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Freestyle/Greco vs. Folkstyle in the off-season

CropDuster507

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Jul 13, 2015
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Although this is a PSU forum, from time to time I use threads to ask about PA wrestling culture, in general. I don't get out of MN much, minus tournaments.

What's the general consensus in PA regarding off-season wrestling? Most clubs in MN switch to FS/GR after USA Folk Natls, and continue through Fargo. Sure, you might have a couple that focus on freestyle, but the majority of the hammers are wrestling Olympic Styles, currently. We're usually pretty accomplished in the USA Schoolboy/Cadet/Junior Duals Series, which is a props to our coaching staffs. Our Fargo placements are usually high, team-wise. Now, this time in June turns into Folkstyle camp time. Many of my club guys are going with their teams to team camps in the next few weeks, but I make sure they're still drilling Free to prepare for Fargo.

Using this weekend as an example... notice Young Guns has a team down in Disney. I don't think MN has ever taken a team, there. But I noticed a few studs in that lineup that could've been at Cadet Duals. Next week is Juniors in Tulsa, and I don't think money grows on trees. How many can really pull double duty?

How do kids choose which Duals to do? What's the preference in PA? Is it a hard sell to compete at Duals/Fargo over folkstyle camps?

Thanks
 
Sorry CD, not an answer to your question...only a comment about "I don't get out of MN much". Lucky for you, the 2019 Big Ten Wrestling Championships, if the current rotation holds, will be held at the University of Minnesota. Then, the next year, 2020, the National Championship is in Minneapolis at U.S. Bank Stadium. So, you can stay in-state, and see some pretty cool tournaments in the next 3 years :).
 
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my opinion is that PA focuses on folk because our folk is so tough year in and year out. PA has so many colleges with wrestling programs, at all the college levels that success at states will get you in somewhere. Heck I know of guys that are just AA SQ in PA getting nice aid packages at D3 schools.

FS appears to be only for the elite folk guys. guys who have mastered HS folk and are looking to get more exposure for themselves and grow their abilities. But I will say since the renewed olympic movement more FS is happening and at younger ages.

I think your seeing more dual tourneys because it means more exposure matches for mid level and lower level kids (this is relative to competition) plus the big driver is $ overall for the tourneys, the tourism, tickets, etc. is better with duals. Duals are folk as of now so the focus remains there.

GR has a long way to go in PA, always has.
 
Is it an issue with PA/USA?
Do PA kids not get bored with folkstyle at some point? When I was in school, we'd all look forward to changing styles and wrestling looser at opens, etc. In our world, after the HS State Folk tournament, we were done with choosing top, bottom, neutral, or defer. Rarely, someone would enter the MN/USA or USA Natl events.

In MN, we have a few college programs, plus NDSU, SDSU, all the Iowa schools, all the WI schools. We aren't where I'd like us to be, in outstate MN, but we're growing FS/GR numbers. Lots of those coaches (MN ones) are on MN/USA coaching staffs, though, too. Does that not happen in PA?

I ask because our FS/GR season is continually cut short. If we (USA) want to succeed in Olympic Styles, kids need more exposure to them, earlier on and often.
 
And for sure I know my kid looks forward to folk after freestyle and freestyle after a season of folk. He says it's like he is playing two sports almost.
 
Is it an issue with PA/USA?
Do PA kids not get bored with folkstyle at some point? When I was in school, we'd all look forward to changing styles and wrestling looser at opens, etc. In our world, after the HS State Folk tournament, we were done with choosing top, bottom, neutral, or defer. Rarely, someone would enter the MN/USA or USA Natl events.

In MN, we have a few college programs, plus NDSU, SDSU, all the Iowa schools, all the WI schools. We aren't where I'd like us to be, in outstate MN, but we're growing FS/GR numbers. Lots of those coaches (MN ones) are on MN/USA coaching staffs, though, too. Does that not happen in PA?

