Free or Folk?

El-Jefe

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I guess it depends on how much one values keeping oneself in bounds as a wrestling skill. It’s not high on the list IMO. Folk by miles.
OKST and Lehigh don't value it at all.

Keeping matches in the center = fewer stoppages = more continuous action = more scoring.

But even if one doesn't like the pushout: how does Wrestler A score if he has no responsibility for keeping himself in bounds? All he can do is prevent Wrestller B from scoring.
 
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El-Jefe

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Just call stalling appropriately. No need to reward pushing a guy OOB.
How many more decades do we wait for refs to call stalling correctly?

NCAA added an automatic boundary stalling rule, precisely because they couldn't make the refs call stalling. That rule is an unmitigated disaster -- nobody knows which way calls will go, and it hasn't reduced edge stoppages.
 

El-Jefe

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BTW, IId challenge everyone who thinks freestyle pushout is a reward, to try to think of it differently:

If you don't stay in, you're not wrestling. Therefore it's a stalling point.
 

crablegs1

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How many more decades do we wait for refs to call stalling correctly?

NCAA added an automatic boundary stalling rule, precisely because they couldn't make the refs call stalling. That rule is an unmitigated disaster -- nobody knows which way calls will go, and it hasn't reduced edge stoppages.
It really is amazing. As inconsistent and terrible as stalling is in folk, the rules committee somehow made it even worse. Truly impressive.
 

tullfan68

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How many more decades do we wait for refs to call stalling correctly?

NCAA added an automatic boundary stalling rule, precisely because they couldn't make the refs call stalling. That rule is an unmitigated disaster -- nobody knows which way calls will go, and it hasn't reduced edge stoppages.
SO TRUE PSU guys work their asses off to score the other guy stalls the whole match a few yrs ago Zain was on top working this guy over in the 3rd period ref call stalling on Zain wtf!the other kid looked like a freestyler arm spread not doing a damn thing hoping not to get turned!
 

jack66

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The 5 count for riding on the legs is pretty evenly enforced. How about a 5 count anytime a wrestler has at least one foot out of bounds.

The way Hadley wrestles Brooks he'd either put himself at risk trying to work back in or get stalled out by the 2nd period.
 

nerfstate

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The 5 count for riding on the legs is pretty evenly enforced. How about a 5 count anytime a wrestler has at least one foot out of bounds.

The way Hadley wrestles Brooks he'd either put himself at risk trying to work back in or get stalled out by the 2nd period.
I have to say, as much as I hate those 1 - 1 on 2 passivity point matches (I equally hate 1-1 UTB rideout victories, FWIW). I feel like the shot clock system has a few things right--make it required of the refs to make a call in 0-0 matches. Then, give the offending wrestler a chance to force some action. Those things I think make for more aggresive wrestling overall in Free, though there are always exceptions.
 
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El-Jefe

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The 5 count for riding on the legs is pretty evenly enforced. How about a 5 count anytime a wrestler has at least one foot out of bounds.

The way Hadley wrestles Brooks he'd either put himself at risk trying to work back in or get stalled out by the 2nd period.
Why not reduce the refs' workload?

Besides, as we've seen with the 5-counts -- that's a license to stall for 4.
 
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mcpat

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It’s been posted by others, but I hate the leg lace. A guy sitting on his butt gets turned around 4 times with his back nowhere near the mat and the match is over.

But I like the OOB rules in free more.
 

