yeah ... he was great for that whole span
from 74 thru 81 he was top 2 in WAR every season for position players
from 74 thru 86 he was top 4 in WAR every season & in 1987 he was 7th
I believe his 8 HR titles are second all time behind only Ruth
Harold Baines made the baseball HOF?
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yeah ... he was great for that whole span
from 74 thru 81 he was top 2 in WAR every season for position players
from 74 thru 86 he was top 4 in WAR every season & in 1987 he was 7th
I believe his 8 HR titles are second all time behind only Ruth
Speaking of WAR, how much of a freak is Mike Trout? He is heading toward the Mt. Olympus of baseball greats.
Donnie Baseball deserves the recognition of a Hall of Famer. Guy was the best player in baseball for a 2-3 year stretch (until his wrist and back wore down). Baines was a very good player, not a HOF.
It is so sad that Mattingly's career was shortened by injury. He had an amazing run in the late '80s. I was a huge baseball fan back then, as I loved the numbers that Mattingly, Boggs, Gwynn, and Puckett put up. Then just a few years later, we got Griffey, Jr., Frank Thomas, and Juan Gonzalez. Then A-Rod and Chipper Jones. Great times.
I did my own research. I had always heard (from Phillies fans) that Dick Allen was a guy who could be in the HOF with better publicity.
Baines 1299 R, 2866 H, 384 HR, 1628 RBI, .289 avg
Parker 1272 R, 2712 H, 339 HR, 1493 RBI, .290 avg
Allen 1099 R, 1848 H, 351 HR, 1151RBI, .292 avg
Allen also has 133 stolen bases, playing First Base, Third Base, and Left Field. He won Rookie of the year in 64, was a seven time all star in his 15 year career, and won an MVP in 1974 with 37 HR, 113 RBI, and .308 avg
I haven’t gone through a similar analysis for the others, but consider the following for Allen-
Dodgers - Koufax, Drysdale, Sutton
Cardinals - Gibson, Carlton
Giants - Marichal, Perry
Cubs - Jenkins
Mets - Seaver, Ryan
Braves - Neikro
Reds, Astros, Padres - N/A
Maybe the same does apply to Baines and Parker, but Allen faced HOF pitchers routinely in nearly every series he played. There are 69 pitchers in total enshrined in the Hall. Let’s just say it’s split 50-50 so that say 35 pitchers from each league are enshrined. Allen faced one every third game. Again, maybe it’s the same for Baines and Parker, I’d have to do the work.
Allen has a ton less AB’s so that his slash line is better than the others over a smaller total. He averaged over 100 rbi’s for his career. Numbers count so he has himself to blame for the longevity of his career and the fact that he didn’t get to even 2000 hits.
There is some metric that Allen had the best in baseball over the 64-74 time period which is almost his career.
I saw the entire career of each. I’d say Allen, Parker, Baines.
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Didn’t Mattingly set the record for number of GS in a year? Think he hit six in 1987. Also think those are the only GS he ever hit.
I have no problem with Dick Allen being in the HOF. For a 10 year period he was one of the best in the game, that should be hall worthy even with less than 2000 hits. Career OPS of .912.
I am mixed on Parker, up and down career.
If Baines is in the Hall, then you have to start giving serious consideration to Parker and guys like Vada Pinson and Al Oliver. Which is why Baines should not be in the Hall.
Ugh, this again. Namath deserves the Hall. I don't care what people think, for me there's not even a doubt.
This Gary Sheffield? "If the official scorer gave me an error, I didn't think was an error, I'd say, ‘OK, here's a real error,’ and I'd throw the next ball into the stands on purpose.”
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
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Good article by Joe Posnanski about Murphy's HOF chances. I think the 'Keltner Questions' list is a pretty good one and gives a pretty fair view of Murphy's accomplishments. It's hard to believe he was essentially finished as a slugger at 32 years old. I'd like to see how these questions would go for Baines.