I ask because our FS/GR season is continually cut short. If we (USA) want to succeed in Olympic Styles, kids need more exposure to them, earlier on and often.

I think some of the issue may be that there is not the sense of urgency for a PA kid to attend Fargo or major freestyle events to get noticed as kids from other states. So if an elite kid just wants to wrestle folkstyle, so be it. I think this cuts into the depth of our top tier, which is the major advantage we have over other states.

Secondly, may be the leadership of PAWF. I haven't had dealings with them for almost five years, so maybe things have changed for the better. In the past there has been some sentiment that the family that controlled the organization ran it as a income producing business for them - and there were a lot of questions about why PA had the highest costs to participate of any state. There were also some questionable decisions regarding the coaches of the national teams - especially when you consider the available coaching talent in the state. Although I'm not sure that coaching talent would make itself available under that administration. Again, it may be different now.
 
I am from Washington state. When we finish high school state pretty much everyone jumps into free/Greco season. I would say most kids get twice as many Olympic style matches compared to folkstyle in a year. Our schoolboys, cadets, and usually Junior dual teams are top 8 in both styles every year at the duals. We are proud of there accomplishments but to me it doesn't transfer into college for our boys. I've felt that emphasizing Olympic wrestling has really hurt the boys trying to continue wrestling in college.
 
A few other reasons, and some of these are not unique to PA, but here goes:

The PA folk season runs longer than some other states -- and runs directly into spring sports. Quite a few guys will play baseball or run track for a 2-month break from wrestling.

A number of offseason events are relatively close to PA. Flonats in PA. NHSCA in Virginia Beach. Super 32 in Greensboro NC. Etc.

Plus Fargo is a long honking drive from PA -- no matter what part of the state you're from, Fargo is 16+ hrs away and Disney is closer than Fargo. (Flights are an even bigger advantage for Orlando -- relatively inexpensive nonstops from PHL, PIttsburgh, NYC, and Baltimore.) It's a no-brainer for families who use that event as their summer vacation: just can't imagine Junior saying "this year let's stay extra nights in Fargo instead of the theme parks and beaches."
 
Fargo is a haul from PA but I know kids that were at Disney that are heading for Fargo. Also know kids who were at NHSCA Battle at the Beach, Freestyle Duals and now coming home from Disney. I'd be curious to know which of these events have more exposure value for a potential division 1 prospect. Very hard to decide where to go with so much going on. Definitely hard not to go back and forth between folkstyle and freestyle some during the summer.
 
I am from Washington state. When we finish high school state pretty much everyone jumps into free/Greco season. I would say most kids get twice as many Olympic style matches compared to folkstyle in a year. Our schoolboys, cadets, and usually Junior dual teams are top 8 in both styles every year at the duals. We are proud of there accomplishments but to me it doesn't transfer into college for our boys. I've felt that emphasizing Olympic wrestling has really hurt the boys trying to continue wrestling in college.
You really think this? Does a takedown not translate from all three styles? I have never heard someone take this stance, so I'm genuinely interested to hear more.
 
Fargo is my favorite week of the year. It helps that I live close-ish.

I have never seen more college coaches in one building than the Fargo dome on those days. Got the opportunity to chop it up with a few of them during Cadet Finals last year. Cool experience.
 
Freestyle absolutely translates into folkstyle! Not on the mat, of course, but freestyle helps you significantly on your feet. You can get away with being sloppy in folkstyle on takedown attempts but you pay a big price when you are sloppy in freestyle. You learn better positioning and technique on your feet when training freestyle and this can significantly help you finish more TDs thereafter.
 
You really think this? Does a takedown not translate from all three styles? I have never heard someone take this stance, so I'm genuinely interested to hear more.
You really think this? Does a takedown not translate from all three styles? I have never heard someone take this stance, so I'm genuinely interested to hear more.
Just think the top guys from our area really struggle with mat wrestling when they get to college. They really seem to struggle getting off bottom against top level competition.
 
