Gun Law Question

bourbon n blues

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We agree on most issues and we even agree to a large degree on gun issues. We just don't agree on your inflexible position that dies nothing new to jeep guns out of the hands of bad guys. I think you're wrong about losing 20% of voters. Polls show that 58% of Americans support more strict regulations.

This is the article I mentioned , he correctly debunks all of the knee jerk reactions I see people suggest in these cases.
 

bdgan

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This is the article I mentioned , he correctly debunks all of the knee jerk reactions I see people suggest in these cases.
I read it and I agree with much of it. I support armed security officers in schools but I don't think it's realistic to arm teachers.

I've repeatedly criticized democrats for their political stance against AR15s. 15,000 gun murders per year and less than 3% of them are committed with what they call "assault" weapons.

Our difference us that I'm willing to compromise on some small things in order to get bigger things that would help keep guns away from the bad guys.
 

psuted

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Study these killers, get rid of gun free zones. They target these areas. Specifically because these psychos target them. I always hear cries of bullying but in this case you had a son of a druggie mom with no dad in the picture living with his grandparents.
I’m sure he had a lot of resentment against those who lived more normal live.
Next follow safety procedures, you will learn that missions fail and succeed due to the good guys following the plan and exploiting the mistakes of the bad guys.
It works in reverse also.
Allow certified volunteers to carry concealed and anonymously in the school. Keep it private and on a need to know basis . Hire vets who are also trained to do make work maintenance jobs at minimum wage at the school on a part time basis .
Allow them to participate in the program also , and if the budget is tight as then to volunteer.

Good ideas.

Study the killers and what motivated them to do these things is exactly what needs to be done. And I think you’ll find that there may be many reasons behind their actions and some of those issues may be so random and impossible to address. But I do think you’ll find a common theme that needs to be considered and instead of spending billions of dollars on helping other countries, perhaps we can spend those funds here and help head these issues off before they get out of control.

And your right, there are some things that are just evil and we’ll never be able to fully eliminate them. So we need to put the fear of “intimate objects” aside and do what’s needed to protect ourselves and our kids and that may involve using those “intimate objects” in a positive way and to our advantage. I’ve never been a fan of “gun free zones” as criminals, crazy people, and irresponsible people don’t respect such laws anyway.

Unfortunately, The only things that hold us up from addressing these issues with real solutions is fear, ignorance, and politics.
 
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bourbon n blues

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Good ideas.

Study the killers and what motivated them to do these things is exactly what needs to be done. And I think you’ll find that there may be many reasons behind their actions and some of those issues may be so random and impossible to address. But I do think you’ll find a common theme that needs to be considered and instead of spending billions of dollars on helping other countries, perhaps we can spend those funds here and help head these issues off before they get out of control.

And your right, there are some things that are just evil and we’ll never be able to fully eliminate them. So we need to put the fear of “intimate objects” aside and do what’s needed to protect ourselves and our kids and that may involve using those “intimate objects” in a positive way and to our advantage. I’ve never been a fan of “gun free zones” as criminals, crazy people, and irresponsible people don’t respect such laws anyway.

Unfortunately, The only thing that holds us up from addressing these issues with real solutions is fear and politics.
Schumer refused to talk about school security issues and wants to focus on gun control. Democrats want control , they don’t care if it’s fixed.
 

bourbon n blues

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Good ideas.

Study the killers and what motivated them to do these things is exactly what needs to be done. And I think you’ll find that there may be many reasons behind their actions and some of those issues may be so random and impossible to address. But I do think you’ll find a common theme that needs to be considered and instead of spending billions of dollars on helping other countries, perhaps we can spend those funds here and help head these issues off before they get out of control.

And your right, there are some things that are just evil and we’ll never be able to fully eliminate them. So we need to put the fear of “intimate objects” aside and do what’s needed to protect ourselves and our kids and that may involve using those “intimate objects” in a positive way and to our advantage. I’ve never been a fan of “gun free zones” as criminals, crazy people, and irresponsible people don’t respect such laws anyway.

Unfortunately, The only things that hold us up from addressing these issues with real solutions is fear, ignorance, and politics.
If police officers can chat up potential child molesters they can monitor chat sights for these psychos , however I don’t trust the process .
 

jjw165

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My wife and I ate dinner yesterday at the bar and grille. We spoke with an instructor who works at a local Vo-tech school and eventually he brought up the shooting in Texas. He went on to say that he is a teacher willing to get a CCL and be trained to carry in a school. He’s of the philosophy that what deters a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Whether that be armed guards at school, a teacher concealed carrying or a combination of the two. He doesn’t want to be a sitting duck without a way to defend himself.
 