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Many years ago, Bill James created what he called the Keltner List. This was a series of questions to ask about a player to get your mind straight about their Hall of Fame case. In the early 1980s, a group of baseball luminaries -- including then-Milwaukee Brewers owner Bud Selig -- got together to try and convince people that former Cleveland third baseman Ken Keltner belonged in the Hall of Fame.
James came up with this list of questions to ask about Keltner and any other Hall of Fame candidate. The Keltner List is not a formula; it doesn't have a point system and doesn't give a clear thumbs up or thumbs down at the end. No, you ask and answer the questions, and by the end, maybe you will have a clearer view of that player's career.
With Bill's permission, I'm bringing the Keltner List back with a couple of added questions of my own -- I think Keltner 2.0 will help us understand the Hall of Fame case of Murphy.
1. Was Murphy ever regarded as the best player in the Majors? Did anybody, while he was active, suggest that he was the best player in the game?
Yes and yes. I would say for six years, 1982-87, most people would have said that Murphy was the best player in baseball. In retrospect, you could certainly make a case for Wade Boggs, Rickey Henderson, Mike Schmidt or Cal Ripken (all in the Hall), but Murphy was in that class.
2. Was Murphy the best player on his team?
Yes. That wasn't especially close and it isn't overly impressive; Murphy spent most of his career playing for terrible Braves teams.
3. Was Murphy the best player in the Majors at his position?
Yes. Murphy was the game's best center fielder throughout his prime. Andre Dawson was as good in the early part, but then he moved to right field. Kirby Puckett and Eric Davis came along toward the end of Murphy's prime.
4. Did Murphy have an impact on a number of pennant races?
Only one. In 1982, the Braves won their first 13 games and then played well enough the final six weeks to hold off the Dodgers by one game. Murphy hit .281/.378/.507, played all 162 games, led the National League with 109 RBIs, won a Gold Glove Award and his first NL MVP Award. The Braves wouldn't have won the division without him.
But that was it for postseason baseball. Murphy's Braves contended the next year (Murphy won his second NL MVP Award) but lost to the Dodgers by three games. They were dreadful for the rest of Murphy's career in Atlanta.
5. Was Murphy a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
Sadly, no. This is the big problem with Murphy's case. At 31, Murphy hit .295/.417/.580 with a career-high 44 home runs. After that, he was basically done as a player. Murphy hit .234/.307/.396 for the last six years of his career, and an effort to get to 400 home runs didn't pan out with the expansion Rockies in 1993; he finished with 398 home runs. He was a big man who missed only five games between 1982-87, and his body just wore down after that.
6. Are most of the players who are comparable to Murphy in the Hall of Fame?
Not most. Among Murphy's most similar batters, Duke Snider and Ron Santo are in the Hall of Fame. Andruw Jones is the most similar batter, and he is on the Hall of Fame ballot for the first time this year. Jones is not expected to do especially well in the voting.
7. Are Murphy's numbers worthy of the Hall of Fame?
Let's use a few different methods to see:
By Black Ink -- which counts the number of times a player led the league in important stats -- Murphy scores a 44. The average Hall of Famer is at 27. So that's good.
By Gray Ink -- which counts the number of times a player finished in the Top 10 in important stats -- he scores a 147. The average Hall of Famer is at 144. So that's good.
By the Hall of Fame Monitor -- which uses points to determine how likely a player is to be elected to the Hall -- Murphy scored a 116. A likely Hall of Famer is 100. Good again.
And finally by Hall of Fame standards -- a rather complicated formula again giving points, with 50 being the average Hall of Famer -- Murphy scored 34. Not as good.
And by Jay Jaffe's JAWS -- which considers a player's career WAR and peak WAR -- Murphy falls short. His 43.6 JAWS is well below the average Hall of Fame center fielder (57.9 JAWS).
