I'm not nearly as down on Franklin as you are, but every QB has empirically performed worse and broken down physically the longer in his system. Experience just makes them worse.
Franklin
- Thread starter WV Bruno
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Franklin is the worst game day coach there is and everyone knows it, don’t make any excuses for this guy. If this is what Psu wants than go to the Ivy League and you can talk graduation, math, science or any other subject. This is called big boy football you can’t win go somewhere else
There is a lot to unpack there, not all of it accurate.
Hackenberg
Showed up as the top ranked high school quarterback since Andrew Luck. Pure pro-style player. He improved every snap from the moment he arrived until O'Brien left. He regressed in just about every measure after he left despite being the unquestioned MVP of the 14 and 15 seasons and the only reason we didn't fall to 3-9 both years. Forget the constant pressure resulting from John Donovan's refusal to use pure man blocking which our linemen actually did well in the limited time they used it, or the horribly route tree combinations which allowed defensives to defend 3 receivers with 2 players on a regular basis. Delivery, footwork, everything suffered under Rahne and Donovan. Never mind the under-discussed shoulder injury that essentially killed his career. Ricky Rahne was the worst QB coach in Big Ten history by a wide margin.
McSorley
Trace benefited from Franklin running Hack off the roster when paired with JoeMo who wanted to run what LSU ran in 2018 with Hack. As a side note, had Hack stayed, we had better offensive talent across the board than what LSU had in 2018 with Barkley, Godwin, Gesicki and Hamilton. While people fault Trace's performance in 2018, and some blame an injury that only impacted one game, the fact of the matter was with Godwin, Gesicki, and mostly importantly, Barkley and Moorhead gone, he showed who he was. An average dual threat QB. Trace did not regress one bit. He was always the player we say in 2018.
Clifford
Cliff is a different story. Whereas Trace was a glorified option QB, Clifford is more of a pro-style that can run but not a pure prostyle. Hi 2019 was objectively the best season a Penn State QB has produced (while facing the most difficult schedule) since DC in 2009 despite playing with a major drop in skill position talent compared to the previous year with the loss of Hamilton and Sanders. He wasn't a perfect fit for the offense JoeMo left for Trace to run as Rahne lacked the coaching acumen to adjust it to the talent on hand. Then 2020 hit. Rahne leaves, Franklin hires a west coast offense coach who radically changes the offense. New blocking scheme the players can't execute, 2 years of Rahn'e QB coaching that needed to be undone and the offense was a failure. It sort of turned around late when the scrapped the scheme and most reverted to the scheme the ran the previous two. Covid wasn't the reason the offense failed nor did Cliff regress. He had to learn something new while relearning how to play QB. Enter 2021, a new blocking scheme less suitable to the talent on hand than the previous one but Rahne's damage was mostly undone. Until getting hurt, Cliff was fine despite being a roundish peg in a squarish hole. Even then, after he returned, the chinks in the armor discovered throughout the first half of the season, none of which were QB related, doomed the season.
Bottom line, Hack was destroyed by poor coaching, Trace was always the average QB we saw in 2018 and Cliff was yoyoed by constant changes at OC resulting in mixed performance. Bottom line, coaching and recruiting has impacted the QB position more than most, and all it is on Franklin.
We'll agree to disagree. McSorley had a tough tough senior year and his numbers were worse. And like Clifford, he was banged up
It's tough to dispute Coach Wally. He's got that metric thing going on.....and he's the virtuoso of hyperbole.
I'd take Trace 2x on any day.....
3 year average production: 550YR 3250YP 10RTDs 25PTDs 10W-3L.....1 Big Ten Title.
Amazing that a few fanboys would defend Hack and find fault with Trace.
Hack's college QB rating 121.4
TM college QB rating 144.5
and which "average" QB had the longest tenure in NFL?
PSU would have won 2 more games in 2015 if CJF had benched Hackenberg.
You can keep telling yourself that if you want but you know it isn't true. Had Hack stayed in 2016, we run the table during the regular season, win the Big Ten and go to the playoffs with a legit shot to win it, not back into the Rose Bowl and blow it because Trace doesn't have the mental ability to know his own limitations. The thing happened against Pitt.
You think they would have beaten Michigan? I doubt it.
Hack couldn't read a blitz, threw bubble screens into the ground and generally had the yips. Not even private coaches nor 4 NFL organizations could coach him.....he did last 3 weeks(3ints0tds) in the AAF.https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/86407/the-1-in-1300-draft-pick-the-jets-would-like-to-forget-christian-hackenberg
The 1-in-1,300 draft pick the Jets would like to forget -- Christian Hackenberg
Selected No. 51 overall in 2016, he never played a down in the NFL and sits atop a long, dismal list of quarterback whiffs by the Jets.
