https://www.yahoo.com/gma/section-b...ong-storm-113032054--abc-news-topstories.html
Ugh.
Step? Looking forward to your comments on this.
Ugh.
Step? Looking forward to your comments on this.
Huge traffic bridge in Italy collapses...
- Thread starter psuro
- Start date
Holy $hit.
I did an internship with PennDOT as a bridge inspector back in the day between my SO and JR years at Penn State, so this hits home a little bit.
We had a big blue van with a big orange "BRIDGE INSPECTION" sign on it -- With a flashing light. Whenever I was inspecting the top side of the deck, I used to wait for a car to be approaching the bridge, then I would kick the bridge a little (like "kicking the tires") and do a big "check mark" motion to my clip board. Lol -- Sometimes I really crack myself up.
A
anon_1eeb2b426hv3y
Guest
That’s horrifying.
I still remember as a kid some dope in a uhaul ran the top into a small highway bridge driving through an underpass. They closed down the highway until full inspection. I didn’t think it was a bad enough accident to justify closing down a highway. Then I learned...
I hope they were really taking care of this bridge.
Yeah, you gotta be real careful with bridges. I work with local County engineers and I see/hear horror stories of bridges deteriorating due to weather or other factors. Some older bridges have the concrete abutments start chipping away, and you see how the iron girders underneath get rusted away.
YIKES, didn't know anything about this, thanks ro.
"Suddenly the bridge came down with everything it was carrying. It was really an apocalyptic scene. I couldn't believe my eyes," Megna said.
WTF? I looked at the short video & sure enough there was a flash
"Witnesses said the bridge toppled after it was struck by lightning."
WTH?
What do you imagine ro? Strange ..is it confirmed that the structure was hit by lightening?
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LOL Fish, do that now and you may knock a structural component section from the bridge.
Odd that lightning would have done that - they all have lightning rods, no?
ro, not sure of the material for the pylons (I guess three pylons) assuming they are reinforced concrete constructed in 1967+/-. Look in the lower left of this picture, is that a leg of the pylon?
The reinforcement just doesn’t look right. Today’s codes would require a minimum of 1% area of reinforcement in a building column section, not sure what AASHTO requires as minimum. I have not been active in major bridges since 1976. Those sections are huge and would be under reinforced by today’s standards. It doesn’t even appear there’s ½”% in the sections.
This is a f’n huge concrete structure with supposed factors of safety of 3+. Lightning bringing the bridge down, I doubt it. Construction in 1966….. poor or incomplete construction inspection, contractors cut corners on material specs, was the bridge constructed as per engineering design meaning design changes during construction, and so on. Typical problems discovered after the fact.
Naturally, this is going to be a structural failure, but what the heck was so overwhelming to exceed the structures safety factors to cause the domino effect. The police are reporting the failure is due to tropical “storm blast”.
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It always turns out that the mafia built these things and used substandard materials.ro, not sure of the material for the pylons (I guess three pylons) assuming they are reinforced concrete constructed in 1967+/-. Look in the lower left of this picture, is that a leg of the pylon?
The reinforcement just doesn’t look right. Today’s codes would require a minimum of 1% area of reinforcement in a building column section, not sure what AASHTO requires as minimum. I have been active away in major bridges since 1976. Those sections are huge and would be under reinforced by today’s standards. It doesn’t even appear there’s ½”% in the sections.
This is a f’n huge concrete structure with supposed factors of safety of 3+. Lightning bringing the bridge down, I doubt it. Construction in 1966….. poor or incomplete construction inspection, contractors cut corners on material specs, was the bridge constructed as per engineering design meaning design changes during construction, and so on. Typical problems discovered after the fact.
Naturally, this is going to be a structural failure, but what the heck was so overwhelming to exceed the structures safety factors to cause the domino effect. The police are reporting the failure is due to tropical “storm blast”.
When my F-i-Law was alive and active, I was introduced to many fine and interesting Italians over the years. I attended several Italian American banquets at Gus Genetti’s in Wilkes-Barre and picnics at Scarlet Lake. I Never really discussed any construction methods with persons I was introduced to. I think sub-standard construction was one of the codes in the specifications.
for the Italians out there ......Viva l'Italia.....
