"Greatest hitter that ever lived" ....

[dawgduice]

is an ESPN piece on Ted Williams and his daughter. I do not know if he was the greatest. But I do recall when being asked about what he looked for when he hit the ball. His reply "I always like to get the face of the bat on the flat part of the ball between the seems". Is it even possible to "see" the ball that well? I do know that when his vision was tested when inducted into the military the examining doctor said he had the best vision of anyone he ever tested. I assume that was one reason he was made a pilot.

Any baseball guys know anything about this info?

 

[Ranger Dan]

I'm not an "expert", but in my opinion there is absolutely zero debate about who the greatest hitter was. It's Ted Williams and not even close. He may fall behind others when you add in defense and winning, but is still in the conversation for best position player ever. Others in the conversation include: Ruth, Cobb, Gherig, Mantle, Mays, Rose, Dimaggio... I'm sure that I'm forgetting some worthy players. I did not forget Bonds, but left him out (and other steroid era players) because I don't think it's fair to compare them.

 

[Marylovesthelions]

Absolutely. No one is even a close second. Can you imagine what he would have done had he not served 4-5 years in the military during the war? I think he hit a homer for each t9ime at bat his last year at about 40 years old.

 

[fairgambit]

I'm not an "expert", but in my opinion there is absolutely zero debate about who the greatest hitter was. It's Ted Williams and not even close. He may fall behind others when you add in defense and winning, but is still in the conversation for best position player ever. Others in the conversation include: Ruth, Cobb, Gherig, Mantle, Mays, Rose, Dimaggio... I'm sure that I'm forgetting some worthy players. I did not forget Bonds, but left him out (and other steroid era players) because I don't think it's fair to compare them.

I am an expert and....OK, I'm really not an expert, but I absolutely agree. Williams was the greatest hitter. Many people put Ruth second and Williams, in listing the best other than himself, named Ruth #1. I agree there too. This vignette will tell you all you need to know about how great Williams was. He could have sat out the final game of the 41' season and finish with a .400 average, but he chose to play a doubleheader and went 4/5 and then 2/3 to finish at .406. By the way, in 41', unlike today, a sacrifice fly was considered a time at bat, so Williams, under present rules, would have hit for an even higher average.

 

[bdgan]

For average but not run production. Williams is not top 10 in runs scored or RBIs. Ruth, Aaron, etc. rank higher.

I vaguely remember 2 things Williams said. One was that umps could see a pitch location within 1/2 inch but he could see it within 1/4 inch. The other was that he tried to see the ball contact the bat.

 

[fairgambit]

For average but not run production. Williams is not top 10 in runs scored or RBIs. Ruth, Aaron, etc. rank higher.
I vaguely remember 2 things Williams said. One was that umps could see a pitch location within 1/2 inch but he could see it within 1/4 inch. The other was that he tried to see the ball contact the bat.

True, but in the heart of his career, Williams served 3 years in the service in World War II (when he came back in 46' he won the MVP). Then, for parts of the 52' and 53' seasons, he served in Korea. Lest anyone think that was at the end of his career, in 57' and 58', when he was 39 and 40, he won AL batting titles. As a result of the military service, Aaron, for example, had 4600 more at bats than Williams.

 

[MontereyLion]

Former Penn State safety Mark Robinson. Oh I'm sorry, I thought we were taking about college football.

 

[fairgambit]

Former Penn State safety Mark Robinson. Oh I'm sorry, I thought we were taking about college football.

Outstanding!

 

[T J]

Nomination for "Greatest Hitter" Award, for 2015

http://t.co/KiMx2msoQ1


Wednesday, April 29, 2015 04:26AM
BALTIMORE, Md. --
A suspected rioter in Baltimore got the smackdown of his life Monday by his mom on television.

The mother saw her son on television throwing rocks at police, reports ABC Baltimore affiliate WMAR. That's when she'd had enough, dishing up a dose of discipline.

The pair was identified as Toya Graham, a single mother of six, and her 16-year-old son, according to the Associated Press.

ABC2NEWS

✔@ABC2NEWS
http://ow.ly/McGBi http://ow.ly/i/ayv42

 

[fairgambit]

Nomination for "Greatest Hitter" Award, for 2015

Wednesday, April 29, 2015 04:26AM
BALTIMORE, Md. --
A suspected rioter in Baltimore got the smackdown of his life Monday by his mom on television.

The mother saw her son on television throwing rocks at police, reports ABC Baltimore affiliate WMAR. That's when she'd had enough, dishing up a dose of discipline.

The pair was identified as Toya Graham, a single mother of six, and her 16-year-old son, according to the Associated Press.

