Penn State is also basically getting the best of both worlds as a public institution operating like a private one.
higher ed costs and administration
- Thread starter blion72
- Start date
Which may be one of the reasons Harrisburg isn't generous when it comes to appropriations.
Similar situation with an Asian woman I work with. Everything associated with her kids has to be the best whether it be school district, piano teachers, etc. I'm sure her son will graduate top 3 of a very good high school class, get all kinds of college offers, and wind up going to Cornell or Harvard.
There is an incestuous relationship between architects, contractors and school administrators. Done of PSU’s biggest donors have been among those two groups. We lived in the Boston area from 1969-1973. I was awe struck that Harvard was still teaching in buildings that were 159+ years old.
This is a key problem in letting bookworms act like trained business managers. .
This is a key problem in letting bookworms act like trained business managers. .
Lot of truth to that, problem is will it be any cheaper. For example, the college my son attends, they switched him to two online classes at the beginning of the semester because the professor could not teach the class at the last minute. The result, they charged him $350 and called it a technology fee ($175 per class).the classroom of the future
The "bookworms" aren't the ones who are doing it. There's a whole class of administrators who have no real connection to academics.
You are right. Once upon a time the University of Chicago tried doing away with their athletic department, result, less applications and lower quality of students. Seems the debate club and the campus musical do not seem to attract students.
You also have D3 schools adding football, instantly you get an extra 75 to 100 male students on your campus. If it is a private school, 100 new kids at $30K each is an extra $3 million in revenue.
Had a friend who taught at a small private d3 of about 750-1000 students. 300 of them were student athletes. Without athletics, that univ. would have been closed. For some d3's, athletics is a major recruiting tool.
D3 schools aren't supposed to give out athletic scholarships, yet somehow kids on varsity teams manage to get financial aid. Impossible to say if it's need based. Let's chalk it up it up to schools discounting cost of attendance with no rhyme or reason, or at least no apparently logical one.
The only revenue these kids bring in is that portion of their cost of attendance paid by themselves/parents.
It's a two-edged sword with a lot of these schools. First, they have such a large percentage of the student body playing a varsityu sport one could argue that it's part of the overall experience. On the other hand, if they reduced sports to, say the intramural level would they not be able to attract a sufficient number of students to stay afloat? Impossible to answer. In contrast to the major players, one could argue that these smaller schools are more consciously and rationally factoring in the cost of underwriting the sport in their financial models.
Hard to say. If it's a school like Williams or Amherst, no; they'll find more than enough students who won't insist on being a varsity athlete for four more year to fill their classes easily. But for every one of those I wouldn't be surprised to see multiples on the margin.
If you’re talking federal, must have full funding authorized and appropriated for a project. R and d funding works a littledifferently
Federal contracts can be incrementally funded, a year at a time for a multi year project for example. They don’t need to be fully funded at inception.
do you think that she is analyzing the financial benefit of a Cornel degree over tOSU? if you look at some of the most recent studies, it is showing that major is frequently more important than school brand = so a BS BioEng from say Buffalo Univ may be far better than a BA English from Williams. in the latter you need to go on to apply to law school, etc.
That's what happens when there is no accountability. Might also help if there were an attitude adjustment on the part of the PSU administration when dealing with the folks who control the purse strings.
But a BS BioEng from a highly selective college is better than a similar degree from Buffalo. While the major choice impacts subsequent earnings, going to a more selective university also impacts earnings, although to a lesser degree (no pun intended).
Even at Div 1, Villanova saw a large increase in the number of applicants (and contributions) after they won the NCAA basketball playoffs. It made them much more well known nationally.