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bourbon n blues

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My wife and I ate dinner yesterday at the local bar and grille. We spoke with an instructor who works at a local Vo-tech school and eventually he brought up the shooting in Texas. He went on to say that he is a teacher willing to get a CCL and be trained to carry in a school. He’s of the philosophy that what deters a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Whether that be armed guards at school, a teacher concealed carrying or a combination of the two. He doesn’t want to be a sitting duck without a way to defend himself.
It is in place in some areas.
 
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bdgan

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Schumer refused to talk about school security issues and wants to focus on gun control. Democrats want control , they don’t care if it’s fixed.
We agree on this. I'll stop short of saying they don't want it fixed but they definitely want the political issue.

The FBI collects data on “active shooter incidents,” which it defines as “one or more individuals actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a populated area.” Using the FBI’s definition, 38 people – excluding the shooters – died in such incidents in 2020.

The Gun Violence Archive, an online database of gun violence incidents in the U.S., defines mass shootings as incidents in which four or more people are shot, even if no one was killed (again excluding the shooters). Using this definition, 513 people died in these incidents in 2020.

Regardless of the definition being used, fatalities in mass shooting incidents in the U.S. account for a small fraction of all gun murders that occur nationwide each year.

 

psuted

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Schumer refused to talk about school security issues and wants to focus on gun control. Democrats want control , they don’t care if it’s fixed.

And I’m convinced that will never change. Until voters realize that they are being played for fools by these self serving politicians that are ruining this country and are more interested in dividing the country for cheap political advantage, we’ll continue to have the same problems. I don’t know what it takes for people to realize the games that are being played by these big government power hungry clowns.
 

jjw165

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It is in place in some areas.
This paragraph explains precisely our Vo-tech teacher friend who is willing to conceal carry at school.

“Don’t make it mandatory. In my experience, the only people who are worth a darn with a gun are the ones who wish to take responsibility and carry a gun. Make it voluntary. It is rather simple. Just make it so that your state’s concealed weapons laws trump the Federal Gun Free School Zones act. All that means is that teachers who voluntarily decide to get a concealed weapons permit are capable of carrying their guns at work. Easy. Simple. Cheap. Available now.”
 
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Hotshoe

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I definitely support armed protection in our schools, but definitely not the teachers. That’s like having armed tellers in a bank. Let the professionals do their jobs.
 

psuted

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My wife and I ate dinner yesterday at the local bar and grille. We spoke with an instructor who works at a local Vo-tech school and eventually he brought up the shooting in Texas. He went on to say that he is a teacher willing to get a CCL and be trained to carry in a school. He’s of the philosophy that what deters a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Whether that be armed guards at school, a teacher concealed carrying or a combination of the two. He doesn’t want to be a sitting duck without a way to defend himself.

I honestly don’t see a problem with that. I suspect that most teachers will not want to have CCL, but if there are teachers willing to get a CCL and understand the responsibility that goes along with CCL, then why not. It should be allowed but not publicized.

I always tell people that having a CCL is not for everyone and has a ton of responsibility that goes along with it. Under no circumstances do you publicize that fact that you have a CCL, and you first need to have proper training and respect for guns. And most importantly, you need to convince yourself that you will only pull out that gun and use it if you’re sure you have no other choice, and are willing to take on the burden of taking someone else’s life. No matter how bad that other person was, it’s still something that will stay with you for the rest of your life and you must convince yourself that you’re willing to accept that burden.
 

m.knox

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Most on this thread seem to disagree.

That being said, how unproductive this has been to even get a person to answer the question is, in itself, probably the answer.

Denying one their right is a slippery slope. Let's say we create a "do not sell" list with a formal process to get someone on that list. Once an individual is alerted to the fact he or she is on the list, that might even harden the resolve of the individual to obtain a gun and perhaps motivate violence.

One thing I think would go to great lengths to help the problem is if the left would stop fomenting hate and division. Individuals start to think they are the victim, or on the other hand start to resent that fact that individuals are playing a victim. Hate should not have a home in the USA, and democrats should not motivate people to hate.
 

DandyDonII

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Incarceration has arguably the single lowest evidentiary record of rehabilitation of any available option, and a high evidentiary record of increasing criminal behavior.
ha ha, how many 24 year old gang bangers do you think are getting rehabilitated in any sort of system? Yes, they live in terrible households for 20 years, surrounded by other gangsters, never went to school, name your drug of choice, any hopes of actual rehabilitation are so low it is comical.
The incarceration for this is two fold 1) deterrence and 2) public safety, when they are in prison they aren't terrorizing the law abiding public. Rehabilitation is a pipe dream for most after you become an adult (also extremely difficult in juvenile despite the massive amount of resources used).
 
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DandyDonII

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This is not just about republicans standing up to democrats. It's about showing the voters you're serious about addressing the issue.

