Forbes: Urban Meyer’s fate rests with Law Firm’s findings (link)

[Cosmos]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbaker/2018/08/13/urban-meyer-ohio-state-zach-smith/#1b7587175e8a

We can forget about Title IX. Unless Courtney Smith was seeking education or employment at tOSU it is not germane to the case.

We needn’t focus on the 2015 incident, either. First, Smith was never arrested. And yet Gene Smith confronted Zach Smith about violating the restraining order. How did Gene Smith found out? Unless he makes a habit of reading local police blotters he probably found out through Urban Meyer. Ergo, Meyer followed reporting protocols. The smoking gun would be lack-of-evidence Urban reported it. But based on his statement release Urban seems pretty confident. My money is on Urban here.

Therefore, the “issue at bar” is tOSU’s policy on domestic violence. Urban knew of the 2009 incident but despite this he hired Zach Smith. This shows indifference to acts of domestic violence and therefore, cause to fire Urban Meyer. Maybe this explains Courtney Smith’s threats to bring down Zach and Meyer in 2013. I doubt DailyBuck77 can argue against this. IMO, Urban is gone by the beginning of next week.

Important to note the law firm leading the probe is international and not Columbus-based. That lends credence to the independence of the investigation.

 

[LuvDaLions]

One error in your post, Gene Smith said that he heard about the incident from the Powell police department.

 

[fastlax16]

One error in your post, Gene Smith said that he heard about the incident from the Powell police department.

This. Makes perfect sense for local PD to notify the OSU AD about criminal allegations...

 

[Global Fan]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbaker/2018/08/13/urban-meyer-ohio-state-zach-smith/#1b7587175e8a

We can forget about Title IX. Unless Courtney Smith was seeking education or employment at tOSU it is not germane to the case.

We needn’t focus on the 2015 incident, either. First, Smith was never arrested. And yet Gene Smith confronted Zach Smith about violating the restraining order. How did Gene Smith found out? Unless he makes a habit of reading local police blotters he probably found out through Urban Meyer. Ergo, Meyer followed reporting protocols. The smoking gun would be lack-of-evidence Urban reported it. But based on his statement release Urban seems pretty confident. My money is on Urban here.

Therefore, the “issue at bar” is tOSU’s policy on domestic violence. Urban knew of the 2009 incident but despite this he hired Zach Smith. This shows indifference to acts of domestic violence and therefore, cause to fire Urban Meyer. Maybe this explains Courtney Smith’s threats to bring down Zach and Meyer in 2013. I doubt DailyBuck77 can argue against this. IMO, Urban is gone by the beginning of next week.

Important to note the law firm leading the probe is international and not Columbus-based. That lends credence to the independence of the investigation.

From the Forbes article....Allegations involving universities' covering up sexual or domestic violence produce verdicts from the court of public opinion that often weigh as heavy as those rendered by courts of law.

Really, you think?

 

[NittPicker]

The author leaves open the possibility of Meyer being fired. I feel very confident in saying that is not going to happen unless it's proven Meyer was giving Smith advice on how to beat Mrs. Smith.

 

[78SweetRevenge]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbaker/2018/08/13/urban-meyer-ohio-state-zach-smith/#1b7587175e8a

We can forget about Title IX. Unless Courtney Smith was seeking education or employment at tOSU it is not germane to the case.

We needn’t focus on the 2015 incident, either. First, Smith was never arrested. And yet Gene Smith confronted Zach Smith about violating the restraining order. How did Gene Smith found out? Unless he makes a habit of reading local police blotters he probably found out through Urban Meyer. Ergo, Meyer followed reporting protocols. The smoking gun would be lack-of-evidence Urban reported it. But based on his statement release Urban seems pretty confident. My money is on Urban here.