Not that I'm aware, I would believe the entire bridge i one huge lightning ground. Could be wrong, i just don't remember any on the larger bridges i worken on at Michael Baker Jr. in Harrisburg. good night ro, close to quitting time.
Actuall the 85 year old concrete piers on the land viaduct of the Nanticoke bridge, that I was the project manager, was better that what seems to appear in the picture I posted in the previous post.
http://historicbridges.org/bridges/...ylvania/nanticoke/&gallerynum=1&gallerysize=1
Received this up date on the bridge a short time ago ro,
gotta love those politicians.
Link: https://www.ien.com/product-develop...ame-begins-as-italy-bridge-death-toll-hits-39
Frances D'Emilio
GENOA, Italy (AP) — Italian emergency workers pulled two more bodies out of tons of broken concrete and twisted steel Wednesday after a highway bridge collapsed in Genoa, raising the death toll in the disaster to at least 39 people.
The collapse of the Morandi Bridge sent dozens of cars and three trucks plunging as much as 45 meters (150 feet) to the ground Tuesday as many Italian families were on the road ahead of Wednesday's major summer holiday. The collapse took place after a violent storm.
Civil protection chief Angelo Borrelli confirmed Wednesday that 39 people had died and 15 were injured. Interior Minister Matteo Salvini said three children were among the dead.
Working with heavy equipment, rescuers climbed over concrete slabs with sniffer dogs all through the night and into the day, searching for survivors or bodies. Borrelli said 1,000 of them were at the scene.
Investigators, meanwhile, were working to determine what caused an 80-meter (260-foot) long stretch of highway to break off from the 45-meter (150-foot) high bridge in the northwestern port city.
Italian politicians, for their part, were trying to find who to blame for the deadly tragedy.
The 1967 bridge, considered innovative in its time for its use of concrete around its cables, was long due for an upgrade, especially since the structure was more heavily trafficked than its designers had envisioned. One expert in such construction, Antonio Brencich at the University of Genoa, had previously called the bridge "a failure of engineering."
An unidentified woman who was standing below the bridge told RAI state TV that it crumbled Tuesday as if it were a mound of baking flour.
Engineering experts, noting that the bridge was 51 years old, said corrosion and weather could have been factors in its collapse.
The Italian CNR civil engineering society said structures dating from when the Morandi Bridge was built had surpassed their lifespan. It called for a "Marshall Plan" to repair or replace tens of thousands of Italian bridges and viaducts built in the 1950s and 1960s. It said that simply updating or reinforcing the bridges would be more expensive than destroying and rebuilding them with new technology.
Mehdi Kashani, an associate professor in structural mechanics at the University of Southampton in the U.K., said pressure from "dynamic loads," such as heavy traffic or strong winds, could have resulted in "fatigue damage" in the bridge's parts.
Italy's minister of transportation and infrastructure, Danilo Toninelli, said there was a plan pending to spend 20 million euro ($22.7 million) on bids for significant safety work on the bridge.
While the collapse's cause is yet to be determined, political bickering moved into high gear Wednesday.
Toninelli, from the populist 5-Star Movement, threatened in a Facebook post that the state, if necessary, would take direct control of the highway contractor responsible for the bridge if it couldn't properly care for the roads and bridges it was responsible for.
State radio reported Wednesday that some 5-Star lawmakers in 2013 had questioned the wisdom of an ambitious, expensive infrastructure overhaul program as possibly wasteful, but that a post about that on the Movement's site was removed Tuesday after the bridge's collapse.
Within hours after the collapse, Salvini was trying to shift the blame away from Italy's new populist government, vowing not to let European Union spending strictures on Italy, which is laden with public debt, stop any effort to make the country's infrastructure safe.
Genoa is a flood-prone city, and officials were warning that the debris from the collapse must be removed as soon as possible. Some of the wreckage landed in a dry riverbed that could flood when the rainy season resumes in a few weeks.
At the Vatican, Pope Francis led prayers Wednesday for the victims of the Genoa bridge collapse.
