I don't understand

Discussion in 'Test/Politics Board' started by PhillipintheValley, Jun 4, 2020.

  1. PhillipintheValley

    PhillipintheValley Well-Known Member
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    I am constantly amazed at people who take this all so lightly, so easily setting aside the safety concerns that are legitimate. People can downplay the seriousness of this pandemic, but I'm tired of dancing around it. It is sheer ignorance not to take it seriously. It is folly. It is easy for people to downplay the significance and the seriousness of this if you're not responsible for the well being and safety of a community. Yes people the age of the typical college students, especially healthy and fit athletes have a small chance of dying from CV-19. But they don't live in a bubble that prevents them from spreading it to more vulnerable populations. They exist in a larger community and can endanger family, friends, coaches, faculty, staff, and other people that are more likely to suffer adverse consequences if they contract CV-19.

    Today, we surpassed a full Beaver Stadium of people who have passed in this country because of this pandemic and yet some treat it as if it is nothing. And that's with social distancing in place. Imagine what it would have been without those measures. That's what we are facing in the fall. It has not and will not go away until we have a vaccine or treatment. We are benefiting from the warmer weather now, and that's great. I agree that we can't be shut down forever. I'm not advocating for that. But to poo poo legitimate safety measures being put in place to allow this program and this country to reopen, to say it is no big deal, is stupidity. People here claim to be Penn State fans. Well, all the people at Penn State, our great faculty and researchers, who know wtf their talking about are telling us what we need to do to reopen safely, and limit as much as possible, potential adverse consequences. We should listen to them.

    If you're truly a fan of Penn State football, think about his. The current guidance if you have a PUI (person under investigation - suspected of or eventually confirmed to have CV-19) is that all people in close contact with that person must quarantine for 14 days. What would happen to this team if, I don't know, Sean Clifford became a PUI during the season? He would have to quarantine. All those in close contact with him (those who have been within 6 feet of him for more than 15 minutes) also have to quarantine for 14 days. How many coaches and players would that be? Ten, twenty, fifty? Would Penn State be able to field a team? Then, each time another person in the program becomes a PUI, you go through the same process. There goes the season? So even if you foolishly think this is all blown out of proportion, even if you think it is just the flu, if you care about Penn State and/or Penn State football, you should want the University and the football program to take every reasonable precaution so that we can have a season.

    Penn State wants to reopen. I'm certain of it and have said so previously. My personal opinion is that Dr. Barron has already decided that and the decision on the 15th is more about how we do it and not if we do it. The only way we don't, is if he receives information that puts into question the University's ability to do it safely. I don't expect that to be the case. That's why we are doing this in a thoughtful and cautious way - to ensure we can reopen and stay open. One more thing. I play a small part in making sure Penn State can reopen. If any of you have similar responsibility for the safety and welfare of others, whether that be employees, students or customers, think what will happen to your business if you were to take this lightly, not exercise due diligence, and someone gets sick or dies on your watch. How would you feel if this responsibility fell onto your shoulders?
     
    1 PhillipintheValley, Jun 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  2. CFett

    CFett Well-Known Member
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    Lot of logic in your post. Please take it elsewhere.
     
  3. PhillipintheValley

    PhillipintheValley Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, don't know what I was thinking. :(
     
  4. n1tlion

    n1tlion Well-Known Member
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    This is a typical @berg3438 psu basketball thread post length...congratulations
     
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  5. Nate Bauer/BWI Staff

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    A price is always paid for arrogance, whether it’s direct and immediate, or indirect and eventually.

    The university and this community are in good hands, and we are grateful for it.
     
  6. Papa Smurf

    Papa Smurf Well-Known Member
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    Is this where I can find out what time the lots open for the Blue/White Game. I’ll hang up and listen. Thanks!
     
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  7. PSU65

    PSU65 Well-Known Member
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    That’s the problem-you were thinking. Cut it out.
     
