Interesting info on the 9.9

[GogglesPaizano]

I found this article on Themat.com by way of the Oky state board. Thanks Orange.

Cael absolutely has a different way of managing his scholys - only to the best - scholys must be earned. Mich, NCST, Rutgers and OSU are similar. tOSU seems to be an outlier with over 11 equivalent sholys. Mich, NC St and PSU has the lowest number of kids covered with 14. Seems to indicate to me only the top ranked recruits alone get aid offered. Maybe its starter based plus shirts. I was a bit surprised to see this on paper. What's clear is nearly 20 kids are in it for the love of the sport alone. Iowa & Iowa St really spread the money around.

You can see why if a recruit wants/needs a full he might pass on PSU.

Imagine what Cael could build if they bumped it up to 1.5 per starter 15 per team?

Enjoy

Scholarship Amounts

This website has collected some of the financial reports schools are required to file, and scholarship info is included.https://www.extrapointsmb.com/foia-directory/ Here are the scholarship amounts listed for the schools with wrestling. Youll see some are above 9.9 for what must be some sort of ...

board.themat.com

 

[Chickenman Testa]

This was a funny exchange:

22 hours ago, ionel said:
If I'm reading your numbers correctly then this indicates takes about a $30 to $40 million endowment to fully fund a successful wrestling program in the northcentral - eastern region of the country, well that doesn't include the slush fund which ya gotta have to be competitive. Oh and it may or may not include cost of facilities. Also, this would not be sufficient someplace like say Stanford.

I don't know if you need the slush fund, but you definitely need some people to believe there is a slush fund or how else can they explain uncomfortable things to themselves?

 

[McScoreley]

NC State and Michigan have the full allotment and both give 14 out also. Ohio State spreads it out a bit further at 18.

 

[El-Jefe]

Two thoughts on this:

1. This was a single report, for FY 2019. It may or may not be representative. For example, PSU had 4 returning national champs + 3 other returning AAs on the roster that year.

For comparison, FY 2021 had zero returning national champs and 2 returning AAs. Scholarship distribution was likely very different in those two years.

2. We need to be careful throwing around terms like "equivalent scholarships." This is defined by the NCAA, and no team has more than 9.9, not even Ohio State.

 

[Pocky]

Ohio State should be entitled to more scholarships because of their elite blackshirts program- the Navy Seals of the NCAA wrestling world!!

 

[Locolion]

I found this article on Themat.com by way of the Oky state board. Thanks Orange.

Cael absolutely has a different way of managing his scholys - only to the best - scholys must be earned. Mich, NCST, Rutgers and OSU are similar. tOSU seems to be an outlier with over 11 equivalent sholys. Mich, NC St and PSU has the lowest number of kids covered with 14. Seems to indicate to me only the top ranked recruits alone get aid offered. Maybe its starter based plus shirts. I was a bit surprised to see this on paper. What's clear is nearly 20 kids are in it for the love of the sport alone. Iowa & Iowa St really spread the money around.

You can see why if a recruit wants/needs a full he might pass on PSU.

Imagine what Cael could build if they bumped it up to 1.5 per starter 15 per team?

Enjoy

Scholarship Amounts

This website has collected some of the financial reports schools are required to file, and scholarship info is included.https://www.extrapointsmb.com/foia-directory/ Here are the scholarship amounts listed for the schools with wrestling. Youll see some are above 9.9 for what must be some sort of ...

board.themat.com

What does “Aid Equivalency” mean?

 

[lookleft goright]

I thought that Cael gave everyone on the team some money. It does not appear to be the case. Definitely why he has a lot of studs on the front row, but not much backing them up. It is hard to get those guys who are going to win titles to come for very little money. The lesser programs have other problems, who can they develop and who is left over for them to pick from. That is the way the world turns.

 

[lookleft goright]

I wonder if aid equivalency means things like states who give neighboring states the instate tuition automatically. I know Missouri gives Illinois the instate tuition and SDSU gives instate tuition to like 6 states that touch its borders.

 

[nitlion6]

Two thoughts on this:

1. This was a single report, for FY 2019. It may or may not be representative. For example, PSU had 4 returning national champs + 3 other returning AAs on the roster that year.

For comparison, FY 2021 had zero returning national champs and 2 returning AAs. Scholarship distribution was likely very different in those two years.

2. We need to be careful throwing around terms like "equivalent scholarships." This is defined by the NCAA, and no team has more than 9.9, not even Ohio State.