Speaking to the faithful in St. Peter's Square, Francis expressed his "spiritual closeness" to the victims, the injured and their families, and the hundreds of local people who were forced to evacuate their homes in the area.
I just received this from the ASCE, better article. Seems that this elephant was on borrowed time from disaster.
link: https://www.ien.com/product-develop...ame-begins-as-italy-bridge-death-toll-hits-39
The bridge collapse has reignited a longstanding debate about the state of Italian infrastructure. Corriere Della Sera reported that four other bridges have collapsed in the past five years.
The Morandi bridge has been riddled with structural problems since its construction in 1967, which has led to expensive maintenance and repeated criticism from engineering experts. On Tuesday the specialist engineering website Ingegneri.info published a piece that highlighted longstanding concerns over the bridge, calling it “a tragedy waiting to happen”.
The architect Renzo Piano told La Repubblica that “bridges do not collapse by accident”. “I don’t know what happened yet; I don’t have enough information,” he said. “What I can say is that I don’t believe that … nature is uncontrollable, that lightning strikes and rain [cannot be dealt with].”
Play Video
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Genoa motorway bridge collapse caught on camera – video report
Antonio Brencich, an engineering professor at the University of Genoa, said it would have been impossible to foresee Tuesday’s disaster because the bridge, as it was designed, did not allow accurate checks on the status of the pylons.
Two years ago Brencich suggested in a study that the best approach with bridges like the Morandi would be to demolish them and start again. “The materials that had been used to build that bridge were destined to deteriorate quickly,” he said on Wednesday.
What the heck is this guy talking about, is the concrete and steel not in accordance in specifications for 1967? This is an interesting statment.
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What is wrong with Italian Engineering and Construction methods? ...
As i mentioned I a previous post to Pardlion, Zig........
[URL='https://bwi.forums.rivals.com/members/pardlion.10628/']Pardlion ↑[/URL]
It always turns out that the mafia built these things and used substandard materials.
When my F-i-Law was alive and active, I was introduced to many fine and interesting Italians over the years. I attended several Italian American banquets at Gus Genetti’s in Wilkes-Barre and picnics at Scarlet Lake. I Never really discussed any construction methods with persons I was introduced to. I think sub-standard construction was one of the codes in the Italian specifications.
for the Italians out there ......Viva l'Italia.....
I highlighted the last sentence - that is the issue with a lot of the bridges my engineers see locally. Not sure of codes and specs at that time. I would imagine that this part of Italy, much like NE US, has seen a significant increase in vehicular traffic, beyond what they were designed for. That has led to deterioration of concrete and other physical issues that have led to the bridges out living their life cycle.
A lighter moment in bridge failures as the Walnut Street Bridge in Harrisburg collapses and a truss span flows down stream and crashes into the Market Street Bridge.
It should be an interesting preliminary report on the collapse. The increase in the AADT may be greater than anticipated in the original design future vehicle volume. This bridge is only 50 years old. I would imagine a structure of this type would have a fatigue life cycle of at least 100 years.
I would believe if the AADT increased over a 50 year time period, the bridge should be adequate in performance.
I don’t know the European truck and lane loading, but if similar to ours, it didn’t change too much. The current HL-93 truck loading is similar to the HS-44 from the 60’s. I’m assuming lane loading hasn’t changed drastically. Granted the current design approach taken today is much different with the limit states replacing the old working stress-strength methods.
I believe the rabbit hole is deeper than loading and fatigue cycles.
The concrete sucked, and failed, resulting in corrosion of the structural steel and eventual catastrophic system failure.
Thank you, that will be $500.
And that is the problem - hiring cheap consultants. $500? pfft - should be $5000.
I'm a cheap date.
I forgot to add: The outcome of the inquiry will be that dead guys are to blame.
LOL ro, I don't have time to comment, but Pardlion is being too modest, nobody works for $500 today.
Appears to be under designed. Small rebar and not nearly enough of them at first glance. Not sure what kind of design criteria was used back then but the traffic should not be a factor. The way you estimate loading on a bridge along with the factors of safety you use, you could stack trucks on top of each other and it would still be fine (at least if it was designed now).ro, not sure of the material for the pylons (I guess three pylons) assuming they are reinforced concrete constructed in 1967+/-. Look in the lower left of this picture, is that a leg of the pylon?