 

[bobroars]

He was not only the greatest hitter, he was a real life John Wayne. Did you know his wingman in Korea was John Glenn? I think he was a very accomplished fly fisherman as well.....not very John Wayne-ish but he was a real sportsman.

 

[fairgambit]

He was not only the greatest hitter, he was a real life John Wayne. Did you know his wingman in Korea was John Glenn? I think he was a very accomplished fly fisherman as well.....not very John Wayne-ish but he was a real sportsman.

I knew about the fishing. I did not know about the Glenn angle. Very neat!

 

[GulfCoastLion]

is an ESPN piece on Ted Williams and his daughter. I do not know if he was the greatest. But I do recall when being asked about what he looked for when he hit the ball. His reply "I always like to get the face of the bat on the flat part of the ball between the seems". Is it even possible to "see" the ball that well? I do know that when his vision was tested when inducted into the military the examining doctor said he had the best vision of anyone he ever tested. I assume that was one reason he was made a pilot.

Any baseball guys know anything about this info?

Ted Williams is acknowledged by most every expert that has analyzed the game of baseball as the best, pure hitter there ever was. That said, I would like to list the best hitters that I have personally seen play MLB and over a sustained period. My timeframe begins in the mid-late 60's, circa 1965-1966 when I really started following and attending MLB games. I was also a big national league fan living in Pittsburgh, so I'm biased toward watching mostly NL players throughout the 70's, although went to many other stadiums over the years into the 80's across both National and American league venues.

My list includes: Roberto Clemente for obvious reasons. Pete Rose. Hank Aaron and Tony Gwynn. I'm not listing Willie Mays since he was clearly on the downside of his career when I saw him play from 1966-thru 1973 and his retirement with the Mets. He just wasn't the same Mays as he obviously was in the 50's and earlier 60's. Willie McCovey was the more feared hitter when I saw the Giants play in the later 60's-early 70's. I would also list Rod Carew and probably Wade Boggs when he was in his prime years. I won't list any of the obvious players from the steroid era who we all have seen play, including Barry Bonds, AROD, Sammy Sosa, etc..... simply cannot judge them the same with their steroid metrics. No doubt Bonds was Hall of Fame material without the use of steroids, but I can't list him similar to the reasons why he is being held out of the HOF to this day by writers, voters that get to vote on entry.

 

[Ranger Dan]

Williams is not top 10 in runs scored or RBIs. Ruth, Aaron, etc. rank higher

This is bogus... both of these stats rely on teamates being on base or driving him in. Also, as said above, he lost 5 years of his prime, not late in his career, but in his prime.

 

[OKC Nittany]

The greatest hitter of all time hit .200 in the WS? No. The real "greatest hitter that ever lived", Ruth, was still great when it mattered most.

Besides that, over his career, Ruth out homered 90 teams. That is not a typo - that is every bit as ridiculous as it looks.

God bless Williams' soul - fought for us in two wars - that should never be forgotten, but it has no bearing on a comparison to Ruth (who lost a large chunk of his prime pitching in a lesser city - and winning three titles for those stiffs, then four more in NY).

 

[fairgambit]

The greatest hitter of all time hit .200 in the WS? No. The real "greatest hitter that ever lived", Ruth, was still great when it mattered most.

Besides that, over his career, Ruth out homered 90 teams. That is not a typo - that is every bit as ridiculous as it looks.

God bless Williams' soul - fought for us in two wars - that should never be forgotten, but it has no bearing on a comparison to Ruth (who lost a large chunk of his prime pitching in a lesser city - and winning three titles for those stiffs, then four more in NY).

In fairness he played in only 1 World Series. Ruth played in 10 and in 4 of those he hit .200 or less. In his 1st five World Series', Ruth hit for a combined average of .182.

 

[dawgduice]

Well all can debate who the greatest hitter was. But, in doing some "google research" apparently Williams eyesight was tested to be 20/8 late in his career I also found that current players are getting surgery to improve vision and/or wearing contacts that also improve vision beyond "normal" 20/20. Just kind of interesting. I think Utley got the wrong set of contacts

 

[fairgambit]

Well all can debate who the greatest hitter was. But, in doing some "google research" apparently Williams eyesight was tested to be 20/8 late in his career I also found that current players are getting surgery to improve vision and/or wearing contacts that also improve vision beyond "normal" 20/20. Just kind of interesting. I think Utley got the wrong set of contacts

I never heard that before. Amazing!

