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"Greatest hitter that ever lived" ....

So it appears as though seeing the seems on the ball falls into the same category as Ruth pointing to where he was going to hit a home run. BUT, it does make things interesting and fun to discuss.

Another trivial type question/opinion - some experts have said that the pitching of today is far better than at any time in the past, meaning the "depth" makes it near impossible to have a 400 hitter?
 
jj410 said:
ou are obviously no expert, since you obviously have no clue what you are talking about.
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What part of I'm not an expert didn't you understand? Also, I said that the list of other players was not all inclusive. Are you having a bad day or do you just like making your self seem superior?
 
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fairgambit said:
Hey ILLINOIS. How's Fonzie?
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Thanks for asking.....eleven days now, incredible to see his personality and self-confidence explode. As well as his energy.....and my lack of energy. He's a handful but really helping me recover from losing Bailey.

He adapted to the crate training remarkably well, sleeps right beside my bed with no fussing. I would have bet my season tickets he'd be sleeping in bed beginning eleven nights ago, but other than a few minutes the first night he's really adapted very well. (Wait, I gave up my season tickets about 6-7 years ago after 25 years and three different locations. I was ALWAYS proud to tell people that I was a PENN STATE SEASON TICKET HOLDER!) He loves all his various toys, especially loves taking them one-by-one from the living room to the bedroom. Got his first mini tennis ball today and he and the ball are having fun on the wooden floors in the front of the house. As I think I said I had two puppies before, Butler 1993 and Bailey 2000 and I have found out I remembered NOTHING from those days.

Thanks again for posting his two pics.....he's as cute in person as he was in those two pics!

1) Hope you are well and 2) I miss thread view.....I feel like my life has changed and it's not all due to Fonzie!
 
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ILLINOISLION said:
Thanks for asking.....eleven days now, incredible to see his personality and self-confidence explode. As well as his energy.....and my lack of energy. He's a handful but really helping me recover from losing Bailey.

He adapted to the crate training remarkably well, sleeps right beside my bed with no fussing. I would have bet my season tickets he'd be sleeping in bed beginning eleven nights ago, but other than a few minutes the first night he's really adapted very well. (Wait, I gave up my season tickets about 6-7 years ago after 25 years and three different locations. I was ALWAYS proud to tell people that I was a PENN STATE SEASON TICKET HOLDER!) He loves all his various toys, especially loves taking them one-by-one from the living room to the bedroom. Got his first mini tennis ball today and he and the ball are having fun on the wooden floors in the front of the house. As I think I said I had two puppies before, Butler 1993 and Bailey 2000 and I have found out I remembered NOTHING from those days.

Thanks again for posting his two pics.....he's as cute in person as he was in those two pics!

1) Hope you are well and 2) I miss thread view.....I feel like my life has changed and it's not all due to Fonzie!
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I'm glad to hear all is going so well. I am well myself, and I also miss thread view. Speaking for many here, your wit is missed. I hope you'll come back more often.
 
john4psu said:
Myths and facts about Ted Williams' vision:

http://richmondoptometry.blogspot.com/2011/01/myths-and-facts-about-ted-williams.html

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/sbbw0725.htm
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According to various sites on the interwebs, the limits of human vision are around 20/8.
An eagle has about 20/4 vision.
Ted Williams was no eagle.
By any measure, the idea that he was a greater hitter than Ruth is still utter nonsense parroted by people too lazy to do any research.
 
jj410 said:
For that matter, BABE RUTH WAS A PITCHER HIS FIRST FIVE SEASONS (and a great one at that). So why don't we ever hear "If Ruth hadn't wasted five seasons as a pitcher, he would have hit 900 HRs instead of a mere 714"?)
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That would not have happened. Let's look at his record. His first season (1914), he got into 5 games total. That really doesn't count. By 1919, while he was still a pitcher, he played in 130 games. Little difference there. In 1918, he was in 95 games. That's still a fair bit of games. But looking at "missing" at bats for those 4 years (1915-1918), he might have had about 1600 AB, based on an average of about 600 a year. That comes out to a little over 100 extra HRs. *BUT* it was also the "dead ball era". He may not have hit that many at all. Look at what he did hit in 1915-1918. 20 HR in slightly less than 800 AB total. So had he not been exclusively a pitcher, based on his hitting in 1915-1918, one might have expected about 15-18 HR/year--or about 50 more than he actually hit.
 