Therefore, the “issue at bar” is tOSU’s policy on domestic violence. Urban knew of the 2009 incident but despite this he hired Zach Smith. This shows indifference to acts of domestic violence and therefore, cause to fire Urban Meyer. Maybe this explains Courtney Smith’s threats to bring down Zach and Meyer in 2013. I doubt DailyBuck77 can argue against this. IMO, Urban is gone by the beginning of next week.

Important to note the law firm leading the probe is international and not Columbus-based. That lends credence to the independence of the investigation.

If we're down to "indifference to domestic violence" he's not getting fired

 

[WPB_lion]

The author leaves open the possibility of Meyer being fired. I feel very confident in saying that is not going to happen unless it's proven Meyer was giving Smith advice on how to beat Mrs. Smith.

I disagree. After reading the article, it appears tOSU is looking for a way to fire him without breaching the contract. They don't want to pay the $40 million for terminating the contract early. If the law firm tells them they can terminate the contract without paying the penalty, I think Urban is gone.

 

[78SweetRevenge]

I disagree. After reading the article, it appears tOSU is looking for a way to fire him without breaching the contract. They don't want to pay the $40 million for terminating the contract early. If the law firm tells them they can terminate the contract without paying the penalty, I think Urban is gone.

I'm not saying you're wrong but why do you think they actually want to get rid of him?

 

[Ceasar]

When the investigation ends and the university issue a written statement, I think it is fair to say that regardless of Meyer's fate, 75% of that statement is going to be about how OSU has zero tolerance for domestic abuse, is committed to supporting victims, etc.... So how can they take that position and still say they will allow Urban to remain as HC, the most visible position within the university? Will they put him on some sort of probation? Vow to educate him? IMHO it is simply not going to be plausible for OSU to reach any decision other than to terminate him.
For those who say, "if he reported it, he is safe", I honestly don't think it is going to make any difference if he reported it. All that means is Gene Smith also loses his job, as will anyone above Smith who was aware of the 2015 allegation. Don't lose sight of the fact that Urban hires and fires his assistants. Could the university have forced him to terminate Smith? Sure. But certainly they did not come to Urban and say "we forbid you from firing Zack Smith over this incident". So he may well have reported it, and perhaps the "investigators" came back to him and said "this is he said/she said" so we are not going to terminate him based on his actions, but if you feel he is toxic you can certainly do what you think is best for your program". So my point is, at some point this comes back to Urban to defend why he kept Smith on staff even though he knew of 2009 and 2015. All of the text messages to Urban's wife, and her responses... that's just piling on additional layers of insulation for the University to rely on when they terminate Urban.
Lastly, as we saw over the weekend, even though Herman may not have been the source for the initial story, there are also rumors out there that another former assistant at OSU, Tim Beck, may have been a source. Beck was a assistant for Meyer at OSU for a few years and is now OC at Texas. Anyone who has an ax to grind with Meyer is going to come out of the woodwork to provide details that may undermine any denials Urban may make.
So, IMHO, the only way Urban can keep his job is if he truly did not know of anything other than '09 and '15, was kept completely in the dark by Gene Smith as to any 2015 investigation, never heard anything from his wife relative to the texts, never had an assistant tell him Smith was toxic... and OSU is willing to suffer the embarrassment of admitting they were aware of two incidents of alleged domestic abuse, were willing to keep the alleged abuser and are now willing to keep the people who made the decision to keep the alleged abuser.

 

[nits74]

I'm not saying you're wrong but why do you think they actually want to get rid of him?

Optics, perhaps?

 

[Ceasar]

I disagree. After reading the article, it appears tOSU is looking for a way to fire him without breaching the contract. They don't want to pay the $40 million for terminating the contract early. If the law firm tells them they can terminate the contract without paying the penalty, I think Urban is gone.

Just my .02 but I doubt the $40M is even an issue. IMO that would be negotiated and Urban will take less than that to go away. If they agree to pay him 20M OSU saves 20M and Urban rides into the sunset with a massive lump sum of money, relaxes for a year or two and returns to coach at a sleeping giant such as USC, Texas (wouldn't that be ironic?), Iowa, FSU, Oregon ...