 

[john4psu]

I recall reading that Williams' eyesight was so good that he would be in the back of the team bus and could read the license plate of a car far ahead in the distance. The players would then coerce the bus driver to speed up to the vehicle ahead of them and Ted had read the license plate correctly.

I've also read that when Rod Carew was hitting so well "in a groove" and with that large wad of bubble gum over a wad of tobacco that forced his eye to squint that he said he could read the baseball on its way to the plate.

 

[LionsandBear]

is an ESPN piece on Ted Williams and his daughter. I do not know if he was the greatest. But I do recall when being asked about what he looked for when he hit the ball. His reply "I always like to get the face of the bat on the flat part of the ball between the seems". Is it even possible to "see" the ball that well? I do know that when his vision was tested when inducted into the military the examining doctor said he had the best vision of anyone he ever tested. I assume that was one reason he was made a pilot.

Any baseball guys know anything about this info?

I think if you poll players, media and fans, the vast majority will agree that Ted Williams was and still is the greatest hitter ever to hold a bat.

 

[OKC Nittany]

In fairness he played in only 1 World Series. Ruth played in 10 and in 4 of those he hit .200 or less. In his 1st five World Series', Ruth hit for a combined average of .182.

He only made it to one world series is a defense? OK.

In Ruth's first 3 WS, he had 11 ABs total, as he was a pitcher. In 6 of 7 WS as a position player, he hit .300 or better. He had one Williams like WS in 1922 where he stunk up the joint. If that makes you feel better about Williams, so be it.

 

[joewp]

The greatest hitter of all time hit .200 in the WS? No. The real "greatest hitter that ever lived", Ruth, was still great when it mattered most.

Besides that, over his career, Ruth out homered 90 teams. That is not a typo - that is every bit as ridiculous as it looks.

God bless Williams' soul - fought for us in two wars - that should never be forgotten, but it has no bearing on a comparison to Ruth (who lost a large chunk of his prime pitching in a lesser city - and winning three titles for those stiffs, then four more in NY).

Still go with Williams as the greatest hitter. Ruth, in my opinion, was very close as a hitter and again in my opinion Ruth was the greatest baseball player ever. You can parse through hitting states of the greats and argue for several players but how many of those great hitters were also multiple 20 game winners as a pitcher? Also until recently, Ruth held the record for most consecutive shut out innings in the World Series. that is what separates Ruth from the other greats.

 

[Obliviax]

is an ESPN piece on Ted Williams and his daughter. I do not know if he was the greatest. But I do recall when being asked about what he looked for when he hit the ball. His reply "I always like to get the face of the bat on the flat part of the ball between the seems". Is it even possible to "see" the ball that well? I do know that when his vision was tested when inducted into the military the examining doctor said he had the best vision of anyone he ever tested. I assume that was one reason he was made a pilot.

Any baseball guys know anything about this info?

TW was great...its hard to measure given the lack of video exposure. But a guy playing today is got to be in the top ten: Miguel Cabrera won the triple crown last year. That''s almost unheard of with today's pitching and technology.

Another one is Ty Cobb. Played in such a different era but the dude was always on base on the dead ball era. He practiced techniques that today's batters should review (especially with the new defensive shifts being deployed).

 

[fairgambit]

He only made it to one world series is a defense? OK.

In Ruth's first 3 WS, he had 11 ABs total, as he was a pitcher. In 6 of 7 WS as a position player, he hit .300 or better. He had one Williams like WS in 1922 where he stunk up the joint. If that makes you feel better about Williams, so be it.

The point is not to make me feel better about Williams. The point is that 1 World Series is not a good indicator of what Williams could do. Ruth also had a much better supporting cast around him. They are both great hitters, and the debate will rage on. I just quickly checked 5 opinion pieces and 4 said Williams was the greatest. I could probably find 5 more that gave Ruth the edge. It's all just a matter of opinion and mine, or yours, is as valid as any other.

 

[LionJim]

The point is not to make me feel better about Williams. The point is that 1 World Series is not a good indicator of what Williams could do. Ruth also had a much better supporting cast around him. They are both great hitters, and the debate will rage on. I just quickly checked 5 opinion pieces and 4 said Williams was the greatest. I could probably find 5 more that gave Ruth the edge. It's all just a matter of opinion and mine, or yours, is as valid as any other.

He would have been much, much more effective if he allowed himself to beat the shift every now and then. Think about it: until late in his career, every time he came up to bat with the bases empty there was a shift. Every time he led off, there was a shift. He said himself he tried to beat the shift only a handful of times. Having a man on first with no outs, that leads to a lot of runs, and runs win games.