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  8. Ceasar

    Ceasar Well-Known Member
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    That is a great post, Phillip, and I mean that sincerely. But I am not sure what prompted it. I don't think people fail to take the pandemic seriously. I do believe most people, regardless of thier ideology, have now seen enough to cause them to belive it is time to reopen the country. As you say, we must take precautions. But the scenarios you outlined are not unique to PSU football. I work in an office with around 500 other people. What are the odds one person is going to get COVID and others will then have to isolate? My co-workers are no less valuable than PSU football players and, since they are older, are actually more vulnerable. But that can't prevent us from reopening, otherwise we will never reopen as a vaccine is at least months away and even then, we cannot force people to be vaccinated, so some will still be at risk.
    Nate used the word arrogant and I am not sure the context in which that was meant but I don't believe it is arrogant to question. I had a great Professor at PSU who taught us to question everything, especially when it comes from those with power. I think that is good advice to everyone. For the most part I trust my government regardless of who is in power. But I also recognize the CDC told us masks do not help, then reversed and said they do. They said the virus can be spread from surfaces, then said it can't. I have no problem with those mistakes but the lesson I take from it is we should all be humble enough to acknoweldge we may not know it all. I think we should also recognize that this pandemic, at least in the USA, has been modeled based on the experience of NYC and NJ, the two most densely populated places in the USA. What has happened there is not what is happening in Potters Mills and Boalsburg and we should not be afraid to point that out.
    In one respect PSU is very fortunate. There are other parts of the country that have reopened very successfully. Colorado, with a D Governor, has done a fantastic job and should be a model. FL and GA have also done very well. I know many like to think of those states as if they are straight out of Deliverance but maybe we can learn from their experiences. Remember when GA allowed nail salons to reopen and there was near universal outrage over this seemingly reckless decision? Seems like it has worked out just fine.
    IMO, and this is not intended to be political at all, PA leaders have done a very poor job in handling this issue. When our leaders tell us it is safe to put COVID patients in nursing homes, and then one of those leaders takes her own mother out of a nursing home, that does not inspire confidence and a reasonable person may question if we should really accept everything we are told as Gospel. A few days ago the Governor attended a rally and stood side by side with hundreds of others, in blatant disregard for the very "guidelines" he has imposed on everyone else for months. Do the rules apply to all of us or just to the rest of us? If the Governor is okay with that behavior that he participated in, why should we have any qualms at all about packing Beaver Stadium or having 100 kids in a weight room?
    My point is there are many issues involved when we debate reopening this country, of which reopening universities and playing sports is one component. I don't think it is wrong, or arrogant, for people to have differing opinions. There are tens of millions of people in this country whose lives have been destroyed by the economic fallout fron the pandemic. They are entitrled to have an opinon based on their experiences. I close with one observation. Every single decision that is made at the federal, state and local levels regarding reopening has one thing in common - the decision is being made by people who have a regular paycheck coming in. They have suffered very little consequence from what has happened. IMHO this has influenced the decision making, at times, to be very arrogant and has conveyed a sense of "keep the peasants away from me" mentality. Maybe in State College you guys don't encounter this, but in south central PA it is an undeniable fact.
     
  9. Countrylion

    Countrylion Well-Known Member
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    The entire planet cannot stop forever. I encourage anyone who feels they are in grave danger from this virus to stay away from everything and everybody. The rest have to be permitted to start life again. Thus it is proper for the University to do what it is doing. The University has a difficult balancing act but it is on us as individuals to make the proper decisions for our own situation.
     
  10. Dragons 62

    Dragons 62 Well-Known Member
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    Outstanding Ceasar
     
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  11. DavidM

    DavidM Well-Known Member
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    Your first sentence is wrong: younger and healthier people can get very sick, experience some long-term organ damage, and some can die. And your next two sentences bring a wonderful politically partisan perspective to the discussion. Thanks for that. PhillipintheValley's post was written with you and others here in mind, and you drove right over it.
     
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  12. scottpsurules

    scottpsurules Well-Known Member
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    Kudos Ceasar, that is a truly great and reasonable post!
     
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  13. tgar

    tgar Well-Known Member
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    @PhillipintheValley , Really solid post. Today is a New starting point and every day hereafter another new starting point with new data and new technology for guidance. I believe the University will remain tapped in and on top of things as developments unfold. What is the reality today may be completely different in 3 months and the University community will do their best to continue to open safely and accommodate as many folks as possible safely once the team takes the field for kickoff.