8. Is there a reason to believe he was better or worse than the stats say?
Probably a little of both. Murphy benefited from playing in Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium, where the ball carried so well the place was called The Launching Pad. On the other hand, he played in a relatively low-scoring era and for terrible teams that offered little support. Murphy was a good all-around player, which can get overlooked in the stats. He was viewed in his time as a five-tool player -- he stole 30 bases one season, won five Gold Glove Awards and walked 115 times one year.
9. Is Murphy the best player at his position not in the Hall of Fame?
Because Murphy essentially was done at 32, he does not have the career numbers to make that claim. Kenny Lofton and the just-retired Carlos Beltran have more impressive career numbers. But you could certainly argue that at his peak, Murphy was as good as any center fielder not in Cooperstown -- not counting Mike Trout, of course.
10. How many MVP Awards did Murphy win and how many MVP-type seasons did he have?
Murphy won two NL MVP Awards, which obviously helps his case. He had what I would call four MVP-type seasons, and he got MVP Award votes in seven years.
11. How many All-Star and All-Star-type seasons did Murphy have?
Murphy made seven All-Star teams, and I don't think he had any other All-Star-type years.
12. If Murphy was the best player on a team, could they win the World Series?
We'd have to guess, obviously, because the Braves were so bad. But I think the answer is clearly yes. Numerous teams have won World Series without a player as good as Murphy.
13. What impact, if any, did Murphy have on baseball history?
Murphy was a pivotal player for opening up Major League baseball to the South. When he played, there was no baseball in Florida or Washington, D.C., and so the Braves were really the team from Florida up to Virginia and out to Alabama, Tennessee and even Mississippi. This was especially true after Ted Turner started broadcasting Braves games on TBS -- and unabashedly marketed them as "America's Team." Murphy was the only player worth watching on America's Team, and for years he carried the entire banner of Southern baseball.
14. Did Murphy uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that is written into the Hall of Fame guidelines?
Yes, and then some. Murphy was perhaps the game's most approachable and friendly superstar. He was, in this way, the Stan Musial of his time.
15. Was Murphy especially popular and fun to watch?
Yes. Murphy was seen all over the country while playing for losing Braves teams, and he had an impact on fans. He was a fun player who played all out, covered a lot of ground with his long strides and had a big all-or-nothing type swing. Murphy was one of the most popular players of the 1980s, his posters were on the walls of many young fans. Even today, Murphy remains immensely popular because of his play and personality.
16. Was there anything particularly memorable about Murphy? Did he have any famous moments?
Murphy's unique ability was hitting opposite-field home runs. That is something that is common today because the players have grown so much stronger, but in the 1970s and 80s, you rarely saw players hit opposite-field home runs. Murphy did it routinely. His power was to right-center, and it was striking how his ball seemed to carry differently from other players.
As for famous moments, Murphy only played in one postseason, so he did not get the opportunity to have such a moment.
And at the end of the Keltner List, it seems to come down to this: Murphy was a Hall of Fame-level player for his seven or so years. And his career then crashed when he was still a relatively young man. So it comes down to this: Was he great for long enough?
---
Many years ago, Bill James created what he called the Keltner List. This was a series of questions to ask about a player to get your mind straight about their Hall of Fame case. In the early 1980s, a group of baseball luminaries -- including then-Milwaukee Brewers owner Bud Selig -- got together to try and convince people that former Cleveland third baseman Ken Keltner belonged in the Hall of Fame.
James came up with this list of questions to ask about Keltner and any other Hall of Fame candidate. The Keltner List is not a formula; it doesn't have a point system and doesn't give a clear thumbs up or thumbs down at the end. No, you ask and answer the questions, and by the end, maybe you will have a clearer view of that player's career.
With Bill's permission, I'm bringing the Keltner List back with a couple of added questions of my own -- I think Keltner 2.0 will help us understand the Hall of Fame case of Murphy.
1. Was Murphy ever regarded as the best player in the Majors? Did anybody, while he was active, suggest that he was the best player in the game?
Yes and yes. I would say for six years, 1982-87, most people would have said that Murphy was the best player in baseball. In retrospect, you could certainly make a case for Wade Boggs, Rickey Henderson, Mike Schmidt or Cal Ripken (all in the Hall), but Murphy was in that class.