Ohio State probably has no more than 9.9, but the Brands boys do like to do things like Dan did.

 

[pointingdogsrule]

I found this article on Themat.com by way of the Oky state board. Thanks Orange.

Cael absolutely has a different way of managing his scholys - only to the best - scholys must be earned. Mich, NCST, Rutgers and OSU are similar. tOSU seems to be an outlier with over 11 equivalent sholys. Mich, NC St and PSU has the lowest number of kids covered with 14. Seems to indicate to me only the top ranked recruits alone get aid offered. Maybe its starter based plus shirts. I was a bit surprised to see this on paper. What's clear is nearly 20 kids are in it for the love of the sport alone. Iowa & Iowa St really spread the money around.

You can see why if a recruit wants/needs a full he might pass on PSU.

Imagine what Cael could build if they bumped it up to 1.5 per starter 15 per team?

Enjoy

Scholarship Amounts

This website has collected some of the financial reports schools are required to file, and scholarship info is included.https://www.extrapointsmb.com/foia-directory/ Here are the scholarship amounts listed for the schools with wrestling. Youll see some are above 9.9 for what must be some sort of ...

board.themat.com

Does "Vodka" know about thus???

 

[GogglesPaizano]

I wonder if aid equivalency means things like states who give neighboring states the instate tuition automatically. I know Missouri gives Illinois the instate tuition and SDSU gives instate tuition to like 6 states that touch its borders.

I would have thought Aid equivalency would have included wrestlers on the team receiving scholy aid for such things as achademics, ROTC, ... anything other than for athletics. It seems not, at least for ROTC as we have Manville and are still under the 9.9.

Such a shame that football has so many scholys given to 'depth' players that never see the field. Or as a contrast a team like Alabama loaded with 4-5 star kids that get 4 year full rides, where more than a few only see the field their senior year. What would football look like with only 21.9 ignoring special teams?

9.9 is a joke. Let's see women's wrestling adopted nation wide and up the scholys for both to 15 to avoid any Title ix issues. Its only money

 

[jschrantz]

I would have thought Aid equivalency would have included wrestlers on the team receiving scholy aid for such things as achademics, ROTC, ... anything other than for athletics. It seems not, at least for ROTC as we have Manville and are still under the 9.9.

Such a shame that football has so many scholys given to 'depth' players that never see the field. Or as a contrast a team like Alabama loaded with 4-5 star kids that get 4 year full rides, where more than a few only see the field their senior year. What would football look like with only 21.9 ignoring special teams?

9.9 is a joke. Let's see women's wrestling adopted nation wide and up the scholys for both to 15 to avoid any Title ix issues. Its only money

where would this $$$ come from? Collegiate wrestling would likely be reduced to 20 teams or eliminated.

 

[Lyons212]

I thought that Cael gave everyone on the team some money. It does not appear to be the case. Definitely why he has a lot of studs on the front row, but not much backing them up. It is hard to get those guys who are going to win titles to come for very little money. The lesser programs have other problems, who can they develop and who is left over for them to pick from. That is the way the world turns.

No college program has much backing up the starters. Reality is, your starters have to me national qualifier quality and preferably all-americans. No program has enough scholarships available to have backups capable of scoring points at NCAA's other than pulling a redshirt off a stud recruit.

 

[manatree]

9.9 is a joke. Let's see women's wrestling adopted nation wide and up the scholys for both to 15 to avoid any Title ix issues. Its only money

Could be worse. Track & Field AND Cross Country only get 12.6 spread out between both.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

where would this $$$ come from? Collegiate wrestling would likely be reduced to 20 teams or eliminated.

Well Cael has expressed the same sentiment, so there is that.

 

[Brian LB-U]

Would appear Iowa may have reverted back to the Gable Accounting practices. “Not compliant”.

 

[Dogwelder]

Could be worse. Track & Field AND Cross Country only get 12.6 spread out between both.

How many events do track and field plus cross country together have? More than 13?

 

[Str8DBLz]

What this doesnt show is academic scholarships or ROTC

 

[Lyons212]

How many events do track and field plus cross country together have? More than 13?

19 Individual events plus 2 relays. To be fair, some athletes complete in multiple events and some are specialists in one event.

 

[manatree]

How many events do track and field plus cross country together have? More than 13?

There are 18 individual events and two relays in outdoor track, 14 & 2 relays for indoor.