    Developments with this virus could get better or they could get worse, nobody here knows. The University has a big responsibility for getting each decision correct moving forward. Thanks for being a voice of reason. Same for the businesses in town.

    For those still engaged in the daily statistics, there are approximately 15 states where cases are increasing and 35 where they are Level or shrinking including Pennsylvania ( shrinking steadily ) but not all fans, students, and players come just from Pennsylvania Or those areas in Pennsylvania with a light load like Potters Mills.

    We all want to see a full stadium, folks hanging Out of the windows at Pickles and a sidewalk full of people on a Friday afternoon enjoying shopping, people watching, and partying ( and the Cheerleaders, definitely the cheerleaders and Dance Team ).

    The UPMC article released yesterday discussed the virus is currently weakening. In the past couple of weeks there have been articles released discussing this change from Arizona, Italy and UPMC, good news. As of now, everyone needs to remain patient and in the end accept what the reality of the situation truly is. Let’s hope for the best for the team, the University, the town and the season.

    BTW, in the rolling last 14 day average models:

    Florida and Texas are increasing.

    Georgia and Colorado are staying level.

    Pennsylvania And New Jersey are decreasing.

    hopefully the virus continues to weaken and new technologies have an impact as well.
     
    13 tgar, Jun 5, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
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  14. nitneelyin

    nitneelyin Well-Known Member
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    Can anyone hear tell me the last time anyone gave someone the flu and that person died from it? A lot do, every year, and they must have gotten it from someone. Were these carriers held responsible for their actions of going to work sick or visiting an older relative and ultimately passing on the germs and causing their illness and possible death? Did they have to isolate so they didn't do this? Did everyone they had 15 minutes of contact have to isolate also?
    Their are many communicable diseases and colds and flus are probably primary among them. And there is no doubt people die from catching these. How do we value life and say continue to come to work with the flu and possibly cause the death of someone versus this virus. One can argue that the Covid virus is worse, but tell that to the person who caught the flu from you and then died.
    This is a very slippery slop my friends and one we need to tread very carefully.
     
  15. tgar

    tgar Well-Known Member
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    Just one question for everyone to ponder:

    what happens if an outbreak is traced to the Ramada ( let’s say 100 people become infected from a couple of carriers from New Jersey that partied in the bar until 2:00 AM Friday night ) from the Iowa game weekend and on Friday of the Ohio State weekend the Ramada is told to shut down because of sick employees after tracing and told to deep clean everything and you are staying there?
     
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  16. cjflyfish

    cjflyfish Well-Known Member
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  17. tgar

    tgar Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, good news. This phenomenon is being observed pretty more and more everywhere it has peaked. As a doctor mentioned to me this morning, still lots to learn about the behavior of this virus which wasn’t supposed to be in humans but somehow managed to get there and has only been around for 6 months. We have lived with viruses for thousands and thousands of years, this is a new one. Lots to learn.
     
  18. BrianS

    BrianS Well-Known Member
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    Phillip, my dear friend, MORE people die from the YEARLY flu than those who have died with the Chinese Flu!!! Plus, numbers were added to the total by stupid rules, like, if you died of heart disease, but, had a "trace" of covid-19, then it went to the total of the CHINESE FLU! Don't fall for the FAKE NEWS!!!
    Once again, more people died from the yearly flu, than the CHINESE FLU!
     
  19. jlewis2232

    jlewis2232 Well-Known Member
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    Interesting chart showing the history of pandemics. It's not fair to say that we don't take them seriously. They are all serious. We are fortunate to have the medical care and science we have today, no doubt because of the past. COVID 19 not even close to the deadliest. Take reasonable precautions and do what is best for you. Let us make our own decisions. Look at the times and durations. These were not generally cured either yet you were probably not worried about them dating back centuries. Most develop immunity, which has its own course of development and changes over time.

    https://www.visualcapitalist.com/history-of-pandemics-deadliest/
     
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  20. dmdpsu

    dmdpsu Well-Known Member
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    You're the type that doesn't like hearing the truth, especially if it affects your political stance.
    Why don't you take yourself elsewhere?