Except that he could read a blitz very well as well as everything a pro-style QB is expected to do. He demonstrated it. It is on film. By the time he got to the NFL, his mechanics were worse than his senior year in high school because Franklin tried to turn him into a college spread QB wrecking his shoulder in the process. Franking and his clowns ruined his career before it started. Hack should have transferred. We were better because he stayed but the fact remains that we have the worst offensive coaching in American in 2014 and 2015. You can defend the most over-rated, over-paid coach in the country all you want but it doesn't change anything.Hack couldn't read a blitz, threw bubble screens into the ground and generally had the yips. Not even private coaches nor 4 NFL organizations could coach him.....he did last 3 weeks(3ints0tds) in the AAF.https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/86407/the-1-in-1300-draft-pick-the-jets-would-like-to-forget-christian-hackenberg
The 1-in-1,300 draft pick the Jets would like to forget -- Christian Hackenberg
Selected No. 51 overall in 2016, he never played a down in the NFL and sits atop a long, dismal list of quarterback whiffs by the Jets.www.espn.com
Trace's worst year as a starter is better than Hack's average. That has to mean something.
Was Hack going to block that Michigan DL AND go iron man pulling double duty at LB as well?
I guess Trace dropped the potential game winning TD against Pitt as well? Hack certainly would not have, right?
Your takes are so contradictory. You can't credit BOB with everything while pissing on JF equally. Particularly when they don't correlate.
But please. Carry on with this wayward line of thought. It's completely unnecessary. There is enough bad evidence to go against JF from the past 2 years that we don't have to rewrite the narrative.
Tell me you don't know much about football without saying? You just did.
Trace played in an actual offensive system with talent to carry him. That is all it says. Hack was the offense.
If we had a QB with an arm that could challenge the entire field rather than a small portion of it, Michigan (along with everyone else) would not have been able to throw 8 people at Barkley. Trace was the problem. That is a fact.
Trace didn't drop the game winning touchdown but the ball he threw was uncatchable. The ball was three yards off target. Even with Rahne's coaching, Hack makes that throw. The ball was thrown to the outside shoulder vs. the inside forcing Hamilton to do a full rotation and was thrown a full yard downfield preventing him from adjusting. Trace blew the game. Not that all the fumbles before weren't part of it either. Again, that is a fact.
This isn't rewriting the narrative. This is correcting a clown, or really a group of clowns.
2:52 mark.
3 yards off target, but he got a hand on it? Was it a perfect throw? No. Was it catchable? Yes.
Full rotation? Are you just making up stuff or did you not watch it again before typing? @Wallace Breen
Just because you touched it doesn't mean it is catchable. The ball was horribly thrown. 100% on Trace. A great many people that think things like this would be wise to remember Abe Lincoln.
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt - It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid."
I just completely proved that everything you said about the play was wrong with video evidence. Maybe you should listen to Abe yourself.
Except for the fact that the only thing you proved is that you don't know what you are talking about. The video proves I am right. The video is conclusive. Hamilton was expecting the catch the ball at hip height below the inside shoulder. The ball was thrown high over the outside shoulder forcing him to do a full hip and hand rotation. The ball was uncatchable. That fact doesn't change regardless of whether he actually touched it.
a) "elite" level recruiting for me is top 10 every year, and a top 5 thrown in every few years.
b) Franklin has not nearly recruited at an "elite" level overall. Only one top 10 class out of 8 per the 247 composite.
2014 #24
2015 #14
2016 #20
2017 #15
2018 #6
2019 #12
2020 #15
2021 #21
c) 2020 was a wasted effort in many ways. No Spring practice. Early cancellation of season by B10, and then a hurried startup of the season as well as the 2021 NFL defensive rookie of the year, Parsons, sitting out. Most fans that followed those events and circumstances realize 2020 did not reflect Franklin's overall performance at PSU during his overall tenure.
d) Covid seemed to impact Franklin's recruiting model more so that it impacted other top 15 programs. He sells a family oriented program, and the top game day atmosphere in college football. He couldn't do that during the Covid campus visit restrictions which set his recruiting and PSU's improvement back a couple of years.
e) Franklin inherited a decimated roster with less than half the olinemen of a competitive P5 team. His first 2 seasons, 2014 & 2015 he did well to post winning records.
f) So for me, he has had 5 true seasons (excluding 2014,2015 and 2020) to evaluate him as a coach, talent acquirer, talent evaluator, game day preparer, roster manager, staff assembler,..... Out of those 5 seasons PSU won 11 games in 3 years (2016,2017,2019), won 9 games 1 year (2018), and won 7 games in 2021. 2021 was the only really disappointing year. Based upon his recruiting classes those three 11 win seasons look like he exceeded the performance expected in those years. His 2018 #6 class payers were only sophomores in 2019.
Can Franklin recruit better, consistently top 10? Many believe so. I expected him to do so going forward from Covid. But some underestimate the challenge of winning the B10 East and getting into the current playoffs.
I look at the current situation as Franklin needing to continue to improve recruiting and build a roster to challenge the recent top teams - Bama, oh-high-ya, UGA, Oklahoma, Clemson. I have a hard time including ND due to how they seemed to squeak into the playoff and then got embarrassed. Or Michigan. But the other obvious contenders to break back into the top of college football are ND, USC, Texas, Texas A&M, Michigan and maybe a few others.