As to how many athletes you need, it’s hard to say as you are allowed to compete in more than one event. Don’t know if the NCAA has a limit on how many events one person can compete in. Need at least two for each of the individual events for scoring a dual, tri, or quad meet. Need at least four for a relay team. Bare minimum, I think you’d need at least 20-22 for each dual meet. PSU track & field has 44 listed on their online men’s roster, and I think that would include indoor, outdoor, & cross country.

 

[PAHURDLER]

How many events do track and field plus cross country together have? More than 13?

With track and field, multiple athletes on the same team can score in the same event. In fact, that’s usually how you win your conference meet. Depth at the top, not just a few champions.

And 44 is a pretty low number for a track team. It seems to be how Penn State rolls some years. But our track team is down quite a bit right now.

 

[Lyons212]

There are 18 individual events and two relays in outdoor track, 14 & 2 relays for indoor.

As to how many athletes you need, it’s hard to say as you are allowed to compete in more than one event. Don’t know if the NCAA has a limit on how many events one person can compete in. Need at least two for each of the individual events for scoring a dual, tri, or quad meet. Need at least four for a relay team. Bare minimum, I think you’d need at least 20-22 for each dual meet. PSU track & field has 44 listed on their online men’s roster, and I think that would include indoor, outdoor, & cross country.

19 if you count the Decathlon/Heptathlon. I don't believe they even have dual/tri meets anymore, they go to Invitationals.

 

[86PSUPaul]

I have asked before, what is the actual cost to a college for adding someone with tuition aid? Does a prof get more money for adding a person to their room? Room and board does have extra costs, but I say it really costs nothing extra to add 100 extra students, tuition wise, with an enrollment of 50,000, or whatever PSU is now.

 

[Dogwelder]

I have asked before, what is the actual cost to a college for adding someone with tuition aid? Does a prof get more money for adding a person to their room? Room and board does have extra costs, but I say it really costs nothing extra to add 100 extra students, tuition wise, with an enrollment of 50,000, or whatever PSU is now.

It would cost Amazon nothing to give me a biweekly paycheck for free. And yet ...

 

[86PSUPaul]

It would cost Amazon nothing to give me a biweekly paycheck for free. And yet ...

I know you are just being a wise guy, and I respect that. But you are certainly wrong since cash is a commodity, yet sitting in a seat that is already paid for, in a room in a building that is paid for, listening to a paid for professor, what actually limited commodity is being consumed? Yes, there is a number of students that would mean more limited resources hAving to be added, and that number would vary by school, but in general adding a few hundred students would not really cost anything. Heck, I even see it adding a small amount of money in fees, or book sales, or other incidentals.
Now room and board is different since there are limited dorm rooms that fill each year and food is eaten in the dining halls.
But to say that schools could not afford it make no sense to me. Someone convince me I am wrong. Point out the errors in my simplistic analysis.

 

[El-Jefe]

Now room and board is different since there are limited dorm rooms that fill each year and food is eaten in the dining halls.

That would merely push a few more students into apartments, or drive schools into building more dorms (and at PSU, such capital projects are largely funded by Harrisburg).

In any case, were discussing the economic definition of marginal cost. Any student on partial scholarship, or on full ride where the scholarship is fully endowed, is a net benefit to the school.

The only place where this isn't true is the world of Funny Accounting, where costs and benefits get allocated to different components and nobody looks at the whole.

 

[Dogwelder]

..., yet sitting in a seat that is already paid for, in a room in a building that is paid for, listening to a paid for professor, what actually limited commodity is being consumed?

Oxygen? Maybe with too many students in a classroom, they will start falling dead out of their seats? I’m probably wrong. I don’t have a better answer.

 

[PSUranger]

I think it costs every student in that room. Let's say there are 100 students and the total cost is $100. Each student's debt should be one dollar. If you put ten more students in there, each students debt should be 91 cents but you are still charging 100 of them a dollar. Unfair to non scholly students.

 

[82bordeaux]

but I say it really costs nothing extra to add 100 extra students,

You forget that they would then have to add 200 administrators.

 

[Bob_Anderson]

I know you are just being a wise guy, and I respect that. But you are certainly wrong since cash is a commodity, yet sitting in a seat that is already paid for, in a room in a building that is paid for, listening to a paid for professor, what actually limited commodity is being consumed? Yes, there is a number of students that would mean more limited resources hAving to be added, and that number would vary by school, but in general adding a few hundred students would not really cost anything. Heck, I even see it adding a small amount of money in fees, or book sales, or other incidentals.
Now room and board is different since there are limited dorm rooms that fill each year and food is eaten in the dining halls.
But to say that schools could not afford it make no sense to me. Someone convince me I am wrong. Point out the errors in my simplistic analysis.

according to the latest NCAA filing from PSU (2018-2019 academic year), each full scholarship costs the athletic department ~$55k. The University charges the AD for these scholarships, there is a real transfer of money. Since the AD is self-sustaining, this money comes from donations, ticket sales, TV revenue, etc.