FWIW, my daughter was a Div 3 athlete. She choose a highly selective small school over PSU and many others so that she could compete in her sport. It paid off for her, academically, physically, and socially. She got a better education there than she would have at most Div 1 schools. She became instant friends with 50 highly motivated and disciplined teammates, and she excelled both in her sport and in her grades. She’d get up at 6 am to run or hit the weight room 5 days a week, and at night she’d hit the books. She studied abroad for one semester (Australia), and for one summer (UK). She later went on to get her masters, a good job in her field, and pretty soon, she will earn her PHD. At least now she is being paid as a faculty member (at a larger Div 1 university) and gets free tuition. It cost a fortune to attend the small selective D3 school, but you only live once. It was worth it. Without the ability to be in their sports program, I’m not sure what the outcome would have been. Probably still very positive, but it’s hard to speculate.
Small selective schools offer a personal education experience which large universities generally do not match. They had an 11-1 faculty to student ratio, and the professors would often have students over to their homes for dinner. They received a lot of personal attention. That’s one of the reasons they are so expensive. The important thing was that the school was stronger academically than PSU. Some kids perform better in a small college environment and others excel at a large university where there are perhaps more opportunities balanced against more distractions. Your mileage may vary. For her, she made the right choice, and she is now as well.
Last edited:
School was Nichols College in Massachusetts. Small D3 with a "meh" academic reputation. They survived off kids who wanted to continue to play a sport in college but didn't have the athletic ability to earn a scholarship anywhere. Just loved playing sports and wanted to continue to do it in college and mom/dad were willing to pay for that experience.
Really? I've worked with plenty of engineers and computer scientists from UB, PSU, UMich, Cornell, MIT, etc. The Bufflo grads have been some of the brightest. All with tuition close to 40k less per year and pulling in the same salaries. Only difference I can see in the schools is possibly the connections you might make while there ... and that's a big question mark whether that happens.
Your post has a lot of good points about the benefits to the student of playing a sport for 4 years in college. Those benefits can be gained at both small and large schools. I went to a smaller college for undergrad and played a sport for four years and had very good experiences.
Who really knows what the future will look like?
My guess is that the Ivies, the truly elite small schools (the Williamses, and Colbys of the world- most of the kids who go to those places come from money, their parents are often the ones making money from other families student loans), and the big state institutions will be around. I personally don't see much future for many others.
Sooner or later someone will supply very good quality online education at bargain prices- lower margins, higher volume. Hell, it's already happening.
My guess is that the Ivies, the truly elite small schools (the Williamses, and Colbys of the world- most of the kids who go to those places come from money, their parents are often the ones making money from other families student loans), and the big state institutions will be around. I personally don't see much future for many others.
Sooner or later someone will supply very good quality online education at bargain prices- lower margins, higher volume. Hell, it's already happening.
Playing sports is generally a good thing. Find that priorities, though, are often out of kilter when the opportunity to do so becomes the primary determining factor in a college choice (and I'm not talking about a major sport and/or where scholarship money is a factor). Then again, I've seen cases where dormitory accommodations and food options are, so why should I be surprised?
Like most of us on this board, when I went to college you lined up and one of the two institutional food choices was doled out by the ladies with hair nets .... I am sure not many of my classmates even bothered to check the dorm and food options as part of their college choice. LOL
I received grant in aid for my participation in a sport. Of my choices, I picked the school with the best academics.
When I was a freshman, we were required to live in the dorms. I swear those ladies in hair nets followed me from my high school- same crappy food. I think I ate twice in the dining hall before discovering the NCD and the Char Pit.
I know of someone that picked a school because it had maybe a half dozen popular fast food outlets concentrated in a dining quad. And it wasn't as if he couldn't find the same options within a 5-10 minute walk from the campuses of other schools. Again, this was the primary reason, not some sort of tie-breaker. Of the choices, this school was the most expensive of an expensive bunch. Could the family afford it? At the time, yes. Now, not so much.
The data from recent longitudinal studies confirms my point. It’s not a major positive impact but the evidence shows that students from highly selective schools make more money than their counterparts.
Hmm, any politics associated with "diversity officers" on campus?
Last fall the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill received a public-records request for the salaries and benefits of the chief diversity officer and her staff from a man named Connor Kurtz. His explanation — “I’m researching staffing in various departments at top American public universities” — sounded simple enough.