Franklin needs to finish his 2023 class better than he has the last few classes and end up with a top 10 class, have a 10 win season in 2022, and then have an even better 2024 recruiting class to point PSU truly into being one of the legit players for a playoff spot going forward. NIL has complicated any team's ability to stockpile talent and the jury is out on how well Franklin has and will use NIL as an advantage. But other than the disappointment of the way the 2021 season played out, partially due to a couple of injuries that seems to disproportionately impact a couple close games, I find it hard to be too critical of what Franklin has done so far at PSU.
Was there a better coach available when PSU hired Franklin? Even in hindsight I have a hard time coming up with a name........
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Results matter. As we’ve seen he is not an elite recruiter. He is a good recruiter.
Record wise he is 11-19 vs. ranked opponents and only 19-18 on the road. That’s average at best.
Unfortunately, his teams seem to always start well with a great record in Aug/Sept (26-5) but do not get better as the season wears on. October record is 17-10 and November is 17-15 which is interesting because he typically has a bye week in October but it rarely benefits them.
His record is better in December (7-0) than it is in January (0-3) but
Record wise he is 11-19 vs. ranked opponents and only 19-18 on the road. That’s average at best.
Unfortunately, his teams seem to always start well with a great record in Aug/Sept (26-5) but do not get better as the season wears on. October record is 17-10 and November is 17-15 which is interesting because he typically has a bye week in October but it rarely benefits them.
His record is better in December (7-0) than it is in January (0-3) but
I don't care.
Take a close look at how many plays the defense had to play during those seasons, how many quick turnaround they had to deal with because we couldn't sustain drives and how much bad field position they were forced to deal with and why? Hint, the offense, and the weakest link on the offense by a country mile was quarterback.
And yet, when it comes to impact on the field, his best classes were 14 to 16 which were mostly comprised of the pipeline he inherited and his biggest impact players, most of whom were not his guys, remain the best player at most positions he has had.
Never mind his horrible record against teams with roughly the same talent or more talent over his career. He rarely wins games against more talented teams (2 total in his career) or teams with equal or slightly less talent where he bats about .100.
Paterno last 8 full seasons was 65-35. He also didn't have a pandemic to deal with or NCAA sanctions to deal with like Franklin.
Marquis program? That is a joke. Penn State hasn't been a marquis for two decades prior to Franklin arriving. You are still living like it the 80s or early 90s.
Franklin didn't have to deal with the sanctions either because O'Brien was able to successfully deal with them. Franklin and his sycophants have used the sanctions as an excuse for years because that is what they do to cover up for the fact that he wasn't ready for the Penn State job when he arrived. The fact of the matter is he was handed a ten win team and ran it into the ground. He inherited a top 2 defense nationally behind only Michigan State. He inherited the best pro-style QB in the country and proceeded to ruin him after attempting to bench him before the players revolted. He benched the best power back in the conference (ZZ Top) for Bill Belton and expected him to block on a regular basis. He benched Kyle Carter, an established pass catching tight end for Mike Gesicki who wasn't ready to play until Joe Moorhead arrived two years later. He pushed Geno Lewis, who was the best deep threat in the Big Ten in 2013, off the roster. Franklin's gross incompetence was on display his first two years and paid bare when Sandy forced him to shake up the offensive staff that he said was good. If you want to make this about Paterno, he had three teams during that period that were better than any Franklin has had by a wide margin. Bottom line, Franklin is by far the worst our our last four head coaches by a wide margin. Rip was better, Paterno is the GOAT and O'Brien have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can coach and recruit circles around Franklin's over-rated, over-paid, under-performing fourth point of contact. And as the biggest Pitt fan on the board would say, we are stuck with him for ten years.
That is such a bad take to blame the collapsing defense on the offense then blame it all on the QB. The defense flat let us down in those games. In '18, up by 12 with 8 minutes to go with a raucous White Out crowd supporting you and you fold like a cheap tent. Nobody is going to convince me the blame for that loss is on Trace McSorely. Yes on Franklin but not McSorley.
With your logic I would say the reason we lost the Pitt game in 2016 is because the defense started the game asleep and thus Trace and the offense had to throw too much and get us back in the game. On the drive resulting in the pick he was tired and he was tired because of the defense. The off target throw to Hamilton was a direct result of having to throw too much to catch up because the defense put us in a hole.
Also in the bowl game against UK our lousy defense could not get a 3 and out so we lose. Sparty in '18, that wonderful secondary blows the game just like they did against O$U. Heck the D almost blew the Fiesta Bowl vs Washington.
'99 to '04 was the worst 5 year stretch for all of PSU football. In fact '99 was the epitome of an underachieving team. JoePa is a legend but c'mon man.
Yes we bounced back in '02 but still nothing great. And we cap it off with that terrible '03 Citrus Bowl loss.