El-Jefe

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What I like about folk:
- familiarity
- PSU dominance
- emphasis on pins and near fall – i.e., turns that put bottom in at least some danger of being pinned
- wide variety of scoring moves/holds
- bottom rewarded for escaping
- college 2-min SV periods
- physical toughness
- Heil Rule
- full consolations

What I dislike about folk:
- blatant top stalling and rides with no attempts at turns
- Delgado Dive and lengthy scoreless scrambles
- edge wrestling + over-complicated boundary rules
- too many stoppages, and too much time before resuming action
- 5-counts that legalize 4 sec of stalling
- refs calling “Action” instead of stalling
- HS boundary rule + small mats
- lunger timeouts and lunger bricks
- no penalty for failed challenges
- pins saved by the bell
- must release hold to score NF points
- not trying to win tie matches in regulation
- OT stall-out periods
- injury rate
- ducking
- widespread MFFs in consis
- institutional unwillingness to test new rules at offseason events and exhibitions

What I like about free:
- NLWC dominance
- nearly constant action
- fewer and shorter stoppages
- emphasis on big moves from feet
- no OT, every match must be won in regulation

What I dislike about free:
- too few weights at the Olympics
- turns with no possibility of pins scored same as turns with actual predicament
- bottom stalling encouraged
- matches ending on multiple consecutive exposures with no risk of pins
- inability to seed major international tournaments
- repechage
- erratic shot clock calls
- cutting bottom and peeling hands for escapes are technically illegal
- inconsistent domestic refs
- willfully blind/crooked international refs
- no national penalty for many years of proven organized doping
- timing of major events, especially qualifiers too close to HS/College season
 

86PSUPaul

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Aug 17, 2017
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What I like about folk:
- familiarity
- PSU dominance
- emphasis on pins and near fall – i.e., turns that put bottom in at least some danger of being pinned
- wide variety of scoring moves/holds
- bottom rewarded for escaping
- college 2-min SV periods
- physical toughness
- Heil Rule
- full consolations

What I dislike about folk:
- blatant top stalling and rides with no attempts at turns
- Delgado Dive and lengthy scoreless scrambles
- edge wrestling + over-complicated boundary rules
- too many stoppages, and too much time before resuming action
- 5-counts that legalize 4 sec of stalling
- refs calling “Action” instead of stalling
- HS boundary rule + small mats
- lunger timeouts and lunger bricks
- no penalty for failed challenges
- pins saved by the bell
- must release hold to score NF points
- not trying to win tie matches in regulation
- OT stall-out periods
- injury rate
- ducking
- widespread MFFs in consis
- institutional unwillingness to test new rules at offseason events and exhibitions

What I like about free:
- NLWC dominance
- nearly constant action
- fewer and shorter stoppages
- emphasis on big moves from feet
- no OT, every match must be won in regulation

What I dislike about free:
- too few weights at the Olympics
- turns with no possibility of pins scored same as turns with actual predicament
- bottom stalling encouraged
- matches ending on multiple consecutive exposures with no risk of pins
- inability to seed major international tournaments
- repechage
- erratic shot clock calls
- cutting bottom and peeling hands for escapes are technically illegal
- inconsistent domestic refs
- willfully blind/crooked international refs
- no national penalty for many years of proven organized doping
- timing of major events, especially qualifiers too close to HS/College season
There is a lot there but one jumped out at me, why do you dislike repechage? Is it that you would prefer a true consi bracket?
 
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oldcougar65

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Background:
One year In the 80's, MAWA's had ended and the season was over. There were a number of my kids that wanted to keep on wrestling. So we saw that MAWA ran a freestyle system after the folkstyle MAWA's. We went to a District tourney with 4 or 5 kids and they all advanced to the Middle Atlantic championships, I think in Newark, Delaware.
We had no idea what was going on, but a wrestler is a wrestler, even if you don't know the rules. One of my kids who won MAWA folkstyle (we never called it that back then. We were wrestling, they were freestyle) also won the freestyle MAWA. We didn't know how to keep score. We didn't know how you advanced (they had some kind of crazy way to do it. One of our kids was packed up to go home when we found out he had advanced by losing. Figure that out.)
My son didn't have a clue about freestyle scoring. He was wrestling a NJ state HS champ, and was falling behind. They were right at the edge of the mat, and my son made one of those hotdog moves that you know won't matter because you're going out of bounds but look good from the stands (my kid always had a bit of the hotdog in him). Since there was no chance of him giving up any points, he threw a big lateral drop that landed almost on the floor, they were so far out of bounds. The other kid's feet were about 6 feet off the ground mid-way through the move. The ref awarded my kid 5 points. My son looked over to me and asked, "What the hell?" I shrugged my shoulders. I had no idea why he had been awarded 5 points. I think my son placed 3rd or 4th at the MAWA finals, and we didn't know how to keep score! What kind of a sport is that? I watched 4 hours of cricket one time and by the end still had no idea what was happening. Freestyle was like that.