Probably not the info you were looking for, but this is not a case of "schools" affording the extra ships, it's the AD's that are footing the bill. Looking at this situation from a high level, schools and ADs should probably be viewed as two separate entities.

 

[86PSUPaul]

according to the latest NCAA filing from PSU (2018-2019 academic year), each full scholarship costs the athletic department ~$55k. The University charges the AD for these scholarships, there is a real transfer of money. Since the AD is self-sustaining, this money comes from donations, ticket sales, TV revenue, etc.

Probably not the info you were looking for, but this is not a case of "schools" affording the extra ships, it's the AD's that are footing the bill. Looking at this situation from a high level, schools and ADs should probably be viewed as two separate entities.

I totally understand, but as you say, not the way I am looking at it. I am talking true incremental cost the university pays for an extra student, tuition only. I say it is nil, but of course that is not how the University looks at it.

 

[Dogwelder]

I totally understand, but as you say, not the way I am looking at it. I am talking true incremental cost the university pays for an extra student, tuition only. I say it is nil, but of course that is not how the University looks at it.

There is some ‘paradox’-of-the-heap-like fallacy going on here. Our heads might explode if we’re not careful.

Take any 50,000 people. Any one of them ~can claim, “I’m the free one!” Then any two. Then any three. Then any 100. But all 50,000 can’t say “I’m the free one”! And even the first one—can he really claim to be the free one? What gives him the right? Why is he so special? In other words, the guy who says “I’m the free one” has no greater claim to truth than another guy who says, “you are not the free one”. In fact the other guy, the naysayer, has a far greater claim to truth, statistically, because he’s just saying “you are not the lottery winner”.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

There is some ‘paradox’-of-the-heap-like fallacy going on here. Our heads might explode if we’re not careful.

Take any 50,000 people. Any one of them ~can claim, “I’m the free one!” Then any two. Then any three. Then any 100. But all 50,000 can’t say “I’m the free one”! And even the first one, can he really claim to be the free one? What gives him the right? Why is he so special? In other words, the guy who says “I’m the free one” has no greater claim to truth than another guy who says, “you are not the free one”.

From what I have been told of the federal tax code, 50% of the country is saying 'I'm the free one'?

 

[Dogwelder]

From what I have been told of the federal tax code, 50% of the country is saying 'I'm the free one'?

You better work harder, Goggles! I’m depending on your tax contribution! My road don’t build itself!

 

[86PSUPaul]

There is some ‘paradox’-of-the-heap-like fallacy going on here. Our heads might explode if we’re not careful.

Take any 50,000 people. Any one of them ~can claim, “I’m the free one!” Then any two. Then any three. Then any 100. But all 50,000 can’t say “I’m the free one”! And even the first one—can he really claim to be the free one? What gives him the right? Why is he so special? In other words, the guy who says “I’m the free one” has no greater claim to truth than another guy who says, “you are not the free one”. In fact the other guy, the naysayer, has a far greater claim to truth, statistically, because he’s just saying “you are not the lottery winner”.

Point taken, I am strictly addressing the statement that Universities cannot afford it. Under the current accounting rules it is accurate, but the University could find a way if they truly wanted to and changed how they billed their AD’s, and maybe with less AD admins....

 

[Dogwelder]

Point taken, I am strictly addressing the statement that Universities cannot afford it. Under the current accounting rules it is accurate, but the University could find a way if they truly wanted to and changed how they billed their AD’s, and maybe with less AD admins....

“If” — Lacedaemonians

 

[PSU Mike]

There is some ‘paradox’-of-the-heap-like fallacy going on here. Our heads might explode if we’re not careful.

Take any 50,000 people. Any one of them ~can claim, “I’m the free one!” Then any two. Then any three. Then any 100. But all 50,000 can’t say “I’m the free one”! And even the first one—can he really claim to be the free one? What gives him the right? Why is he so special? In other words, the guy who says “I’m the free one” has no greater claim to truth than another guy who says, “you are not the free one”. In fact the other guy, the naysayer, has a far greater claim to truth, statistically, because he’s just saying “you are not the lottery winner”.

We need to converse over a cocktail someday, dog.