But a look at Kurtz’s employer suggests bigger motives are in play. He works for the American Enterprise Institute, a right-leaning think tank that has railed against rising tuition costs and what it calls higher education’s lack of ideological diversity. The records he sought revealed salaries totaling about $700,000. (AEI didn’t respond to requests for comment about its research.)
The institute isn’t the only organization interested in the salaries of officials who focus on diversity at public universities. In recent months, conservative think tanks and news outlets have taken aim at a handful of prominent institutions, searching salary databases and filing records requests like the one Chapel Hill received.
https://www.chronicle.com/article/C...i1ITEJOYXgwRGJDaDZWeEJoQTFCUjI4bnlaRFR5a1kySQ
Last fall the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill received a public-records request for the salaries and benefits of the chief diversity officer and her staff from a man named Connor Kurtz. His explanation — “I’m researching staffing in various departments at top American public universities” — sounded simple enough.
But a look at Kurtz’s employer suggests bigger motives are in play. He works for the American Enterprise Institute, a right-leaning think tank that has railed against rising tuition costs and what it calls higher education’s lack of ideological diversity. The records he sought revealed salaries totaling about $700,000. (AEI didn’t respond to requests for comment about its research.)
The institute isn’t the only organization interested in the salaries of officials who focus on diversity at public universities. In recent months, conservative think tanks and news outlets have taken aim at a handful of prominent institutions, searching salary databases and filing records requests like the one Chapel Hill received.
https://www.chronicle.com/article/C...i1ITEJOYXgwRGJDaDZWeEJoQTFCUjI4bnlaRFR5a1kySQ
Another interesting point of note is that despite efforts to recruit diversity in staff, Penn State's staff demographics have remained stagnant for decades. These "efforts" include hiring administrators specifically tasked with diversity recruiting.I attended a "Diversity and Inclusion" conference at PSU last month.
It started off with introducing some of the PSU Administrative Officers charged with "Diversity and Inclusion".
They started listing them off - - - - and after a while I thought "How many are there?"..... and I started writing them down as they were introduced.
I did NOT make note of the beginning of the list... I am guessing that from the time I started writing them down, I got about 1/2 of them.
Here is the (partial) list of officers - I wrote down the name of the office, my stenographer skills did not allow me to keep up with the names as well- noted:
The heads of:
- Commission on LGBT Equity
- Commission on Diversity
- Assistant Vice Provost for Educational Equity
- Office of Affirmative Action
- Senior Director of Talent Diversity and Inclusion
- Council of College Multi-Cultural Leaders
- Commission for Women
And also "D & I" administrators embedded in the following PSU Bureaucracies:
- Student Affairs
- Human Resources
- Undergraduate Education
- Office of Ethics and Compliance
- Office of Faculty Affairs
I can tell you from PERSONAL experience that nearly all of these roles are also duplicated at the College level (ie - College of Business, College of Engineering, College of Science, etc etc )
If one could truly total all the bureaucratic cost, I would imagine that eliminating them would allow PSU to offer 100% free tuition to every "person of color" or outlier group on campus.
Laugh? Or, Cry?
BTW:
There were some interesting conversations/presentations at the conference - - - - - but I am sure they were NOT the ones the PSU Dog-and-Pony brigade was hoping for.
That's not true.....
Over the last several years the % of African-American students has risen dramatically.... from about 5.0% to 5.1% (something of that order, though I don't have the actual numbers at my fingertips)
That may be true--but I meant staff statistics instead of students.
I think it has been a challenge to recruit more diverse faculty, staff, and students to University Park.
As evidence, take a look at Abington where you will see a much more diverse group of students.
As evidence, take a look at Abington where you will see a much more diverse group of students.
You are correct. What minority wants to go to the sticks to be surrounded by a bunch of hillbilly rednecks? They find urban universities a more attractive option.
I attended a "Diversity and Inclusion" conference at PSU last month.
It started off with introducing some of the PSU Administrative Officers charged with "Diversity and Inclusion".