Recently I bit the bullet and took out a second mortgage to pay for FLO Wrestling. So after THE season, I watch what's available and like others, like to follow PSU guys. Watching the Open the other day, Markie Hall was ahead 4-0 in the finals in a somewhat tight match when he got a leg lace and that match was over in 3 seconds.
I ask you, what kind of a dumbas* sport is that? If you tech fall a kid in folkstyle, that's a pretty definitive indicator of the difference between you and the other guy. In freestyle, you might lose by a tech fall, then turn around and tech fall the same guy the next time you meet. All because of the weird scoring. In freestyle, if you score back points, you must release the hold before being able to score any more backs. (Gene Mills saw to that.) In freestyle, if you get a leglace, you could roll around in circles all day and score 100 points if they didn't stop it at a 10 point advantage.

I hate that aspect of scoring. But it's the constant dancing on the feet that bores me about freestyle. It's like watching heavyweights in folkstyle -- dancing and bumping heads until someone finally makes a move. If watching a completed match, I often fast-forward till I see some scoring happening and just watch the score. Freestyle is a lot more fun to watch that way.

Sure there are moments of real excitement. When DT made that last second takedown of the Iranian I was out of my seat. It was a major rush. But the excitement is leavened by the endless dancing.
 
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Agoodnap

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You said the key word in making folk more exciting. Enforce. The rules are there to nail guys with stalling for parallel rides, running to OOB line, etc. The refs aren't calling them for whatever reason. I'd even break out the never used double stall warnings. I'd be fine with more stalemates during rides if no turns for NF.
Watch this match until about 20 seconds into the third period.

 
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jack66

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Why not reduce the refs' workload?

Besides, as we've seen with the 5-counts -- that's a license to stall for 4.

OK make it 3 count like the danger rule ... that seems to work pretty well. Plus I doubt the other wrestler will let his back in with ease.

I'm just trying to think of a way to stop wrestlers from backing to the edge as soon as the whistle blows without adding a push-out rule. The Delgato rule and the Heil rule have worked pretty well. IMO, it's because there is well-defined guidance on what refs are supposed to do ... make it less subjective.
 

El-Jefe

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OK make it 3 count like the danger rule ... that seems to work pretty well. Plus I doubt the other wrestler will let his back in with ease.

I'm just trying to think of a way to stop wrestlers from backing to the edge as soon as the whistle blows without adding a push-out rule. The Delgato rule and the Heil rule have worked pretty well. IMO, it's because there is well-defined guidance on what refs are supposed to do ... make it less subjective.
Why over-think it? Just implement the push-out.

The secondary circle, the one with the dashed line, is their cue to avoid the penalty. No need for any count at all. And it's not "less subjective" -- it's objective.

Besides, they are all used to it. Nearly all of them have wrestled free for many years before college. They know how to stay in bounds. Trent Hidlay wrestled in the center against Aaron Brooks at Fargo -- why can't he stay in-bounds at NCAAs?
 

Ski

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Why over-think it? Just implement the push-out.

The secondary circle, the one with the dashed line, is their cue to avoid the penalty. No need for any count at all. And it's not "less subjective" -- it's objective.

Besides, they are all used to it. Nearly all of them have wrestled free for many years before college. They know how to stay in bounds. Trent Hidlay wrestled in the center against Aaron Brooks at Fargo -- why can't he stay in-bounds at NCAAs?