2. Was Murphy the best player on his team?
Yes. That wasn't especially close and it isn't overly impressive; Murphy spent most of his career playing for terrible Braves teams.
3. Was Murphy the best player in the Majors at his position?
Yes. Murphy was the game's best center fielder throughout his prime. Andre Dawson was as good in the early part, but then he moved to right field. Kirby Puckett and Eric Davis came along toward the end of Murphy's prime.
4. Did Murphy have an impact on a number of pennant races?
Only one. In 1982, the Braves won their first 13 games and then played well enough the final six weeks to hold off the Dodgers by one game. Murphy hit .281/.378/.507, played all 162 games, led the National League with 109 RBIs, won a Gold Glove Award and his first NL MVP Award. The Braves wouldn't have won the division without him.
But that was it for postseason baseball. Murphy's Braves contended the next year (Murphy won his second NL MVP Award) but lost to the Dodgers by three games. They were dreadful for the rest of Murphy's career in Atlanta.
5. Was Murphy a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
Sadly, no. This is the big problem with Murphy's case. At 31, Murphy hit .295/.417/.580 with a career-high 44 home runs. After that, he was basically done as a player. Murphy hit .234/.307/.396 for the last six years of his career, and an effort to get to 400 home runs didn't pan out with the expansion Rockies in 1993; he finished with 398 home runs. He was a big man who missed only five games between 1982-87, and his body just wore down after that.
6. Are most of the players who are comparable to Murphy in the Hall of Fame?
Not most. Among Murphy's most similar batters, Duke Snider and Ron Santo are in the Hall of Fame. Andruw Jones is the most similar batter, and he is on the Hall of Fame ballot for the first time this year. Jones is not expected to do especially well in the voting.
7. Are Murphy's numbers worthy of the Hall of Fame?
Let's use a few different methods to see:
By Black Ink -- which counts the number of times a player led the league in important stats -- Murphy scores a 44. The average Hall of Famer is at 27. So that's good.
By Gray Ink -- which counts the number of times a player finished in the Top 10 in important stats -- he scores a 147. The average Hall of Famer is at 144. So that's good.
By the Hall of Fame Monitor -- which uses points to determine how likely a player is to be elected to the Hall -- Murphy scored a 116. A likely Hall of Famer is 100. Good again.
And finally by Hall of Fame standards -- a rather complicated formula again giving points, with 50 being the average Hall of Famer -- Murphy scored 34. Not as good.
And by Jay Jaffe's JAWS -- which considers a player's career WAR and peak WAR -- Murphy falls short. His 43.6 JAWS is well below the average Hall of Fame center fielder (57.9 JAWS).
8. Is there a reason to believe he was better or worse than the stats say?
Probably a little of both. Murphy benefited from playing in Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium, where the ball carried so well the place was called The Launching Pad. On the other hand, he played in a relatively low-scoring era and for terrible teams that offered little support. Murphy was a good all-around player, which can get overlooked in the stats. He was viewed in his time as a five-tool player -- he stole 30 bases one season, won five Gold Glove Awards and walked 115 times one year.
9. Is Murphy the best player at his position not in the Hall of Fame?
Because Murphy essentially was done at 32, he does not have the career numbers to make that claim. Kenny Lofton and the just-retired Carlos Beltran have more impressive career numbers. But you could certainly argue that at his peak, Murphy was as good as any center fielder not in Cooperstown -- not counting Mike Trout, of course.
10. How many MVP Awards did Murphy win and how many MVP-type seasons did he have?
Murphy won two NL MVP Awards, which obviously helps his case. He had what I would call four MVP-type seasons, and he got MVP Award votes in seven years.
11. How many All-Star and All-Star-type seasons did Murphy have?
Murphy made seven All-Star teams, and I don't think he had any other All-Star-type years.