Tough to find high school competition that keeps the top kids down. When they get to college it's a much different story. Those kids that were 1 in a 100 are now every kid you are going to wrestle. Maybe I'm wrong but sure seems to me that is a big part of making the transition. Getting away from college level kids as opposed to high school kids. For almost everyone. Mark Hall has wrestled a ton of freestyle. No problems there.
 
Why would you pay $1300+ to go to Fargo when you can go to Disney & NHSCA Duals for that price? Families would much rather go to Disney and VA Beach than Fargo, ND.
Plus the real studs will go to UWW Cadets & Juniors and forget about Fargo.

Illinois and Iowa always have great showings at Fargo and the Cadet/Junior Duals but PA & Ohio far outdo us at the D1 level...why? Because they have elite mat wrestling and we do not.

Having been to Fargo and Disney, I had a far better experience at Disney. It was more fun, got in 18 matches (13 official & 5 exhibition), and got to go to Blizzard Beach & Animal Kingdom as compared to being stuck in the Fargodome/having nothing to do.
 
I just got back from a workout with the team that I coach in the season. One of my guys mentioned that they train with a club/wrestling school that is into folkstyle, right now. And I gotta talk my shit, real quick.

Why, as Americans, do we only care about Olympic wrestling every 4 years? We almost got decked from the Olympic program, and everybody wanted to get their Facebook post out about "#SaveWrestling". Where the heck are they, now? How many of them encourage kids to compete in the international styles in the off-season? You can't just put the picket sign out when our backs are against the wall. You can't claim one thing is important, and then dismiss it the next year. It just drives me nuts that we complain about wrestling not getting exposure, but we convince kids to wrestle a style that no other country wrestles 9 months out of the year. The Olympics is the HIGHEST level, the pinnacle of wrestling as a sport. And while this board is pretty into senior level wrestling, the average fan doesn't care. They care about the next year's college season.

I love wrestling, regardless of style, but in order to raise our level as a country, I'm convinced that we as fans, spectators, coaches, and athletes need to make a more serious commitment to the Olympic dream. That's going to build life-long, year-round fans.

I would assume that most train folkstyle or push guys to folkstyle in the off-season based on the fact that college wrestling is folkstyle. I hate to break it to the world, but the odds of your athlete getting much more than .3 of a college scholarship in the sport of wrestling is slim. And guess what... The guys that are getting that much or more, are often guys that wrestle Freestyle and Greco-Roman in the off-season. The Fargo-to-NCAA's ratio is incredible.

If we, as wrestling fans, want to grow our sport, we need to support and advocate for the Olympic Styles and the Olympic dream. We need to expose and push kids to Freestyle/Greco. We need to spectate, watch, discuss senior level wrestling. It's the closest thing we have to "professional wrestling".

Now, I'm off my soap-box.
 
I can only speak for myself, but for me the answer is simple, to me, as a wrestling fan, Freestyle is a far inferior product to Folkstyle.
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Freestyle has 5pt throws, more brutality available, less down-time with restarts/cautions, a lower tech fall to keep things more interesting (in reference to enticing scoring and closing a match out), and forces wrestlers to stay in the boundaries for shorter match times. In addition, they have less stalling in the par terre position (college wrestling worst aspect). I'll concede that scoring has subjective qualities to it, but there's so much more scoring, and it isn't as hard to understand once you watch a bit of it.

Is it inferior to the average fan because of the action or because the importance level that we put on it?

I won't even argue about Greco because it's a fine wine in a beer country, but I can't understand how fans would rather watch folkstyle over freestyle, in terms of action on the mat. I'd love an explanation.
 
I just got back from a workout with the team that I coach in the season. One of my guys mentioned that they train with a club/wrestling school that is into folkstyle, right now. And I gotta talk my shit, real quick.