Thinking outside of the box (circle?) a little bit, use the secondary circle line as a way to score takedowns differently to encourage action in the center. That is, if you are in the area outside of the secondary line when a move is initiated and you get taken down then make it 3 points for your opponent. If you are in the area inside of the secondary line and you get taken down then keep it as 2 points for your opponent. Of course, it would be expensive for every institution wrestling folkstyle to replace their mats to implement this change.
 

El-Jefe

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Thinking outside of the box (circle?) a little bit, use the secondary circle line as a way to score takedowns differently to encourage action in the center. That is, if you are in the area outside of the secondary line when a move is initiated and you get taken down then make it 3 points for your opponent. If you are in the area inside of the secondary line and you get taken down then keep it as 2 points for your opponent. Of course, it would be expensive for every institution wrestling folkstyle to replace their mats to implement this change.
I like the creativity but not going for this. It's a burden on the refs, and a standing invitation for challenge bricks for when moves were initiated.

We need a smaller + simpler rulebook.
 

jack66

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OK, you like the pushout rule I don't.

I'm just looking for something in between that would give the refs better guidance and make their call "less subjective" than it is now.

At NCAAs there were 3 different occasions when Hydlay backed off the mat and wrestled from OB for over 10 seconds. A couple of others when a scramble ensued on the edge. Why? because he could.

I agree the pushout rule would be one solution, better than what we have now. I'd just like to see folk try something else before going there. To me, it doesn't seem any more complicated than the 3-count danger rule that has been a big improvement. Wrestlers are aware of the rule now and it has changed how they wrestle.
 

NoVa Lion

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May 29, 2001
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What I like about folk:
- familiarity
- PSU dominance
- emphasis on pins and near fall – i.e., turns that put bottom in at least some danger of being pinned
- wide variety of scoring moves/holds
- bottom rewarded for escaping
- college 2-min SV periods
- physical toughness
- Heil Rule
- full consolations

What I dislike about folk:
- blatant top stalling and rides with no attempts at turns
- Delgado Dive and lengthy scoreless scrambles
- edge wrestling + over-complicated boundary rules
- too many stoppages, and too much time before resuming action
- 5-counts that legalize 4 sec of stalling
- refs calling “Action” instead of stalling
- HS boundary rule + small mats
- lunger timeouts and lunger bricks
- no penalty for failed challenges
- pins saved by the bell
- must release hold to score NF points
- not trying to win tie matches in regulation
- OT stall-out periods
- injury rate
- ducking
- widespread MFFs in consis
- institutional unwillingness to test new rules at offseason events and exhibitions

What I like about free:
- NLWC dominance
- nearly constant action
- fewer and shorter stoppages
- emphasis on big moves from feet
- no OT, every match must be won in regulation

What I dislike about free:
- too few weights at the Olympics
- turns with no possibility of pins scored same as turns with actual predicament
- bottom stalling encouraged
- matches ending on multiple consecutive exposures with no risk of pins
- inability to seed major international tournaments
- repechage
- erratic shot clock calls
- cutting bottom and peeling hands for escapes are technically illegal
- inconsistent domestic refs
- willfully blind/crooked international refs
- no national penalty for many years of proven organized doping
- timing of major events, especially qualifiers too close to HS/College season
Good list and I agree with almost all of them. There are pluses and minuses for both styles. Personally I like the contrast, but would definitely make some changes to both styles if I could.. Unfortunately no one consults me on these matters. :cool:
 
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El-Jefe

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OK, you like the pushout rule I don't.

I'm just looking for something in between that would give the refs better guidance and make their call "less subjective" than it is now.

At NCAAs there were 3 different occasions when Hydlay backed off the mat and wrestled from OB for over 10 seconds. A couple of others when a scramble ensued on the edge. Why? because he could.

I agree the pushout rule would be one solution, better than what we have now. I'd just like to see folk try something else before going there. To me, it doesn't seem any more complicated than the 3-count danger rule that has been a big improvement. Wrestlers are aware of the rule now and it has changed how they wrestle.
I don't like the pushout. I wish no rules regarding boundary stalling were necessary.