    If you don't want to read some logic relating to these unpresidented times, go stick your head in the sand and be a do nothing.
     
  21. Lion10

    Lion10 Well-Known Member
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    If I could like this twice, I would.
     
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  22. eclionfan

    eclionfan Well-Known Member
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    And nothing happens in isolation. Suicides are up along with other mental health issues, childhood immunizations are way down causing fears of a measles outbreak, people are not being screened for oncologic diseases and delaying treatment which directly correlate to increased mortality and deaths from CV diseases (heart attack and stroke) have increased because people were afraid to go to the ER.

    We will have our own very good test here in Sate College soon. More than a thousand people participated in a protest here last weekend. There was no social distancing, many, if not most, wore masks and lots and lots of yelling and screaming. Sounds a bit like what Beaver Stadium may look like during a game. The results, along with possible second wave in the fall, will inform my decision on game attendance.
     
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  23. tugrjs

    tugrjs Well-Known Member
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    I take the pandemic very seriously. What I need from our govern
     
  24. Bloomnit

    Bloomnit Well-Known Member
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    I think the thing I struggle with with a lot of the candor surrounding this issue is that a lot of people believe themselves to be operating upon a preponderance of sound and albeit high fidelity information, where, even months and months into this pandemic, the surest of things are anything but assured.

    The statement "I am constantly amazed at people who take this all so lightly" assumes two false narratives: One, that people skeptical of the effectiveness of lock downs operate on a platform of callous indifference with a blatant disregard for the well-being of others, and second, what you have identified at people taking this lightly is based upon the fundamental idea that the set of information you have come to to arrive at that conclusion was arrived upon with a degree of scientific rigor that those who are more skeptical ignored or do not posses.

    There are many reasonable precautions that have proven their effectiveness over the course of this pandemic, however there are many elements and courses of action that are being implemented that have yet to prove that. We can hope that treatment and vaccines are robust and have the intended effect that you hope for, but there is a possibility that neither happens. Penn State has many great researchers and academics, however they are not polymaths individuals, and their contributions must be added to the already existing body of knowledge, which is using multi-variate information to guide sound decision making in the processes of determine public health initiatives. Researchers, as individuals, do not possess enough information individually to simply "know what they are talking about" without any sort of skepticism or verifiable results. This is an appeal to authority fallacy, one that becomes particularly problematic during a period of time where approaches must be applied in real-time. It is also entirely reasonable to question the effectiveness of some approaches, for no other reason than we are in a period of a living experiment, where we don't possess the time to be able to work these processes in a lab.

    There's nothing positive that can come out of casting aspersions on people's motives. Individuals are going to have values systems that place an enhanced emphasis on different variables that possess more meaning from, and the relative value of those things is going to be determined by their individual perspectives. That might amaze you, but it shouldn't surprise you.

    Penn state has a plan. Is it an ironclad and flawless approach? Certainly not, and legitimately cannot be expected to given the circumstances. However it is the plan they are going forward with, and time will tell in determining whether or not those decisions will be well founded. It may end up being overkill, it may be that they didn't take nearly enough precautions. But today? Everyone is working off information that they have, and that's not nearly enough.
     
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  25. tugrjs

    tugrjs Well-Known Member
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    I tak
     
  26. BlueBand

    BlueBand Well-Known Member
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    The next time there’s a tornado warning, don’t take cover. Stay outdoors, go about your business, don’t go to the basement or an interior room. More people die from the flu every year then die in tornados! Don’t fall for the fake news! :rolleyes:
     
  27. tugrjs

    tugrjs Well-Known Member
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    I take the pandemic very seriously. What I need from our government is to educate me on the dangers of the pandemic and the steps I need to take to protect myself. I do not need our government running my life or taking my civil liberties away. I believe in personal responsibility. Every life is precious, but ultimately each of us are responsible for our own actions and behaviors. Open up the economy now, and lets move on with our lives. Those who choose to live recklessly are making their own decisions. If I see people acting recklessly I will stay away from them, and I will continue to take all precautions to protect myself.
     