12. If Murphy was the best player on a team, could they win the World Series?
We'd have to guess, obviously, because the Braves were so bad. But I think the answer is clearly yes. Numerous teams have won World Series without a player as good as Murphy.
13. What impact, if any, did Murphy have on baseball history?
Murphy was a pivotal player for opening up Major League baseball to the South. When he played, there was no baseball in Florida or Washington, D.C., and so the Braves were really the team from Florida up to Virginia and out to Alabama, Tennessee and even Mississippi. This was especially true after Ted Turner started broadcasting Braves games on TBS -- and unabashedly marketed them as "America's Team." Murphy was the only player worth watching on America's Team, and for years he carried the entire banner of Southern baseball.
14. Did Murphy uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that is written into the Hall of Fame guidelines?
Yes, and then some. Murphy was perhaps the game's most approachable and friendly superstar. He was, in this way, the Stan Musial of his time.
15. Was Murphy especially popular and fun to watch?
Yes. Murphy was seen all over the country while playing for losing Braves teams, and he had an impact on fans. He was a fun player who played all out, covered a lot of ground with his long strides and had a big all-or-nothing type swing. Murphy was one of the most popular players of the 1980s, his posters were on the walls of many young fans. Even today, Murphy remains immensely popular because of his play and personality.
16. Was there anything particularly memorable about Murphy? Did he have any famous moments?
Murphy's unique ability was hitting opposite-field home runs. That is something that is common today because the players have grown so much stronger, but in the 1970s and 80s, you rarely saw players hit opposite-field home runs. Murphy did it routinely. His power was to right-center, and it was striking how his ball seemed to carry differently from other players.
As for famous moments, Murphy only played in one postseason, so he did not get the opportunity to have such a moment.
And at the end of the Keltner List, it seems to come down to this: Murphy was a Hall of Fame-level player for his seven or so years. And his career then crashed when he was still a relatively young man. So it comes down to this: Was he great for long enough?
I have heard Joe Morgan say that Richie Allen should be in the hall of fame.
Thanks for posting. A good friend with a vote has always used whether the player was a dominant player in the game for any period. Interestingly, we have had this conversation a couple of times as it specifically relates to Murphy given Murphy’s two time MVP years. Murphy is well respected universally in the game. His name probably will be discussed more going forward.
oh how i hope he comes home to play at some point in the near future
?? Baines' numbers are WAY better than Richie Allen's career numbers, across the board. Way better.
Dick Allen 58.7 WAR in 7315 plate appearances & 156 OPS+
Harold Baines 38.7 WAR in 11,092 plate appearances & 121 OPS+
not to mention that Allen had an MVP & ROY
Dick Allen was exponentially the better player
Allen also had over 1,000 fewer career hits, almost 500 fewer career RBI and 200 fewer career runs scored. While an MVP is certainly a helpful thing to have when you are a candidate for the Hall of Fame, I would submit that sustained excellence is more important, and that is borne out in career statistics like the ones I posted. Baines got more hits, scored more runs, and drove in more runs.
But at the end of the day, these debates are enjoyable. No way of definitively settling it..
Baines was a good player who played a very long time thus he has quantity of numbers. Allen was an excellent player who played about 7 years less. Baines played 22 years and Allen 15.
Per baseball reference, average 162 game season based upon career stats
Baines Allen
AVG .289 .292
OBP .356 .378
SLG .465 .534
OPS .820 .912
HR 22 33
RBI 93 104
I know which one I would want on my team over the other. Allen is forgotten because he was not good with the media and was outspoken.
I think sustained excellence matters for about 10 years. If you are one of the best players at your position for a decade you are a HOFer. I am really not a big fan of longevity getting players into the HOF. For example, Don Sutton is in the HOF, when I think about baseball in the 70's/80's Don Sutton does not come to mind as a great pitcher.
I’m just checking in after a full day to make sure. Is Harold Baines really going into the Hall of Fame?