I've stated that some additional gun control legislation would probably only save 50 lives per year but that number could be higher if combined with things like red flag laws, mandatory sentencing, etc.

Offering no plan and no flexibility looks like you care mire about support from the NRA than you do about kids getting murdered.

IMO Republicans need to offer a plan whose theme is 1) protecting second amendment rights for law biding citizens while 2) also working hard to keep weapons out of the hands of dangerous people.

Digging your heels in on #1 without focusing on #2 does nothing to address the problem, shows no flexibility, and is a big turn off to 58% of American voters who think we need stricter gun laws.

 

bourbon n blues

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ha ha, how many 24 year old gang bangers do you think are getting rehabilitated in any sort of system? Yes, they live in terrible households for 20 years, surrounded by other gangsters, never went to school, name your drug of choice, any hopes of actual rehabilitation are so low it is comical.
The incarceration for this is two fold 1) deterrence and 2) public safety, when they are in prison they aren't terrorizing the law abiding public. Rehabilitation is a pipe dream for most after you become an adult (also extremely difficult in juvenile despite the massive amount of resources used).
They've been prehabiltated into a life of crime.
 

psuted

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I am not.

To be more specific: what is the pushback against tightening gun laws in basic, non-threatening ways [WHICH WOULD NOT IN ANY CAPACITY HINDER ANY OTHER CHANGES AND WHICH WOULD NOT MAKE GETTING A GUN “HARD” BY ANY MEANS]?

In my defense, this question was already rather directly stated, with examples, but all those words.

What would strengthening gun laws accomplish in terms of solving anything other than to undermine the right to posess guns by law abiding citizens and give big government more control?
 

bourbon n blues

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You are taking a Forbes poll with what kind of sampling on people who do not understand current laws and how they work and why and how new rules will not affect crime and punish the law abiding.
Want to squash a red wave, do this. Don't believe that'll happen, ask yourself what would happen to the Democrat party is 20% vote Republican? Now say 5-10% of hard core gun rights people who are Republican or Republican voters stay home?
 
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Gnat91

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Jacksonville FL.
I really don't care about any of your points. At issue is the damage to the GOP brand and the ability to get people elected. You wouldn't be "losing rights" but tweaking processes within those rights. The bottom line is, it is just a matter of time until these kinds of measures are made into law. It is just a matter of how much political loss the GOP suffers along the way.
Nothing is going to be done. Both sides will have their say, prayers all around and the next school shooting will happen a month from now.. this will continue until the end of time.
We should have learned from columbine, but apparently didn't.
 

psuted

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You are taking a Forbes poll with what kind of sampling on people who do not understand current laws and how they work and why and how new rules will not affect crime and punish the law abiding.
Want to squash a red wave, do this. Don't believe that'll happen, ask yourself what would happen to the Democrat party is 20% vote Republican? Now say 5-10% of hard core gun rights people who are Republican or Republican voters stay home?

And that’s precisely the problem, the people with the biggest mouths but are totally uninformed about current laws are the same people pushing more ineffective and meaningless laws. They don’t know what they’re talking about.
 

bourbon n blues

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Nothing is going to be done. Both sides will have their say, prayers all around and the next school shooting will happen a month from now.. this will continue until the end of time.
We should have learned from columbine, but apparently didn't.
The end of the Republicans will come more from abandoning gun owners than pushing sensible laws to enhance safety .
 
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bourbon n blues

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And that’s precisely the problem, the people with the biggest mouths but are totally uninformed about current laws are the same people pushing more ineffective and meaningless laws. They don’t know what they’re talking about.
Why should accept restrictions when cops are going to wait outside while I get shot?
 
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bourbon n blues

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Face it bourbon, I’m pro-cop, but the only person looking out for the safety of you and your family is you. I try not to put myself or my family in a position where i must be rescued by others, if i can help it.
I’m with you. I’m getting very much me and mine and that’s it.
 
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brupsu

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I'll expand a little guns are semi automatic or automatic. They also call them fully auto or machine guns or pistols. The term semiautomatic is not interchangeable with automatic or fully auto. When people can't keep that straight I tend to think they're not being honest. There is another that would be bolt action as in most hunting rifles
 

QuePasaNisiMasa

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One thing I think would go to great lengths to help the problem is if the left would stop fomenting hate and division. Individuals start to think they are the victim, or on the other hand start to resent that fact that individuals are playing a victim. Hate should not have a home in the USA, and democrats should not motivate people to hate.
Hold on.

giphy-downsized-large.gif


Is it your honest opinion that the left is overwhelmingly leading (ie enough to be the sole group cited to blame in mass shootings, despite the content of the several manifestos fwiw) the race in propagating hate and division?
 