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  28. lionville

    lionville Well-Known Member
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    The reality is that no one really knows with 100% certainty what will happen 1,2,3, 6 months or more from now.
    Just today, I read stories about the increase in cases in multiple states (no reference to the increase in cases vs. increase in testing), and the virus is weakening. Can both of these be happening? I suppose. But the bottom line is we just don't know much at this time.

    We all need to respect this virus, prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.
     
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  29. BlueBand

    BlueBand Well-Known Member
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    I think there are two things going on. The first is what we were warned about: flattening the curve would work, and some people would use that as proof that we didn’t need to do it in the first place.

    The second is that if something isn’t affecting someone directly, they don’t see it as a problem. I get it. If you’re in a state, or area, not hard hit, it seems like this is all overblown. I think there’s a false sense of security about how far this has spread in many states. I suspect things were shut down before it really took hold. Certain cities with high international travel got hit first. That makes sense. Then it started to spread locally.

    I live in a town of about 30K not far from NYC. We’ve had 75 deaths from COVID-19 in about 3 months. If you translate that to the US population, that would be 800K deaths in 3 months. If you do similar math using NYC population and deaths, it would translate to over 650K deaths nationwide in 3 months. And that’s aside from all the people who recovered, but we’re sick enough to miss work, or even ended up in the hospital. Even if you’re someone who believes those numbers are somehow inflated (and I can show you a number of reasons why they are probably undercounted), those are big numbers at half that rate.

    What worries me, and we may not see it until the fall or winter, is a second wave in areas not hard hit. Without extensive testing, we don’t know how many people were exposed, and there could be a lot more vulnerable people out there in many areas. This focus on age also concerns me. It may not be age, per se, but the underlying health problems that often occur with again. We’ve seen how high blood pressure, obesity and some other diseases make your chances of getting severely ill worse. Well, guess what? Those are problems with younger people too, more and more. And the states hardest hit so far just so happen to be mostly states with the lowest rates of obesity. If obesity and related diseases are a marker for potential COVID related illness, what happens in those other states with higher obesity rates when it takes hold and really spreads? Will the average age of those who die start dropping? I think people assume it’s already spread in those states and they just didn’t get sick. I’m not so sure about that.

    I’m not advocating everything stay shut down. But we do need to be smart about what reopens and what doesn’t, and that people aren’t so cavalier about maintaining social distancing, wearing masks, etc.

    Just my opinion.
     
  30. Bessmoney

    Bessmoney Well-Known Member
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    [​IMG]
     
  31. BBrown

    BBrown Well-Known Member
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    [​IMG]
     
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  32. Hardslider21

    Hardslider21 Well-Known Member
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    I visit all the board of our fellow B1G teams & many others that are considered power schools. I read a lot of piece on the financial shortfalls of Universities across the country from D1 to D3. I read thru long-standing threads on the effects to cities & college towns in regards to should students be allowed to return. What about the danger & risks to faculties & the older population in all these places.

    The opinions vary so greatly it’s mind blowing.

    Every university needs to get students back. The WHY is abundantly clear, it’s the tens of millions of dollars collected from their sports programs. So it doesn’t matter if it’s the administration of Penn State or Boise. Without football & the money from the tv contracts. Things in these college cities will be very different come 2021.

    We are already seeing many & by many roughly 40% of schools already are eliminating cost. Both educational & sports, that is just the start of things if football doesn’t happen.

    Like most college town the residents enjoy the students & seriously depends on them to support the local economy. The university’s pay a lot of local tax so it help keep the property tax lower for residents also. Several posters including Nate, Nuke and Ras have mentioned the rent for business space is high so online classes means less students. Which leads to less places in town for residents to enjoy not just the kids. Budget cuts mean less faculty members will be needed, reducing course opportunities & options overall.

    So we have to decide, and I understand both sides of the argument. Football is needed to make universities financially stable but it comes with a risk to people’s health.

    I’m not sure what the answer is here. You either risk coaches, faculty, students & residents health. Or You don’t play, & risk potentially losing half of your sports programs, 1/4 of the faculty & 1/2 of the local businesses.


    Food for thought


    Now back to enjoying my 3 month vacation from here.

