whoop. The B1G West is dog**** with crappy offenses, sans Purdue, who is one dimensional. Some people on here look at overall record as a huge metric...if we go 10-2 each of the next five seasons as a carbon copy of this one, losing to OSU and Mich, that is a good, but still overall disappointing. I measure the program based on our two biggest threats on the field and in recruiting...others are content annually with being almost, but not quite b/c winning is hard, lol. No doubt, improvements have been made on the OL and we have not lost a game or two against an inferior opponent which is the JF special (at least so far). At least there has been tangible improvement in areas that needed it badly. I'm very excited for the future. But, the idea that finishing 3rd in the division is an overall "success" b/c this was a "rebuilding" year is one of the funniest things I've seen on this board in awhile. No more rebuilds in CFB...not in the current climate of guys playing immediately, portal, etc. This isn't the old days of redshirting everyone and starting them junior year. "Rebuild" is an excuse.
They did matter then, and they matter now.
It's just now, the media is into painting college football players as oppressed victims, and put out the narrative that it is terrible they are subjected to playing another game that the school makes money from. And people buy into it for some reason.
Real players, real athletes play for their team, their school, and for pride. Winning a game with your team always means something.
Really? Micah Parsons didn’t play for his team. Neither did several others. Apparently the Whatever Bowl didn’t mean much to them. neither did their school or their team. In fact, Parsons is near-deified on this board, and he turned his back on the team and the school TWICE (sat out Covid season, and then left early). Other than a means to an end, what did the school mean to him?
I’ve bought into reality, and that reality is that 1989 is long past, and non-playoff bowl games are nothing more than glorified exhibition scrimmages to make $$. And that’s fine, no issue there - my issue is Nittany Nation using non-playoff bowl games as some sort of goal or measure of success. They aren’t. We had our chances at actual success and failed both times, which meant we failed at the 3rd.
Right. You would then want to fire the coach who achieved your goal.
Did you count joes wins vs mediocre teams? Why was he only a 9-3 coach for his career?
Repeating these 3 metrics over and over doesn't make it true. Those are YOUR metrics. I promise you the team has a different list of goals and those are the ones that matter.
So you think the team's goals aren't any or all of the 3 that are mentioned? LOL ok. I literally read a quote from Ji'Ayir today saying they expected to make the CFP this year. So, accomplishing the goals listed above in the thread are implied in that.
This is college football, there isn't an objective standard for anything, including the 4 team playoff selection.
They will be different, and would include these 3 but these aren't the only 3. Winning a game is obvious. They have a goal of being 1-0 every single week which includes UM and OSU, this isn't groundbreaking stuff. Whether they circle OSU and UM on the calendar or not is unknown, but given Franklin's constant stressing to focus on the week at hand I'd be surprised if they have a goal about specific opponents until that game week. The quote you just referenced about having a goal of making the playoff isn't part of ShoreLion's goal list so you pretty much just proved my point.
Right, but you can't make the playoffs (in the current format) unless PSU accomplishes at least two of the three he mentioned...they all work together
Why was joe only a 9-3 coach for his career? How would Joe's 3 win team in 2003 do against the 81 team? Who gave Sandusky a key to the lockers?
Are you looking for something deeper than there wasn't a playoff?
I would say they didn't matter back then either aside from 1 or 2 but people here get mad because they were invested in it so they can't accept that.
So joe failed 16 out of his last 19 seasons using your metrics? Isn't that underperforming?
After the 1994 season, I figured we’d own the Big Ten. Then we had four losing seasons in five years not too long after.
Respectfully Ryoder, I did watch the OSU game and while OSU let us hang around for awhile, it never felt like we were really controlling our own destiny in that game. If PSU were to have won, it would have been because the superior team didn't execute near their potential. That's why they play the games, but we should be under no illusion that PSU is close to OSU at this point in time.
RE: the current PSU program in the playoff...meh. The idea of being #10-12, 3rd in our own division, and the likelihood of losing a playoff game to a Top 5 team, on the road, isn't that exciting.