Why, as Americans, do we only care about Olympic wrestling every 4 years? We almost got decked from the Olympic program, and everybody wanted to get their Facebook post out about "#SaveWrestling". Where the heck are they, now? How many of them encourage kids to compete in the international styles in the off-season? You can't just put the picket sign out when our backs are against the wall. You can't claim one thing is important, and then dismiss it the next year. It just drives me nuts that we complain about wrestling not getting exposure, but we convince kids to wrestle a style that no other country wrestles 9 months out of the year. The Olympics is the HIGHEST level, the pinnacle of wrestling as a sport. And while this board is pretty into senior level wrestling, the average fan doesn't care. They care about the next year's college season.

I love wrestling, regardless of style, but in order to raise our level as a country, I'm convinced that we as fans, spectators, coaches, and athletes need to make a more serious commitment to the Olympic dream. That's going to build life-long, year-round fans.

I would assume that most train folkstyle or push guys to folkstyle in the off-season based on the fact that college wrestling is folkstyle. I hate to break it to the world, but the odds of your athlete getting much more than .3 of a college scholarship in the sport of wrestling is slim. And guess what... The guys that are getting that much or more, are often guys that wrestle Freestyle and Greco-Roman in the off-season. The Fargo-to-NCAA's ratio is incredible.

If we, as wrestling fans, want to grow our sport, we need to support and advocate for the Olympic Styles and the Olympic dream. We need to expose and push kids to Freestyle/Greco. We need to spectate, watch, discuss senior level wrestling. It's the closest thing we have to "professional wrestling".

Now, I'm off my soap-box.
I like aspects of both styles and probably end up watching as much FS as Folk, but I can't get behind efforts to back FS as the dominant style because Freestyle is run by transparently corrupt stewards, which fact is easily witnessed in the FS matches themselves. So no thanks hitching wrestling to that wagon because it'll naturally come at the expense of Folk. I prefer to come away from watching matches feeling as if the person I thought won actually won and yeah, odd outcomes happen in both styles, but it's far more prevalent in FS due not only to corruption but to the increased discretion FS refs have at their disposal, as well as inequitable rules.
 
No bad calls ever happen in folkstyle? Stalling isn't subjective?

Riding time far supercedes Correct Throw in the stupid rules category, in my world, but to each their own.
 
...folk style vs freestyle is a never- ending question...
...as I have often stated, for me it's a no-brainer...
...I have followed wrestling for more than 65 years and nothing has happened to convince me that free style is as interesting or as exciting to watch as folk style...
... free style is still an overwhelmingly tie-up, push-pull, flatten out when you get taken down, boring sport compared to folk style...
...the powers that be continue to tweak the rules in freestyle but they just have made their sport harder to follow - just consider: what is a scoring TD?... what is offensive vs defensive posturing?...how is a tie resolved?... do the last points scored always win? ...does it depend on the type of last point scored?...oh, lest we forget - the ball grab and the clinch, - etc., etc...
...folk style is much more subjective in its scoring vs the whim of the free style ref to influence the outcome of matches...
... the final proof is in the fan reaction to folk style vs freestyle as reflected in their attendance... not even close...
...think about it: if you saw the exciting finals of this year's NCAAs and also the Olympic finals last year...there is no doubt which event was more spectacular- in both the wrestling and the fan reaction...
...but thas jes my opinion...and you are certainly entitled to yours...
 
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From CD507...
"Is it inferior to the average fan because of the action or because the importance level that we put on it?"

What the referees do, and the folks that pay them, is unconscionable. That aside, I've arrived at a place, as a fan, where I enjoy watching the wrestling in both styles. I've made it a point to understand freestyle scoring, which still can be bizarre at times, but it's paid dividends from where I was say, 10 years ago.
 
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No bad calls ever happen in folkstyle? Stalling isn't subjective?

Riding time far supercedes Correct Throw in the stupid rules category, in my world, but to each their own.
Riding time does not incentivize action, but it's very easily understood.