 

[Lion Lineage]

I'm not saying you're wrong but why do you think they actually want to get rid of him?

I think they’re looking to fire Meyer for likely three reasons: He knew of the allegations against Smith in 2009 and yet brought him on board at tOSU. Why would he do this? Then he found out about allegations of additional abuse in 2015 and may have done nothing after hearing about it. It appears that Gene Smith said that he heard about it from the Powell Police, which would mean Meyer did not alert him to the allegations. If I remember correctly there is also a code of conduct that tOSU employees have to follow and part of that code is that the employees are required to report suspected abuse by a tOSU employee to the Title IX Office. If Meyer didn’t tell the AD, how likely is it he made a report to the Title IX Office? That’s more than enough “cause” to terminate him.

 

[NittPicker]

Optics, perhaps?

That could very well be true. I don't claim to know any details of OSU/Meyer/Smith but I do know that firing someone because of optics (AKA appeasing the media/public) is a cop out. That's why our BOT fired Joe.

 

[78SweetRevenge]

I think they’re looking to fire Meyer for likely three reasons: He knew of the allegations against Smith in 2009 and yet brought him on board at tOSU. Why would he do this? Then he found out about allegations of additional abuse in 2015 and may have done nothing after hearing about it. It appears that Gene Smith said that he heard about it from the Powell Police, which would mean Meyer did not alert him to the allegations. If I remember correctly there is also a code of conduct that tOSU employees have to follow and part of that code is that the employees are required to report suspected abuse by a tOSU employee to the Title IX Office. If Meyer didn’t tell the AD, how likely is it he made a report to the Title IX Office? That’s more than enough “cause” to terminate him.

Looking for cause indicates they want to fire him though--I don't believe that to be true.

I understand the point you're making and I'm not saying you're wrong but I think they can easily turn all of that into "Meyer wasn't aware of the gravity of the situation nor did he have reason to believe the allegations were true". We're reaching a dangerous point in society where an allegation is enough to fire someone or not hire them.

 

[WPB_lion]

I'm not saying you're wrong but why do you think they actually want to get rid of him?

He is irretrievably tainted. An OSU vacancy may be the most sought after job in the country with the talent that Urban has amassed. The coach can immediately challenge for the national championship. They don't need to settle for a great coach who is irretrievably tainted (UM) and damages their reputation as an institution. They can get a great coach who is not tainted and come out looking like a university who does not put football ahead everything.

Think of the best coach out there (outside of Nick Saban) and, if tOSU wants him, the coach will give serious thought to going there. Who knows how much money they will be willing to throw at the new coach (especially if they get out of paying the $40 million to UM). They will be given so much praise for having had the moral compass to fire one of the best college football coaches of all time that very little criticism will follow a large offer $$ to a new coach. I don't think they will miss a beat on the football field.

 

[Art]

Looking for cause indicates they want to fire him though--I don't believe that to be true.

I understand the point you're making and I'm not saying you're wrong but I think they can easily turn all of that into "Meyer wasn't aware of the gravity of the situation nor did he have reason to believe the allegations were true". We're reaching a dangerous point in society where an allegation is enough to fire someone or not hire them.

Not Urban's call to determine "gravity of the situation" or whether "allegations were true." If that's a defense, it's a universal excuse. Rule is that if you are aware of the possibility of abuse, you report it and let those with the expertise and authority to investigate do their job.

 

[fastlax16]

He is irretrievably tainted. An OSU vacancy may be the most sought after job in the country with the talent that Urban has amassed. The coach can immediately challenge for the national championship. They don't need to settle for a great coach who is irretrievably tainted (UM) and damages their reputation as an institution. They can get a great coach who is not tainted and come out looking like a university who does not put football ahead everything.