The reinforcement just doesn’t look right. Today’s codes would require a minimum of 1% area of reinforcement in a building column section, not sure what AASHTO requires as minimum. I have been active away in major bridges since 1976. Those sections are huge and would be under reinforced by today’s standards. It doesn’t even appear there’s ½”% in the sections.
This is a f’n huge concrete structure with supposed factors of safety of 3+. Lightning bringing the bridge down, I doubt it. Construction in 1966….. poor or incomplete construction inspection, contractors cut corners on material specs, was the bridge constructed as per engineering design meaning design changes during construction, and so on. Typical problems discovered after the fact.
Naturally, this is going to be a structural failure, but what the heck was so overwhelming to exceed the structures safety factors to cause the domino effect. The police are reporting the failure is due to tropical “storm blast”.
I was leaning that way also, yesterday, but after reading the highlighted statement below, I'm thinking possibly an inadequate design, leading to the cables failing. Of course these are just ideas thrown out there because we don't have the bridge drawings.
The statement below "concrete encased steel cables", I am assuming they're referring to the cable stay system. If true, then the concrete encasement must have been considered in the cable section to carry the tensile force.
Not being familiar with this unique type of cable stay bridge, if the cables have a minor reversal of load to compression and some twisting due to harmonic motion, how will the concrete encasement perform?
Will the concrete cable encasement produce wide enough cracking to allow steel cables to be exposed to weathering, further diminishing the section properties. Anyway, we don't know the section properties of the bridge elements, just throwing some wild a$$ guesses.
,__________________________________
The 1967 bridge, considered innovative in its time for its use of concrete around its cables, was long due for an upgrade, especially since the structure was more heavily trafficked than its designers had envisioned. One expert in such construction, Antonio Brencich at the University of Genoa, had previously called the bridge "a failure of engineering."
What is wrong with Italian Engineering and Construction methods? ...
I’m leaning towards poor construction standards. How will they bridge the gap?
You may want make a note to Josh Sapiero the girl was of legal age when I posted the picture
An interesting NY Times article at THIS LINK
I'm not a civil engineer, and it will take some time for the experts to come to a conclusion on what went wrong. I have heard, or seen mentioned in several articles, speculation that the Concrete Stay(s) on the trestle that collapsed may be the culprit.
From the NYT article:
Before and After the Bridge Collapse
The cable-stayed Morandi Bridge in Genoa, Italy, collapsed on Tuesday. This bridge uses very few stays, which were constructed from pre-stressed concrete instead of steel cables. The collapse occurred at one of the trestles, a vertical framework of upside-down V’s used for support.
CONCRETE STAY TRESTLE
I'm not a civil engineer, and it will take some time for the experts to come to a conclusion on what went wrong. I have heard, or seen mentioned in several articles, speculation that the Concrete Stay(s) on the trestle that collapsed may be the culprit.
From the NYT article:
Before and After the Bridge Collapse
The cable-stayed Morandi Bridge in Genoa, Italy, collapsed on Tuesday. This bridge uses very few stays, which were constructed from pre-stressed concrete instead of steel cables. The collapse occurred at one of the trestles, a vertical framework of upside-down V’s used for support.
CONCRETE STAY TRESTLE
Here ya go Pardlion, from the article tom McA provided in this thread....
"The collapse prompted new scrutiny of the Five Star Movement, a partner in the governing coalition. As members of the opposition, local and national officials of Five Star, including its founder, Beppe Grillo, had opposed plans to expand Genoa’s highway network, including building a new highway, saying that the project would most likely fall victim to corruption and uncontrolled costs".
Thanks much Tom for this post. The pre-stressed concrete stays are completly different (night-day) concerning the information of "concrete encased steel stays" from the article I provided.
I couldn't wrap my head around the concept of encases steel stays, the members would be too slender to resist much compression loading. As far as pre-stressed slender stays in the 60's, seems more like a whim or fancy by the bridge engineer. We'll see as the cause of the collapase is studied.