Bill James once did a computer simulation on Babe Ruth's 1923 season, which James considers to be his best. James gave Ruth average teammates from around the league and ran two simulations, one where Ruth had the same 1923 season he actually had, and one where Ruth was walked every time up. The "team" won many more games in the second scenario, when Ruth was walked every time up. (Think about it, he had 399 total bases in 1923; if he had walked every time up, he would have had 697 total bases.)

 

[fairgambit]

He would have been much, much more effective if he allowed himself to beat the shift every now and then. Think about it: until late in his career, every time he came up to bat with the bases empty there was a shift. Every time he led off, there was a shift. He said himself he tried to beat the shift only a handful of times. Having a man on first with no outs, that leads to a lot of runs, and runs win games.

Bill James once did a computer simulation on Babe Ruth's 1923 season, which James considers to be his best. James gave Ruth average teammates from around the league and ran two simulations, one where Ruth had the same 1923 season he actually had, and one where Ruth was walked every time up. The "team" won many more games in the second scenario, when Ruth was walked every time up. (Think about it, he had 399 total bases in 1923; if he had walked every time up, he would have had 697 total bases.)

I agree, but that was the type of player Williams was. He liked the challenge. It's reminiscent of 1941, when he could have sat the last day and batted .400, but he played and got the job done. He saw the shift and was going to bat into the teeth of it just to prove he could do it.

 

[LionJim]

I agree, but that was the type of player Williams was. He liked the challenge. It's reminiscent of 1941, when he could have sat the last day and batted .400, but he played and got the job done. He saw the shift and was going to bat into the teeth of it just to prove he could do it.

Yes, perhaps it was just that that made him great.

Apparently he was a very difficult man to get along with, a loner, had to win every argument, everything had to be done his way. He had a terrible childhood, his mother's life revolved around the Salvation Army (she never once saw him play with Boston, even though she died after he retired). At the same time, his HOF speech is a wonderful piece of work, linked:
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/27/throwback-ted-williams-hall-of-fame-speech/

 

[butchnitt]

is an ESPN piece on Ted Williams and his daughter. I do not know if he was the greatest. But I do recall when being asked about what he looked for when he hit the ball. His reply "I always like to get the face of the bat on the flat part of the ball between the seems". Is it even possible to "see" the ball that well? I do know that when his vision was tested when inducted into the military the examining doctor said he had the best vision of anyone he ever tested. I assume that was one reason he was made a pilot.

Any baseball guys know anything about this info?

 

[NYNY]

Williams, "The Splendid Splinter".

 

[butchnitt]

Not so fast my friend. Joe DiMaggio had a 56 game hitting streak. Lifetime BA of .325. In seven years of his career Joe had more HR's than strike-outs compared to three by Williams. His career HR/SO ratio was 361/369. I was fortunate to have seen both play. Saw Joe hit a HR in Shibe Park on 9/5/49. Saw Ted play at Yankee Stadium many times during the era when the press dubbed him the "Splendid Spitter". Still a slight edge to Williams but Joe was probably a better fielder. Williams played LF and had the luxury of having center fielders like Dom DiMaggio and Jimmy Piersall who could cover lots of ground. Joe , of course, played CF.

 

[LionFan87b]

This has nothing to do with whether he was the greatest or not, but I'm pretty sure the notion of Williams knowing where he hit the ball (between the seams, on the seams, etc.) is BS and that Williams himself admitted this.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Mays was the best all around player, but Williams was the best hitter. Not even close.

Ted Williams had a good head for hitting. Still does.
Rim shot. LOL...

 

[jj410]

is an ESPN piece on Ted Williams and his daughter. I do not know if he was the greatest. But I do recall when being asked about what he looked for when he hit the ball. His reply "I always like to get the face of the bat on the flat part of the ball between the seems". Is it even possible to "see" the ball that well? I do know that when his vision was tested when inducted into the military the examining doctor said he had the best vision of anyone he ever tested. I assume that was one reason he was made a pilot.

Any baseball guys know anything about this info?