Think of the best coach out there (outside of Nick Saban) and, if tOSU wants him, the coach will give serious thought to going there. Who knows how much money they will be willing to throw at the new coach (especially if they get out of paying the $40 million to UM). They will be given so much praise for having had the moral compass to fire one of the best college football coaches of all time that very little criticism will follow a large offer $$ to a new coach. I don't think they will miss a beat on the football field.

He's tainted, but I think it's a stretch to say irretrievably so given what is currently known and his track record for winning. Bobby Petrino is coaching afterall... there's a school out there that would hire Urban if he were let go. IF more dirt is uncovered that may change.

 

[Art]

He is irretrievably tainted. An OSU vacancy may be the most sought after job in the country with the talent that Urban has amassed. The coach can immediately challenge for the national championship. They don't need to settle for a great coach who is irretrievably tainted (UM) and damages their reputation as an institution. They can get a great coach who is not tainted and come out looking like a university who does not put football ahead everything.

Think of the best coach out there (outside of Nick Saban) and, if tOSU wants him, the coach will give serious thought to going there. Who knows how much money they will be willing to throw at the new coach (especially if they get out of paying the $40 million to UM). They will be given so much praise for having had the moral compass to fire one of the best college football coaches of all time that very little criticism will follow a large offer $$ to a new coach. I don't think they will miss a beat on the football field.

Depends on how thick the "taint" is. I'm gonna guess that unless the evidence indicates that Urban was told directly by Courtney Smith or repeatedly by second-hand sources, he can survive with a slap on the wrist (censure, suspension, fine).

 

[Cletus11]

If they terminate UM, then he will just sue for his money and a settlement will happen. So OSU will be paying up either way. So in that sense, it is what is the better optics for OSU.

 

[MJG-90]

I disagree. After reading the article, it appears tOSU is looking for a way to fire him without breaching the contract. They don't want to pay the $40 million for terminating the contract early. If the law firm tells them they can terminate the contract without paying the penalty, I think Urban is gone.

I've been saying this from the time his buyout terms were made public. Though I'm not positive they want to fire him. I am certain they don't want to fire him and still have to pay all $38 million. Hence they are buying time to look over all options.

I wonder what our BOT would have done had Joe actually had a long term contract with protections against being fired without cause.

 

[WPB_lion]

That could very well be true. I don't claim to know any details of OSU/Meyer/Smith but I do know that firing someone because of optics (AKA appeasing the media/public) is a cop out. That's why our BOT fired Joe.

It is not a cop out when the person is making $7 million / year and is the most recognizable face of a University. You want to be a head coach at a top notch college program, you have to be relatively clean. If you are not and the issue is one that is deemed socially important, the University has to make a choice between its reputation and winning on the football field.

 

[Ceasar]

Looking for cause indicates they want to fire him though--I don't believe that to be true.

I understand the point you're making and I'm not saying you're wrong but I think they can easily turn all of that into "Meyer wasn't aware of the gravity of the situation nor did he have reason to believe the allegations were true". We're reaching a dangerous point in society where an allegation is enough to fire someone or not hire them.

I don't think he would be fired for an allegation. I think he would fired for his own repeated decisions which run counter to OSU's stated philosophy as a university (speaking hypothetically here and not citing any specific OSU policy...). I think it is important to distinguish between two questions - did Zack Smith commit acts of domestic violence against his wife/ex-wife? Did Urban consciously determine he wanted Zack Smith on his staff even he was made aware on multiple occasions that domestic abuse had been alleged? I would imagine he would terminated for the latter, which involves Urban's own conscious decisions, as opposed to being terminated because allegations were made against his coach. I think the argument that was floated last week - that in fact no abuse ever occurred and it was all a smear campaign against poor Zack Smith - that trial balloon has burst.

 

[WPB_lion]

He's tainted, but I think it's a stretch to say irretrievably so given what is currently known and his track record for winning. Bobby Petrino is coaching afterall... there's a school out there that would hire Urban if he were let go. IF more dirt is uncovered that may change.