Nobody knows WTF a correct throw is, and it's very easily mocked for common sense reasons.

If the customer can't understand your product, you don't have a product.
 
Riding time does not incentivize action, but it's very easily understood.

Nobody knows WTF a correct throw is, and it's very easily mocked for common sense reasons.

If the customer can't understand your product, you don't have a product.
Granted, I grew up wrestling international styles as well as folkstyle, but what part of "moving your opponent's body from one side of your body to another in a scoring maneuver without exposure" is hard to understand?

Or are we still upset that it was the reason Zain lost? Because I was equally as pissed, but I understand the rule. I think it's unnecessary in freestyle, but I don't get how it's hard to understand.

Freestyle isn't about control, like folkstyle. It's about putting your opponent in danger (exposing) to a fall. It's a mindset change, really.

Good dialogue, here, no matter what the opinions.
 
No bad calls ever happen in folkstyle? Stalling isn't subjective?

Riding time far supercedes Correct Throw in the stupid rules category, in my world, but to each their own.

Riding time does not incentivize action, but it's very easily understood.

Nobody knows WTF a correct throw is, and it's very easily mocked for common sense reasons.

If the customer can't understand your product, you don't have a product.
Perspective, my friends. The rest of the world doesn't know what riding time is...and from what I've read, wrestling is higher up the sports food-chain in many countries than what it is here in the U.S. While they (some of the rest of the world) know how to cheat better than us, I suspect their fan bases know freestyle rules better than us too. And for those fan bases, the "product" is much appreciated.
 
Crop, I am a fan of freestyle but I disagree it is more watchable than folkstyle here in the US. A couple of reasons:

1) Mat wrestling. Acknowledged this is a US bias, but I'm a fan of it. Yes, top or bottom stalling can be a drag, but it's basically no more than freestyle with the amount of times you have the 10 second wait to get back to the feet in a six minute match. At least in folk you have both guys working to score (unless they are stalling), not just one. At least in the US. Internationally, it's probably different as par terre is much more advanced. This is probably also somewhat of a PA thing, as although it's not always the case, mat wrestling is much better and valued more here. A lot of other states - well most guys don't work as much on the mat as they do on their feet. I think you are from Minnesota, correct? Haven't watched much MN wrestling besides in the international styles so not sure how it compares.

2) You mention that bad calls are a part of the sport, but in the US - well at least in PA - we have our bad refs and we have our mistakes even with good refs, but the skill and knowledge of the refs are far superior in folk than they are in free. Again, at least in PA.

3) The above two points are basically US centric and specifically, for me, PA centric, but when observing international competitions it seems as if corruption almost ALWAYS plays a part. I get that this is part cultural difference, but the bottom line is that in the US this rarely exists. So to watch the best compete in free, you have to deal with that BS. It's a turn-off.

If freestyle was our national style of wrestling, you might have a point. But it isn't so basically what I get to watch here is VERY FEW wrestlers that are very good in it compete in contests that are judged by VERY FEW refs that are good at it. And then when I get to watch the best wrestlers in the world go at it, there's always this nagging feeling that the outcome COULD be fixed (or at least influenced) when certain countries are involved. Countries that happen to be very good at putting out the top wrestlers in the world. Potentially, you could be right, but we will never know that.
 
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Now, speaking in generalities, mat wrestling is a dying art. I know that that's sacrilegious in these parts, but the times of guys hitting granby rolls and whatnot is slowing down. For the vast majority, guys are hitting standups and getting away, or it's a continuous battle of standup, mat return, until one guy gives up. All the while, little scoring. Top wrestling in college is getting better, in my opinion, due to the new rules on out of bounds and the 4pt nearfall. I'm not sure if it's due to inflation of scoring or if it's enticing more turns on top, but the eyeball test says it's more fun to watch. And they're "working" on limiting the Tony Nelson and Mike Evans-esque rides.