For me personally, I don't expect PSU to be in the "Top 4 every year," but let's start with the assertion that PSU should be in the conversation more than once a decade. In the JF era, PSU was in the conversation only in 2016, after 2 bad losses early in the season. A playoff would have remedied the BS "look test" nonsense that was used to choose a team PSU beat, but in the end, 2016 was the only year that PSU was in the conversation. To suggest that, 6 years later, PSU is in a worse position that prevents being competitive, is not defensible.
I like Franklin. I think he does every aspect of his job well, except actual football coaching. It's doesn't take a high football IQ to see that he gets out coached regularly. PSU wins on talent, not coaching. PSU struggles against teams of similar talent, too often squeaks out wins/or loses against well-coached teams of lesser talent, and is abysmal against teams with better talent. Good coaches enhance their team's performance through game plans and schemes that put their players in the best possible position to excel and minimize deficiencies. Good coaches get the most out of their players by coaching fundamentals and helping them minimize mental mistakes. When have you ever watched a JF coached PSU team and thought the game plan and coaching made the team better than it should have been? Honest question. If we take the Wins Above Replacement(WAR) theory from MLB, as an actual Xs & Os football coach, what is your sense of JF's WAR?
I'm not a JF hater. I don't have unrealistic expectations. But I also don't wear Blue tinted glasses and can provide a unbiased assessment of where things are. I just don't see JF fielding a team that can be "in the conversation" say, once every 4 years or so, which, as I remember it, JVP always stated as his goal, and I don't think is an unrealistic expectation for PSU, given the resources of the program. I mean at this point, forget about being in the conversation to make a run at a natl Championship, we're really not in the conversation to make a run at the B1G East once every 4 years.
I think most would be just fine with this, if there was a sense that PSU could at least contend for the B1G East regularly. That is currently not the case.
Would any fan change the state of our program with any other school besides Alabama in the SEC West? They are fighting the same battle right now. Trying to unseat the juggernaut. Since Franklin was hired, those schools have went through a carousel of coaches (LSU 4, Miss 3, Miss St 4, Ark 3, Aub 4, A&M 3). Many have the same level of tradition, facilities and have recruited well like us but it's hard to take down the giant. I'll take the odds that Franklin can get into a cycle like Georgia and be king of the hill for a period of time. Sure Kirby did it faster at Georgia but he was in the SEC East. If Penn State was in the Big Ten West for several years maybe it would have happened by now. Remember Kirby was 0-4 vs. Saban until last year. While I'd hope and continue to root for PSU to get there, I'm realistic that we won't likely become OSU or Alabama for a variety of reasons, but I am a proud fan of the team, coach and university and what they all continue to accomplish. I don't want to be any of those SEC West teams. The landscape is changing with the new playoff and likely conference realignment in some way and hope that it becomes more favorable for us.
Valid point about the divisions. If we were in the Big 10 west then we'd have been in the conference championship almost annually.
The Republicans vs Democrats debate goes on and on. Here's the deal people you either are satisfied with Franklin for delivering a top 10 team most years and getting us to NY6 bowls and are not holding his feet to the fire for not getting us to the playoff OR we think he is okay but it is not good enough and we should be making the playoff. Neither side budging on their POV so just agree to disagree. There is a third faction that want him canned but I think that is pretty small.
This is misleading. Franklin does not deliver a top ten team most years. He occasionally does. Nor does deliver a NY6 game most years. His career average is essentially 8 and 4 with no indicators State is capable of getting above the 10 game ceiling. At the same time, .600 is the floor so he'll always make a bowl game. In the end, he is our coach for the next five or six years so we are stuck with him unless he leaves so it is what it is. He doesn't earn his pay and constantly whines for more resources at the expense of every other varsity team. So long as he runs a clean program (that includes not tampering with other team's players), graduates players with meaningful degrees (there is some indications this could be becoming a problem), players stay out of trouble, he stops whining about resources (everyone knows he does) and they make progress towards competing with Ohio State and Michigan/State when they are good, he can stay, even at the salary he clearly hasn't and doesn't earn.
Some good points. Actually, this thread is full of good points and has me questioning my own.
Just one rebuttal though… a Big Ten East Championship and a run at the National Championship pretty much are the same. You don’t win our division without being in strong consideration for a playoff spot.
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