    Peace Out
    Bill #WeAre
     
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  33. eclionfan

    eclionfan Well-Known Member
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    The data is crystal clear, it is age. With age come underlying conditions.

    In Pennsylvania:

    Zero deaths below the age of 25
    70% of deaths above the age of 75
    88% of deaths above the age of 65
    Almost half of deaths in nursing homes and hospice. We can reduce the death rate significantly by focusing on the nursing homes.
     
  34. Paruffus

    Paruffus Well-Known Member
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    Read 'UNREPORTED TRUTHS' by Alex Berenson.
     
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  35. DandyDonII

    DandyDonII Well-Known Member
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    I think Phillip and Caesar both put together thoughtful posts (even if they seem to disagree in certain respects)
    It's not an easy issue, I think the shelter in place orders were important in the slowing down of virus, it was something that was killing people and it was novel. Shutting down was the easy part.
    This sounds like a horrible thing to say, but, because it is killing such a small percentage of people, you can't expect the businesses to stay shut down for 6 mos or a year though. I know it sounds harsh, but the economic damage isn't just economic it affects people both mentally and physically.
    Hopefully people have taken this time to figure out how to protect the elderly and those that have issues that make them more susceptible to the virus while allowing the mass majority of people to make a living. Our politicians are generally idiots however (both sides David), so they will probably botch it in the end anyway.
     
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  36. LionLaw

    LionLaw Well-Known Member
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    Right on brother! These are truly the first unpresidented times. And I mean that literally.
     
  37. Nate Bauer/BWI Staff

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    This is a good thread, mostly with blatant politics out of the equation.

    A few things that interest me:

    1) I don't think anyone, at least not within the BWI community, is against Penn State football coming back.

    2) My guess is the overwhelming majority of people here are in favor of erring on the side of caution in proceeding with a return.

    3) The people complaining about the precautions that are being taken by the football program, or university, aren't in charge and don't have a seat at the table to influence how those operations proceed.

    STEP, I think, was pretty clumsily rolled out and implemented. But I think it provided some instruction to the reality that Penn State football is a product that generates massive demand when it is winning.

    I suspect that there are going to be some very frustrated and upset people here over the inability to attend all, many, or potentially any football games in the fall. There will be angry emails and letters about personal choice and freedom and allowing those who want to take risks to do so. Frankly, we might be in the same boat depending on how they decide to handle media availabilities in the fall.

    All that said, I also suspect that while Penn State will be sensitive to all of those concerns and frustrations, Penn State will also conclude that the market of consumers for its product will remain flush in the aftermath of this, and will operate as it feels is in the best interest of its students, its student-athletes, its employees, and the community.

    As always, through balanced and measured approaches.
     
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  38. BlueBand

    BlueBand Well-Known Member
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    In NJ, they just released numbers showing “only” half the deaths in NJ are above 65.

    I agree that nursing homes were not protected like they should have been. My concern is, as I stated, that we shut down before the virus really spread and took hold in most states. Which is good. But it also means we really don’t know what will happen when it does spread in those states, and if their experience will be different.

    There’s focus on the fact it’s hitting minority populations harder. We don’t know if there is a genetic reason, but another reason could be poverty and poor health. What happens when it fully hits poor, rural populations? Will the distance keep it at bay? Or will gathering in churches and restaurants negate that?

    The European strain seems deadlier than the one from Asia. It might be slowing in the warmer weather, and it might be becoming less deadly. But we don’t know what will happen when the weather gets colder, and it further mutates. It could get deadlier. It could become like the flu where prior exposure doesn’t protect you. We do know it’s not going to disappear, and there’s a lot we don’t know yet, so caution is warranted.
     
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  39. BBrown

    BBrown Well-Known Member
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    LOL.
     
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  40. AngryOtter42

    AngryOtter42 Administrator
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    Nate, I think it’s safe to say that every P5 football team is in the same boat. All appear to be doing the same, relatively speaking, when it comes to football and getting kids back on campus. Alabama had five kids test positive as soon as they arrived on campus, yet they are still going full speed ahead with the necessary precautions. Doesn’t it appear that the big boy programs don’t want to be left behind per se?
     

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