In MN, we have pretty good officials in the international styles. I have my gripes with them at times, but they're very knowledgeable and most will explain scoring to you. In all honesty, I'd take much of our freestyle refs in freestyle over our folkstyle refs. Very few in MN do both. Reason being: Freestyle refs have a more vested interest, in my opinion. See, most wrestlers grow up wrestling folkstyle, and any Tom, Dick, or Harry that wrested in HS can become a ref. Many of these refs tend to grow egos, at least in my area of the state (though, we have phenomenal ones, too). Refs who ref freestyle do it because they love it and love the sport. Your average HS Joe isn't going to ref freestyle. Not only that, but 3-man mechanics is great. More often, you'll see a conference or at least someone gives another option for the scoring. If you have a problem with it, you can approach the table or throw the brick. Folkstyle refs, in our parts, get offended if you so much as question their call, and the 2nd ref (if there is one) is little more than a stooge.
 
Granted, I grew up wrestling international styles as well as folkstyle, but what part of "moving your opponent's body from one side of your body to another in a scoring maneuver without exposure" is hard to understand?
Because under that definition, what is NOT worth 2 pts?

And that's not even considering the underlying question: why should someone score points for failing to score points? That absurdity is an absolute obstacle.

And to be clear: I get the fundamental difference in the styles, and my objection to correct throw long preceded Zain-Oliver.
 
No bad calls ever happen in folkstyle? Stalling isn't subjective?

Riding time far supercedes Correct Throw in the stupid rules category, in my world, but to each their own.
I have to disagree. A riding time point is earned through an accomplishment. You may disagree with the concept of rewarding a man for dominating the action on the mat, but there is a very objective measuring unit.
Correct throw is entirely subjective. Don't accomplish anything, but hey here are a couple points for trying even though your ass got stomped through the mat.

The international version (the highest level) is corrupt through and through. The USA version, while entertaining at the highest level lacks a certain quality necessary for success. Minimally competent officiating.
 
Freestyle is less complex, you are on your feet playing a takedown game and little to no mat wrestling on the top or bottom. If you can't get off the bottom not a problem, if you can't ride and control your opponent, not a problem, it's just how good you are on your feet, over simplifying, but for the most part true. Now let's talk about the goal of all wrestling, to pin your opponent. With freestyle rules, it's extremely difficult to achieve, take someone down and your given all of 15 seconds to turn for the pin. With these rules, most wrestlers don't even attempt it, it's not worth it. In folk, let's use Zain's matches as an example, against a tough opponent, if Zain ended up pinning the guy, it usually never happened within 15 seconds, once on top. It usually took a minute to work for the turn and then get the pin. That action we all love to watch would almost never happen in freestyle.
 
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Granted, I grew up wrestling international styles as well as folkstyle, but what part of "moving your opponent's body from one side of your body to another in a scoring maneuver without exposure" is hard to understand?

Or are we still upset that it was the reason Zain lost? Because I was equally as pissed, but I understand the rule. I think it's unnecessary in freestyle, but I don't get how it's hard to understand.

Freestyle isn't about control, like folkstyle. It's about putting your opponent in danger (exposing) to a fall. It's a mindset change, really.

Good dialogue, here, no matter what the opinions.

I watch freestyle when I can but I have a problem with a LOT of the rules and the part of your post I bolded is IMHO one of the worst. In freestyle you get points for exposure WITHOUT putting your opponent in any danger of a fall.
 
Freestyle is less complex, you are on your feet playing a takedown game and little to no mat wrestling on the top or bottom. If you can't get off the bottom not a problem, if you can't ride and control your opponent, not a problem, it's just how good you are on your feet, over simplifying, but for the most part true. Now let's talk about the goal of all wrestling, to pin your opponent. With freestyle rules, it's extremely difficult to achieve, take someone down and your given all of 15 seconds to turn for the pin. With these rules, most wrestlers don't even attempt it, it's not worth it. In folk, let's use Zain's matches as an example, against a tough opponent, if Zain ended up pinning the guy, it usually never happened within 15 seconds, once on top. It usually took a minute to work for the turn and then get the pin. That action we all love to watch would almost never happen in freestyle.