I always had Williams at #2 all time and Ruth as #1.

Ruth was a walk machine, his ability to work counts and draw walks was amazing.
 
kgilbert78 said:
That would not have happened. Let's look at his record. His first season (1914), he got into 5 games total. That really doesn't count. By 1919, while he was still a pitcher, he played in 130 games. Little difference there. In 1918, he was in 95 games. That's still a fair bit of games. But looking at "missing" at bats for those 4 years (1915-1918), he might have had about 1600 AB, based on an average of about 600 a year. That comes out to a little over 100 extra HRs. *BUT* it was also the "dead ball era". He may not have hit that many at all. Look at what he did hit in 1915-1918. 20 HR in slightly less than 800 AB total. So had he not been exclusively a pitcher, based on his hitting in 1915-1918, one might have expected about 15-18 HR/year--or about 50 more than he actually hit.
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There was also a stupid rule which had Ruth's homer numbers less then if it was today.

I forgot what the rule was.
 
kgilbert78 said:
That would not have happened. Let's look at his record. His first season (1914), he got into 5 games total. That really doesn't count. By 1919, while he was still a pitcher, he played in 130 games. Little difference there. In 1918, he was in 95 games. That's still a fair bit of games. But looking at "missing" at bats for those 4 years (1915-1918), he might have had about 1600 AB, based on an average of about 600 a year. That comes out to a little over 100 extra HRs. *BUT* it was also the "dead ball era". He may not have hit that many at all. Look at what he did hit in 1915-1918. 20 HR in slightly less than 800 AB total. So had he not been exclusively a pitcher, based on his hitting in 1915-1918, one might have expected about 15-18 HR/year--or about 50 more than he actually hit.
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Good catch.
Interesting though is that those extra 50 would put him at 764, which would make him the all-time HR leader rather than #3 behind Bonds and Aaron.
In which case no one would be saying "Ted Williams is without a doubt the greatest hitter of all time." which is the point.
 
PennStateNate said:
There was also a stupid rule which had Ruth's homer numbers less then if it was today.

I forgot what the rule was.
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From wikipedia; Ruth's 60th home run in 1927 was somewhat controversial, because it landed barely in fair territory in the stands down the right field line. Ruth lost a number of home runs in his career due to the when-last-seen rule. Bill Jenkinson, in The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs, estimates that Ruth lost at least 50 and as many as 78 in his career due to this rule. Further, the rules once stipulated that an over-the-fence home run in a sudden-victory situation would only count for as many bases as was necessary to "force" the winning run home. For example, if a team trailed by two runs with the bases loaded, and the batter hit a fair ball over the fence, it only counted as a triple, because the runner immediately ahead of him had technically already scored the game-winning run. That rule was changed in the 1920s as home runs became increasingly frequent and popular. Babe Ruth's career total of 714 would have been one higher had that rule not been in effect in the early part of his career.

Also, Ruth played when the season was 154 games. So he may have "lost" 176 games over his career compared to today's players (as did Williams).

Other interesting facts: Some think Josh Gibson of the Negro Leagues, who had comparable power to Ruth, may have been the greatest hitter. Some estimate his HR total at 800-950.
Ruth has the longest verifiable HR on record: 575 feet, though others claim Gibson hit one out of Yankee Stadium, something no one else including Ruth has done.
 
It is awfully hard to compare players from different eras but I am disappointed in the lack of attention given to one Ty Cobb here. Cobb thoroughly dominated his era. Moreover he mentored Harry Heilmann, hitting-wise. Heilmann went on to win a number of batting titles in his own right.
 