I also wish we didn't need housing codes, fraud laws, DUI laws, etc.

I also wish I could've retired at 25.
 

PSU Mike

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Why not reduce the refs' workload?

Besides, as we've seen with the 5-counts -- that's a license to stall for 4.
Doesn’t your being on the clock often result in your opponent being more conservative and defensive for 30 seconds in free?
 
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Petch

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Mar 28, 2012
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My two biggest problems with free is…

  1. It is so subjective with some of the scoring sequences. For example, there was a sequence in the Cenzo-McFadden match that I thought should have been scored 4-0 or 4-2 at worst favoring Cenzo. Instead, it was scored 2-2, which ultimately cost Cenzo the match.

  2. The leg lace. What a stupid way to tech a guy….sheesh!
 
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oldcougar65

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Mar 11, 2015
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and we haven't even addressed Greco.
I just watched the most famous Greco match in history: Gardner v Karelin. Nine minutes of intense dancing. They "wrestled" for nine minutes and there was 1 point scored. And I can't figure out how the one point was awarded. The officials got together and decided they'd give Gardner a point for some obscure reason. Something to do with locked hands or unlocked hands.
The excitement was palpable. A stadium full of people, and an over-excited announcer had the times of their lives watching fat guys dance.

Sorry. Not for me.
 
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a_mshaffer

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Dec 8, 2014
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My two biggest problems with free is that…

  1. It is so subjective with some of the scoring sequences. For example, there was a sequence in the Cenzo-McFadden match that I thought should have been scored 4-0 or 4-2 at worst favoring Cenzo. Instead, it was scored 2-2, which ultimately cost Cenzo the match.

  2. The leg lace. What a stupid way to tech a guy….sheesh!
Don't forget the 'correct throw' that didn't work ...
 

CropDuster507

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Jul 13, 2015
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I’m abstaining.

Much like anything else, if you try Greco & Free and don’t like it, then it ain’t for you. It’s just for the rest of the world.
 
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Rick Sanchez

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Keep college folk. I’d like the Freestyle step out rule but then you’d have guys who, like a lot of Iranians, just dig an under hook and start pushing. So I dunno lol.
 
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zzs006

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As an athlete I liked freestyle more and honestly it’s because folk is ****ing demanding and you have to be in incredible shape. You do in freestyle as well but it’s different and you get more breaks. As s fan I love watching free or folk, just not greco. I love watching high level high school like the Ironman but also love U17’s. Love NCAA’s the most but the worlds is a very close second. The only other sport I watch religiously is hockey. I watch every Colorado Avalanche game I can. I know people hate FLO but I absolutely love them because I now get to watch wrestling almost every weekend. Before Flo I only got to watch NCAA’s and some freestyle way after the fact on YouTube. Now I get high level wrestling almost weekly plus every match is archived so I can go back and watch more. This past weekend had so much great wrestling that I couldn’t keep up but all week I’ve been going back and catching up on great matches. It’s a pretty great time to be a wrestling fan no matter which style you prefer
 

nitlion6

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As an athlete I liked freestyle more and honestly it’s because folk is ****ing demanding and you have to be in incredible shape. You do in freestyle as well but it’s different and you get more breaks. As s fan I love watching free or folk, just not greco. I love watching high level high school like the Ironman but also love U17’s. Love NCAA’s the most but the worlds is a very close second. The only other sport I watch religiously is hockey. I watch every Colorado Avalanche game I can. I know people hate FLO but I absolutely love them because I now get to watch wrestling almost every weekend. Before Flo I only got to watch NCAA’s and some freestyle way after the fact on YouTube. Now I get high level wrestling almost weekly plus every match is archived so I can go back and watch more. This past weekend had so much great wrestling that I couldn’t keep up but all week I’ve been going back and catching up on great matches. It’s a pretty great time to be a wrestling fan no matter which style you prefer
I can and will watch alot of sports, but most of it is peripheral. Wrestling, I can sit and watch for hours and everything else becomes peripheral.