They started listing them off - - - - and after a while I thought "How many are there?"..... and I started writing them down as they were introduced.
I did NOT make note of the beginning of the list... I am guessing that from the time I started writing them down, I got about 1/2 of them.
Here is the (partial) list of officers - I wrote down the name of the office, my stenographer skills did not allow me to keep up with the names as well
The heads of:
- Commission on LGBT Equity
- Commission on Diversity
- Assistant Vice Provost for Educational Equity
- Office of Affirmative Action
- Senior Director of Talent Diversity and Inclusion
- Council of College Multi-Cultural Leaders
- Commission for Women
And also "D & I" administrators embedded in the following PSU Bureaucracies:
- Student Affairs
- Human Resources
- Undergraduate Education
- Office of Ethics and Compliance
- Office of Faculty Affairs
I can tell you from PERSONAL experience that nearly all of these roles are also duplicated at the College level (ie - College of Business, College of Engineering, College of Science, etc etc )
If one could truly total all the bureaucratic cost, I would imagine that eliminating them would allow PSU to offer 100% free tuition to every "person of color" or outlier group on campus.
Laugh? Or, Cry?
BTW:
There were some interesting conversations/presentations at the conference - - - - - but I am sure they were NOT the ones the PSU Dog-and-Pony brigade was hoping for.
You clearly do not appreciate what today's students are looking for in a university.
it seems that Wall Street has not been as interested in recruiting graduates with liberal art majors from the small elite privates. they seem to have gravitated to the professional degrees - still like elite schools of course. after the last downturn and the 2009 crash seems like things changed a lot. still has been a trend toward the MBA/JD type players. when i came out of undergrad these small elites with liberal arts majors could write their own ticket with the investment bankers of course that was 1971.
I attended a "Diversity and Inclusion" conference at PSU last month.
It started off with introducing some of the PSU Administrative Officers charged with "Diversity and Inclusion".
They started listing them off - - - - and after a while I thought "How many are there?"..... and I started writing them down as they were introduced.
I did NOT make note of the beginning of the list... I am guessing that from the time I started writing them down, I got about 1/2 of them.
Here is the (partial) list of officers - I wrote down the name of the office, my stenographer skills did not allow me to keep up with the names as well
The heads of:
- Commission on LGBT Equity
- Commission on Diversity
- Assistant Vice Provost for Educational Equity
- Office of Affirmative Action
- Senior Director of Talent Diversity and Inclusion
- Council of College Multi-Cultural Leaders
- Commission for Women
And also "D & I" administrators embedded in the following PSU Bureaucracies:
- Student Affairs
- Human Resources
- Undergraduate Education
- Office of Ethics and Compliance
- Office of Faculty Affairs
I can tell you from PERSONAL experience that nearly all of these roles are also duplicated at the College level (ie - College of Business, College of Engineering, College of Science, etc etc )
If one could truly total all the bureaucratic cost, I would imagine that eliminating them would allow PSU to offer 100% free tuition to every "person of color" or outlier group on campus.
Laugh? Or, Cry?
BTW:
There were some interesting conversations/presentations at the conference - - - - - but I am sure they were NOT the ones the PSU Dog-and-Pony brigade was hoping for.
you are spot on, and there are other areas that really stand out at most schools:
- Audit and Compliance will be many times the size of a corporation with similar scale. NIU has about 140 people in this capacity - who can be identified. ITW a notable corporation has something like 7 internal staff in this area. in addition all schools tend to have external auditors and compliance people for every problem.
- Athletics Administration - also has added staff for their compliance and support.
- GC and legal staff including external budgets are substantial
- HR is a lot larger when benchmarked to for profit organizations
- Provost - Vice Provost for every problem ever identified to show it is being dealt with.
- Colleges usually have redundant positions to Provost staff
- Student Affairs staff - saw Indy's and it was massive = looked big enough to run a company.
- Big facilities organization as they build more sq ft - never shrink
Similar threads