QuePasaNisiMasa

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ha ha, how many 24 year old gang bangers do you think are getting rehabilitated in any sort of system? Yes, they live in terrible households for 20 years, surrounded by other gangsters, never went to school, name your drug of choice, any hopes of actual rehabilitation are so low it is comical.
The incarceration for this is two fold 1) deterrence and 2) public safety, when they are in prison they aren't terrorizing the law abiding public. Rehabilitation is a pipe dream for most after you become an adult (also extremely difficult in juvenile despite the massive amount of resources used).
I just said (effectively) "jail doesn't work" and your response is "ha ha, you idiot, jail doesn't work"

Yinz is a rool genius, huh?
 

QuePasaNisiMasa

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What would strengthening gun laws accomplish in terms of solving anything other than to undermine the right to posess guns by law abiding citizens and give big government more control?
It would prevent people that we don't want having guns getting guns.

There is a 'cigarettes cause cancer' level of evidence (in addition to fact that it is ****ing obvious) that guns come from whatever adjacent state has lax gun laws. That is also pretty damning evidence that places with stricter gun laws keep guns out of the hands of people we don't want having them (ie if they need people to travel elsewhere to get them).

IN ANY CASE, that isn't what this is (or was ever) about. It is about kids getting guns. So give me one good reason why it is necessary and/or beneficial that people under 21 can buy assault rifles.

PLEASE NOTE: Obviously a shooting can be carried out with any type of gun, but a person gets the most bang for their buck with any weapon with the highest capacity combined with rate of fire ESPECIALLY untrained users (ie kids) who aren't going to be maximizing the potential output of weapons with lower capacities. In respect to the life of your argument, I won't even get into muzzle velocity and the heightened damage therein.
 
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DandyDonII

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I just said (effectively) "jail doesn't work" and your response is "ha ha, you idiot, jail doesn't work"

Yinz is a rool genius, huh?
not at all, jail works, jail keeps bad guys from hurting innocents for prolonged periods of time...It works great, except when guards fall in love and help the inmate break out....I am just not ignorant enough to consider rehabilitation as any sort of realistic goal for the vast majority of the criminal population.
 

bourbon n blues

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not at all, jail works, jail keeps bad guys from hurting innocents for prolonged periods of time...It works great, except when guards fall in love and help the inmate break out....I am just not ignorant enough to consider rehabilitation as any sort of realistic goal for the vast majority of the criminal population.
They like crime or don’t have the capacity to re enter society successfully. Or both.
 

m.knox

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Hold on.

giphy-downsized-large.gif


Is it your honest opinion that the left is overwhelmingly leading (ie enough to be the sole group cited to blame in mass shootings, despite the content of the several manifestos fwiw) the race in propagating hate and division?

I absolutely believe the left throwing up hate every single damn day of the year absolutely impacts violence.

I mean, when you call 50% of your nation homophobes, misogynists, racists, fascists, nazis.... some on the left are going to believe it, and that it is OK to kill them.

You really don't see that?
 

QuePasaNisiMasa

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I absolutely believe the left throwing up hate every single damn day of the year absolutely impacts violence.

I mean, when you call 50% of your nation homophobes, misogynists, racists, fascists, nazis.... some on the left are going to believe it, and that it is OK to kill them.

You really don't see that?
I certainly see the left throwing out their share of shade, and I would consider them most hypocritical and most counter-productive in that effort for sure.

But I would also certainly give the right the clear lead in espousing “Hate.” The theory that the states that have historically made up the rockbed of American Racism/Bigotry are somehow, almost magically so, now no longer that is an argument that quite literally collapses on itself. And I don’t think calling a bigot a bigot is mean or hateful.

I would also say that, and that any measurement of any relevant metric would correlate, the right leads (and by more than a head) in catching bodies. Which is prettttty hateful.
 

m.knox

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I certainly see the left throwing out their share of shade, and I would consider them most hypocritical and most counter-productive in that effort for sure.

But I would also certainly give the right the clear lead in espousing “Hate.” The theory that the states that have historically made up the rockbed of American Racism/Bigotry are somehow, almost magically so, now no longer that is an argument that quite literally collapses on itself. And I don’t think calling a bigot a bigot is mean or hateful.

I would also say that, and that any measurement of any relevant metric would correlate, the right leads (and by more than a head) in catching bodies. Which is prettttty hateful.

I would never argue that. The very first time I experienced racism was in Georgia. I was sitting with the guy having a beer and drunk southern boy was giggling and mumbling something about "celebrating".... It was MLK day (I didn't even know it).

I told the guy that I thought that shit only happened in the movies. He just laughed.

That said, go out to any most any restaurant in Atlanta, and you will see a mixed race couple taking a meal.