The Louisvilles of this world will hire tainted coaches in order to achieve success on the field. Top five programs do not have to settle for tainted coaches unless they choose to do so.

 

[Howie'81]

If we're down to "indifference to domestic violence" he's not getting fired

Ah, so that's A-OK.

 

[fastlax16]

The Louisvilles of this world will hire tainted coaches in order to achieve success on the field. Top five programs do not have to settle for tainted coaches unless they choose to do so.

Yup.

 

[78SweetRevenge]

He is irretrievably tainted. An OSU vacancy may be the most sought after job in the country with the talent that Urban has amassed. The coach can immediately challenge for the national championship. They don't need to settle for a great coach who is irretrievably tainted (UM) and damages their reputation as an institution. They can get a great coach who is not tainted and come out looking like a university who does not put football ahead everything.

Think of the best coach out there (outside of Nick Saban) and, if tOSU wants him, the coach will give serious thought to going there. Who knows how much money they will be willing to throw at the new coach (especially if they get out of paying the $40 million to UM). They will be given so much praise for having had the moral compass to fire one of the best college football coaches of all time that very little criticism will follow a large offer $$ to a new coach. I don't think they will miss a beat on the football field.

We disagree on "irretrievably tainted"
Kids will still want to play for him to reach the next level...he's still Urban Meyer

 

[78SweetRevenge]

It is not a cop out when the person is making $7 million / year and is the most recognizable face of a University. You want to be a head coach at a top notch college program, you have to be relatively clean. If you are not and the issue is one that is deemed socially important, the University has to make a choice between its reputation and winning on the football field.

Isn't he still "relatively clean"? I completely disagree in giving in to the public as we did

 

[78SweetRevenge]

Ah, so that's A-OK.

It's not going to get him fired...if that's "a-ok" in your mind that's fine.

 

[Howie'81]

He is irretrievably tainted. An OSU vacancy may be the most sought after job in the country with the talent that Urban has amassed. The coach can immediately challenge for the national championship. They don't need to settle for a great coach who is irretrievably tainted (UM) and damages their reputation as an institution. They can get a great coach who is not tainted and come out looking like a university who does not put football ahead everything.

Think of the best coach out there (outside of Nick Saban) and, if tOSU wants him, the coach will give serious thought to going there. Who knows how much money they will be willing to throw at the new coach (especially if they get out of paying the $40 million to UM). They will be given so much praise for having had the moral compass to fire one of the best college football coaches of all time that very little criticism will follow a large offer $$ to a new coach. I don't think they will miss a beat on the football field.

Oh, they'll miss a beat or two, but it won't be very bad at all.

 

[Howie'81]

It's not going to get him fired...if that's "a-ok" in your mind that's fine.

Frankly, you seem to be minimizing what was a dangerous situation and implying that OSU would do the same.

 

[78SweetRevenge]

Frankly, you seem to be minimizing what was a dangerous situation and implying that OSU would do the same.

I'm dealing with what is and what is likely to happen.
If this happened at Penn State I wouldn't think Franklin should be fired so I'm going to say the same about any other school.
I do think what happened at Maryland is a far bigger issue than this

 

[Howie'81]

I'm dealing with what is and what is likely to happen.
If this happened at Penn State I wouldn't think Franklin should be fired so I'm going to say the same about any other school.
I do think what happened at Maryland is a far bigger issue than this

If it happened at Penn State he most certainly would be fired. Frankly, there's more on Urban here than there ever was on Paterno.

 

[78SweetRevenge]

If it happened at Penn State he most certainly would be fired. Frankly, there's more on Urban here than there ever was on Paterno.

We handled the Paterno situation horrifically. And I think we learned from it. Or hope we did
Also, even if you are right and he would be fired if it happened at Penn State it doesn't mean he should be or I would say he should be.