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dawgduice said:
is an ESPN piece on Ted Williams and his daughter. I do not know if he was the greatest. But I do recall when being asked about what he looked for when he hit the ball. His reply "I always like to get the face of the bat on the flat part of the ball between the seems". Is it even possible to "see" the ball that well? I do know that when his vision was tested when inducted into the military the examining doctor said he had the best vision of anyone he ever tested. I assume that was one reason he was made a pilot.

Any baseball guys know anything about this info?
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There's no doubt about it. Williams hit .370 when he was 38 years old. The year he hit .406 the season ended with a doube-header in Cleveland. The Boston manager said to Williams, "I'm sitting you today because your average is .3996 which will round up to .400." Williams replied, "I'm playing both games." He went 6 for 8 and finished at .406. And ya shoulda seen him throw a trout fly! Lost four seasons to military service - and was a jet ace in Korean War.
 
bdgan said:
For average but not run production. Williams is not top 10 in runs scored or RBIs. Ruth, Aaron, etc. rank higher.

I vaguely remember 2 things Williams said. One was that umps could see a pitch location within 1/2 inch but he could see it within 1/4 inch. The other was that he tried to see the ball contact the bat.
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Williams legend: He's at bat, facing a hot-shot rookie pitcher who fires one in there that's just off the outside corner. The umpire calls it a ball. The rookie comes down off the mound and yells to the ump, "Are you sure that wasn't a strike?" The umpire takes off his mask and says, "If that had been a strike, Mr. Williams would have let you know."
 
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Obliviax said:
TW was great...its hard to measure given the lack of video exposure. But a guy playing today is got to be in the top ten: Miguel Cabrera won the triple crown last year. That''s almost unheard of with today's pitching and technology.

Another one is Ty Cobb. Played in such a different era but the dude was always on base on the dead ball era. He practiced techniques that today's batters should review (especially with the new defensive shifts being deployed).
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Yes, but in today's game pitchers are spread across thirty teams and there are many who would never have made the majors back then.
 
Paruffus said:
Williams legend: He's at bat, facing a hot-shot rookie pitcher who fires one in there that's just off the outside corner. The umpire calls it a ball. The rookie comes down off the mound and yells to the ump, "Are you sure that wasn't a strike?" The umpire takes off his mask and says, "If that had been a strike, Mr. Williams would have let you know."
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Absolutely terrific story. Thanks!
 
bdgan said:
For average but not run production. Williams is not top 10 in runs scored or RBIs. Ruth, Aaron, etc. rank higher.

I vaguely remember 2 things Williams said. One was that umps could see a pitch location within 1/2 inch but he could see it within 1/4 inch. The other was that he tried to see the ball contact the bat.
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Aaron had 12,364 ab, Ruth 8,379, Ted Williams 7,706.. Apples and Oranges. He was still the greatest hitter ever.
 
dawgduice said:
is an ESPN piece on Ted Williams and his daughter. I do not know if he was the greatest. But I do recall when being asked about what he looked for when he hit the ball. His reply "I always like to get the face of the bat on the flat part of the ball between the seems". Is it even possible to "see" the ball that well? I do know that when his vision was tested when inducted into the military the examining doctor said he had the best vision of anyone he ever tested. I assume that was one reason he was made a pilot.

Any baseball guys know anything about this info?
Click to expand...

I'll go with Williams, then Cobb followed by DiMaggio, Ruth, and Gehrig then finish with the "modern" quartet that faced a lot more quality pitching: Rose, Carew and Gwynn and Boggs.
 