That pretty much sums it up for me. As NL84 said, a bit over simplifying, but freestyle, while it can be exciting at times, is to me, much more one dimensional. Folk forces people to master many areas and skills.

Feel free to ridicule, but the comparison that comes to my mind is playing golf vs chip n putt. Golf is very diverse in that half your shots (at least) are around or on the green. You can be great with the driver, long irons, even mid irons, draw, fade, cut into the wind, know how to get backspin, etc...... and still struggle. :D If you can’t pitch, putt, chip, get out of sand, etc, you are in trouble. The reverse is true. You can be great around the greens, but lousy everywhere else. Totally different skillsets. There are so many different things to learn in golf and do well all at the same time that it is….frustrating. Frustrating and it separates good from great.

I see wrestling folkstyle as similar. You can use your strengths to your advantage, try to minimize your weaknesses, but you can’t hide if you are going against a complete wrestler (Zain, Nolf, etc). The same guys may or may not not be as good against the same people in free, depending on their strongest areas.
 
Using golf, you just nailed the perfect comparison, in my opinion. Freestyle is long drive competition and Folkstyle is playing a full round of golf. Both are entertaining to watch, but I will prefer watching a round of golf any day of the week.
 
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If the customer can't understand your product, you don't have a product.
Indeed, and this goes to my point about UWW being bad stewards for freestyle (and thus international wrestling). The rules change so frequently that even presuming they were being implemented correctly (and we know they're not), even fans with above-average familiarity are left confused. And because rule changes are being introduced before the previous rule change had a chance to gel, and seemingly without forethought, the refs are accordingly internalizing the rules' flaws and implementing them arbitrarily, fearful of having, say, a caution +2 or correct throw decide a close match in an inequitable way. (See, e.g., ref's reluctance to hit Cox in third match with DT) If the refs can't establish consistency, fans aren't going to be able to recognize when a particular move = x points. This situation existed prior to the new rules being implemented but the new rules really made a bad thing far worse.

Freestyle is less complex
But the scoring is far more complex.
 
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I don't see the rules changing a ton more in the near future. Even this year, they added maybe one rule.

I just don't understand what people don't get about exposure. If the back breaks 90 degrees, the guy gets two points. If it starts from the feet, it's worth 4 (2 for the takedown, 2 for exposure). It's really not that complicated.
 
I don't see the rules changing a ton more in the near future. Even this year, they added maybe one rule.

I just don't understand what people don't get about exposure. If the back breaks 90 degrees, the guy gets two points. If it starts from the feet, it's worth 4 (2 for the takedown, 2 for exposure). It's really not that complicated.
It's not complicated. It's too lenient. This wrestler could lean back another 40 deg and still be in zero danger of being pinned.

image.JPG


If the goal is pinning your opponent, this is a fail. If the goal is rhythmic gymnastics using a human body instead of a ribbon, congrats to UWW.

This from somebody who watches freestyle, enjoys some facets of it, and wants to enjoy it fully.
 
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As a newish freestyle observer, what is the deal with leg laces and gut wrenches? I understand the back exposure is key but it seems to be odd that a wrestler can get 10 points in 15 seconds based on just turning someone over and over again. It just seems odd to me that a wrestler can score so much without any control on their lace or gut.

If freestyle wants to maintain their let up rule, I don't see the harm in requiring control of the opponent for a count to get back exposure. Granted, maybe I feel this way because it would help us, I just don't see how laces and guts have much utility in determining who a better wrestler is.
 
Another example would be in the process of getting a takedown, sometimes through pure luck, you are able to secure a trapped arm. This almost always results in a tech fall. Does this mean the wrestler that obtained the tech is by far the superior wrestler?
 
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