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10000% agree! HOF contemporaries of Dick Allen have said he should be in the HOF. I believe Willie McCovey (RIP) said Allen was more deserving than he himself was. Allen had top end stats when compared to his contemporaries, in the "modern dead ball era" of late 60's/early 70's.
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HOF voting inevitably involves some tough and subjective decisions. Which statistics to assign more or less weight is certainly part of that. It seems obvious that there is more than one way to get to the Hall. You can make it with a shorter career if your statistics are truly great (e.g., Koufax), or you can make it if you have a lengthy career with good if not truly great stats (e.g., Don Sutton or Baines).
Would you prefer a guy who gets 3,000 hits in fifteen 200 hit seasons, or a guy who gets 3,000 hits in twenty 150 hit seasons? In my book, it is the same. The latter guy was not as splashy, but he was able to hang in the league and keep it going for twenty seasons. That is not easy. Players get cut all the time, and the average career is a fraction of twenty years.
You had to see Allen play. I was fortunate to watch his entire career. He might not have had Mantle sheer power but he was in the area code along with McCovey in the NL. He was a fearsome slugger for anyone who witnessed those titanic home runs.
It’s so hard to do this. Relief specialists in one era versus playing a lot of day games and poor travel in another era. One thing that is never discussed is the notion of race as well. Not to get preachy but you have to know Allen a bit as well. He grew up in a diverse area where he never recognized race as being an issue. Then the Phillies send him to Arkansas early on where he’s exposed to some really difficult and ugly situations. Plus he was very young relative to his peers that year in Arkansas.
I really think that year impacted his entire career and his life to some extent. The Phillies didn’t help him in that regard either, not recognizing that he was a sensitive kid. He was a mamma’s boy and that year had to sting him a lot.
His career cumulative numbers suffered as a result of this and he has himself to “blame” for this.
But put both players in their best years next to each other and it isn’t close if you saw both play.
except it wasnt sustained excellence for Baines. it was sustained above average play that mostly occurred due to the DH
but yes, i agree.... i love these type of debates
5 years got Koufax in .... now they were certainly incredible years, but there was only 5 of them
Check out Sutton's win (324) and strikeout (3,574) totals and tell me he doesn't belong. Steve Carlton had only five more career wins (329), and their respective career ERA's were 3.22 (Carlton) and 3.26 (Sutton). Are you gonna tell me that Lefty doesn't belong, either?
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He's the unicorn; the absolute exception to the rule. His numbers during that span were mind blowing.
If you didn't like him or the way he played, fine. That must be what the writers are holding against him, because it certainly is not his stats: .292/.393/.514/.907 with 509 home runs, 253 stolen bases, 2,689 hits, nine all-star games, a career WAR that's on par with Harmon Killebrew and Willie McCovey (all three played 22 seasons), and a stretch run in his prime that was as good any non-PED-implicated player in the 1990s.
Except Sheff did juice even though he says he was not aware that the cream was a steroid.
OK, OK. I retract saying "non-PED-implicated." I honestly was not aware (or forgot) Sheffield's connections to the BALCO scandal.
Even still, that opens up another can of worms regarding Pudge Rodriguez, as well as David Ortiz's inevitable induction. I think all of them, as well as Bonds, Clemens, Manny Ramirez, A-Rod, deserve to be in the Hall. That's all a different conversation, but one whose hypocrisy by Hall of Fame voters deserves far more scrutiny than whatever happens with Harold Baines.
We will never know the extent of every one of these guys other than that spaceshot Manny Ramirez. Sheff might have been legitimately telling the truth. Not to mention that many suspect Bagwell and Piazza were not clean either.
The Hall of Fame, and the BBWAA, disagree with you.
He was never a great pitcher. Really good for a number of years, not great.
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I never thought of Sutton as a HOFer. He won 20 games only once with very good LA Dodger teams and never struck out more than 209 in a season, striking out 200+ only five times in a long career.
He was an All-Star four times and led in ERA just once, and shutouts just once.
He was good for a long, long time and his career numbers are HOF worthy.
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