ApexLion said:
I'll go with Williams, then Cobb followed by DiMaggio, Ruth, and Gehrig then finish with the "modern" quartet that faced a lot more quality pitching: Rose, Carew and Gwynn and Boggs.
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greatest hitter of all time?? I am going with Dick Butkus or Willie Lanier!! Of course they played at a time you could hit!!! Jack Tatum would not be far behind!!
 
jj410 said:
By any measure, the idea that he was a greater hitter than Ruth is still utter nonsense parroted by people too lazy to do any research.
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Dude, why don't you remove your Yankee cap before continuing to lecture us about what fools we are to deny the supremacy of the Babe. Ruth was a great hitter, no doubt, but to say there is no argument is silly. Ruth had Gehrig hitting behind him for most of his career. As I recall, Ruth had several other good hitters in that lineup as well. Who hit behind Williams? How far is it from home plate to the right field fence in Yankee Stadium? 330 feet, tops. You can dismiss the four years that Williams missed, but they were in the prime of his career. His HR numbers would surely have been close to Ruth's numbers had he played those four years. I'm a Dodger fan, by the way, so I do not have a dog in this hunt.
 
Paruffus said:
Williams legend: He's at bat, facing a hot-shot rookie pitcher who fires one in there that's just off the outside corner. The umpire calls it a ball. The rookie comes down off the mound and yells to the ump, "Are you sure that wasn't a strike?" The umpire takes off his mask and says, "If that had been a strike, Mr. Williams would have let you know."
Click to expand...

I've heard the same story before, but attributed to Joe Dimaggio. Either way it's a great story if true.
 
LafayetteBear said:
Dude, why don't you remove your Yankee cap before continuing to lecture us about what fools we are to deny the supremacy of the Babe. Ruth was a great hitter, no doubt, but to say there is no argument is silly. Ruth had Gehrig hitting behind him for most of his career. As I recall, Ruth had several other good hitters in that lineup as well. Who hit behind Williams? How far is it from home plate to the right field fence in Yankee Stadium? 330 feet, tops. You can dismiss the four years that Williams missed, but they were in the prime of his career. His HR numbers would surely have been close to Ruth's numbers had he played those four years. I'm a Dodger fan, by the way, so I do not have a dog in this hunt.
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I am not a Yankee fan, clown. I got static here by saying Jeter's retirement was overhyped.
Every expert statistician, such as Bill James, agrees with me based on hard cold stats. Period. The statistics are clear. End of story.
If you want to do what ifs, fine. But what if Ruth hadn't started his career as a pitcher for four years in the dead ball era, clown? That's at least 100 more HRs.
 
jj410 said:
I am not a Yankee fan, clown. I got static here by saying Jeter's retirement was overhyped.
Every expert statistician, such as Bill James, agrees with me based on hard cold stats. Period. The statistics are clear. End of story.
If you want to do what ifs, fine. But what if Ruth hadn't started his career as a pitcher for four years in the dead ball era, clown? That's at least 100 more HRs.
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You displayed your ignorance with that post. End of story.
 
I recall reading that a year when Jimmie Foxx had 58 HRs he actually had 61 but three were taken away in "rain" shortened games.
 
A child of the 70's I loved Frank Robinson who won the triple crown in both leagues, but it's hard to beat Williams. As far as playoffs, Clemente was the most clutch hitter taking down the last team with four 20 game winners on it same year. Incredible performance!
 
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Louisville JD said:
A child of the 70's I loved Frank Robinson who won the triple crown in both leagues, but it's hard to beat Williams. As far as playoffs, Clemente was the most clutch hitter taking down the last team with four 20 game winners on it same year. Incredible performance!
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I agree. Robinson was a great player and a class act.
 
LionJim said:
Yes, perhaps it was just that that made him great.

Apparently he was a very difficult man to get along with, a loner, had to win every argument, everything had to be done his way. He had a terrible childhood, his mother's life revolved around the Salvation Army (she never once saw him play with Boston, even though she died after he retired). At the same time, his HOF speech is a wonderful piece of work, linked:
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/27/throwback-ted-williams-hall-of-fame-speech/
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Thank you. I always liked Ted Williams but that speech is priceless.
 
In early 1986, Peter Gammons, who worked for Sports Illustrated then, brought together the legendary Ted Williams with Wade Boggs and Don Mattingly. It was an incredible discussion about style, ideals, and beliefs concerning the "art" of hitting. I would recommend researching this article if baseball and hitting are part of your interests.
 
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