What BS. It is absolutely not humanly possible to see the ball that well. Physicists have shown the best hitters can't see the ball less than FIVE FEET from the bat but good hitters are just better at predicting the flight of the ball. (See the book "Keep Your Eye on the Ball" by Watts and Bayhill.)
Williams managed to promote himself as the greatest hitter ever. Some suckers buy it. When judged by absolute stats and even more so against his contemporaries, there is little doubt Babe Ruth was. He hit 54 HRs to lead the AL in 1920; the NL leader had 15. In 1921, it was 59 HRs for Ruth, the NL leader had 23. His hitting completely revolutionized the game.
Ruth had an OPS of 1.164 in 22 years, Williams was 1.116 in 19 years.
Ruth had 714 HRs, Williams 521. Even with the 4 "missing" seasons, Williams would have had to hit 48 a year to reach Ruth, but he never hit more than 43 in one season.
What's more Ruth played in 10 WS (hit .326, 15HR) and was MVP FOUR STRAIGHT YEARS. Williams played in one WS (hit .200, 0 HR) and was MVP twice.
And please spare us that crap about if he hadn't missed those years, blahblah. Many many players missed years for WWII. And we never whine about injuries shortening a career. (For example, nobody ever says if Koufax would not have been injured, "he would have been the greatest pitcher ever".)
For that matter, BABE RUTH WAS A PITCHER HIS FIRST FIVE SEASONS (and a great one at that). So why don't we ever hear "If Ruth hadn't wasted five seasons as a pitcher, he would have hit 900 HRs instead of a mere 714"?)

 

[bobroars]

Not so fast my friend. Joe DiMaggio had a 56 game hitting streak. Lifetime BA of .325. In seven years of his career Joe had more HR's than strike-outs compared to three by Williams. His career HR/SO ratio was 361/369. I was fortunate to have seen both play. Saw Joe hit a HR in Shibe Park on 9/5/49. Saw Ted play at Yankee Stadium many times during the era when the press dubbed him the "Splendid Spitter". Still a slight edge to Williams but Joe was probably a better fielder. Williams played LF and had the luxury of having center fielders like Dom DiMaggio and Jimmy Piersall who could cover lots of ground. Joe , of course, played CF.

DiMaggio struck out 13 times in 1941,,,,,,A-Rod has already struck out 24 times this season

 

[jj410]

I'm not an "expert", but in my opinion there is absolutely zero debate about who the greatest hitter was. It's Ted Williams and not even close. He may fall behind others when you add in defense and winning, but is still in the conversation for best position player ever. Others in the conversation include: Ruth, Cobb, Gherig, Mantle, Mays, Rose, Dimaggio... I'm sure that I'm forgetting some worthy players. I did not forget Bonds, but left him out (and other steroid era players) because I don't think it's fair to compare them.

You are obviously no expert, since you obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Putting Rose and maybe DiMaggio in that company is further proof.
Bill James, for example, ranks the top 10 hitters: Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Hornsby, Gehrig, Mantle, Cobb, Musial, Mays and Foxx. Ranking Rose among hitters like that, and others like Wagner and Speaker, is ridiculous.

 

[jj410]

DiMaggio struck out 13 times in 1941,,,,,,A-Rod has already struck out 24 times this season

DiMaggio was a great all-around player, but not among the very best (top 10) hitters.
To say DiMag was MAYBE a better fielder than Williams is just plain goofy, there simply is no doubt about it. Williams was not known as a team player, could not care less about fielding and sometimes took practice swings while playing the outfield.

 

[john4psu]

Myths and facts about Ted Williams' vision:

http://richmondoptometry.blogspot.com/2011/01/myths-and-facts-about-ted-williams.html

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/sbbw0725.htm

 

[N&B4PSU]

I am an expert and....OK, I'm really not an expert, but I absolutely agree. Williams was the greatest hitter. Many people put Ruth second and Williams, in listing the best other than himself, named Ruth #1. I agree there too. This vignette will tell you all you need to know about how great Williams was. He could have sat out the final game of the 41' season and finish with a .400 average, but he chose to play a doubleheader and went 4/5 and then 2/3 to finish at .406. By the way, in 41', unlike today, a sacrifice fly was considered a time at bat, so Williams, under present rules, would have hit for an even higher average.

Damn... i learned something new! thought i knew most of what there was to know but didn't know about the sacrifice as an AB. thanx.

 

[fairgambit]

Damn... i learned something new! thought i knew most of what there was to know but didn't know about the sacrifice as an AB. thanx.

I didn't know it either until I read some articles about Williams for this thread,

 

[Option Bob]

[QUOTEAlso until recently, Ruth held the record for most consecutive shut out innings in the World Series. that is what separates Ruth from the other greats.[/QUOTE]

" recently"? Didn't Whitey Ford break Ruth's shutout innings record in the 1960 WS vs Pirates (2 shutouts) and then games 1 and 4 vs Reds in 1961 and then a few innings in 1962 vs Giants? I wouldnt refer to 53 years ago as "recent" ... LOL.

I'm just kidding you. I remember those WS games, sneaking a listen on the radio at school and all.

But you are 100% right that Ruth deserves special acclaim for his tremendous skills as a pitcher.