 

[psuro]

When the investigation ends and the university issue a written statement, I think it is fair to say that regardless of Meyer's fate, 75% of that statement is going to be about how OSU has zero tolerance for domestic abuse, is committed to supporting victims, etc.... So how can they take that position and still say they will allow Urban to remain as HC, the most visible position within the university? Will they put him on some sort of probation? Vow to educate him? IMHO it is simply not going to be plausible for OSU to reach any decision other than to terminate him.
For those who say, "if he reported it, he is safe", I honestly don't think it is going to make any difference if he reported it. All that means is Gene Smith also loses his job, as will anyone above Smith who was aware of the 2015 allegation. Don't lose sight of the fact that Urban hires and fires his assistants. Could the university have forced him to terminate Smith? Sure. But certainly they did not come to Urban and say "we forbid you from firing Zack Smith over this incident". So he may well have reported it, and perhaps the "investigators" came back to him and said "this is he said/she said" so we are not going to terminate him based on his actions, but if you feel he is toxic you can certainly do what you think is best for your program". So my point is, at some point this comes back to Urban to defend why he kept Smith on staff even though he knew of 2009 and 2015. All of the text messages to Urban's wife, and her responses... that's just piling on additional layers of insulation for the University to rely on when they terminate Urban.
Lastly, as we saw over the weekend, even though Herman may not have been the source for the initial story, there are also rumors out there that another former assistant at OSU, Tim Beck, may have been a source. Beck was a assistant for Meyer at OSU for a few years and is now OC at Texas. Anyone who has an ax to grind with Meyer is going to come out of the woodwork to provide details that may undermine any denials Urban may make.
So, IMHO, the only way Urban can keep his job is if he truly did not know of anything other than '09 and '15, was kept completely in the dark by Gene Smith as to any 2015 investigation, never heard anything from his wife relative to the texts, never had an assistant tell him Smith was toxic... and OSU is willing to suffer the embarrassment of admitting they were aware of two incidents of alleged domestic abuse, were willing to keep the alleged abuser and are now willing to keep the people who made the decision to keep the alleged abuser.

Yup - because it will be written by a local PR firm.

 

[Lyons212]

Meyer is going to take a negotiated settlement and Ohio State will make sure he does not look too bad. He knows he is tainted, recruiting will be more difficult than it has to be at Ohio State, thus time to move on. Meyer gets hired by LSU in November 2018 for 5 years $40 million. They won't care about Meyer's baggage.

 

[interrobang]

You don't set a short time limit on an investigation if you don't already know the outcome.

Now, that outcome could go either way, but I'd give it a 90% chance of Meyer returning with no suspension

 

[78SweetRevenge]

Meyer is going to take a negotiated settlement and Ohio State will make sure he does not look too bad. He knows he is tainted, recruiting will be more difficult than it has to be at Ohio State, thus time to move on. Meyer gets hired by LSU in November 2018 for 5 years $40 million. They won't care about Meyer's baggage.

I really don't think recruiting is going to be difficult because of this. It's like people saying Penn State would never be the same. Kids will still want to go to play for Meyer because he wins and can get them to the next level

 

[Obliviax]

funny what happens when a school's administration asks the press to give them some time to research what has happened, thus allowing them to make an educated decision, while the targets are on administrative leave.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

I don't know if they will fire him or not, but if they don't they won't ever be able to claim the high moral ground on any other issue for a long, long, time, and this will pertain to every department in the university.

 

[Lyons212]

I really don't think recruiting is going to be difficult because of this. It's like people saying Penn State would never be the same. Kids will still want to go to play for Meyer because he wins and can get them to the next level

Keep in mind, PSU cleaned house and is only now getting recruiting back to an elite level. I am not saying that recruiting at Ohio State will stink, I think they go from a top 1 to 3 class most years to a top 10 to 15 every year. It only takes a couple of recruits to make a difference in the class. Meyer will no longer have a huge talent edge on everybody else. When the kitchen starts getting hot, Meyer leaves.