FC: Penn State plans "report card" on frats

[Pardlion]

special board meeting set for june 2nd to discuss drastic measures and things that arent being done on any college campus. Get ready for an insane overreaction from psu here. Probably going to mandate an adult is watching over fraternity events at all times.

Will Surma be there?

 

[bjf1991]

Not so simple. Your plan is to disassociate from an organization where every member is associated with the university and will continue to be associated with the university. ALL their members will continue to use campus facilities and can attend all campus events.

You want to cut funding. What funding?

LOL

You are an entertaining little douchetard....... but don't push it.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

How would this impact THON? That's the one thing PSU's IFC does pretty well. Would this nuke it and give 'common' PSU students more of an opportunity to participate?

 

[bjf1991]

special board meeting set for june 2nd to discuss drastic measures and things that arent being done on any college campus. Get ready for an insane overreaction from psu here. Probably going to mandate an adult is watching over fraternity events at all times.

https://trustees.psu.edu/agenda/schedulejune22017.html

Of course, the horse has already left the barn.

"Leadership"

Now its time to try to save Sims' and Barron's ass

 

[Art]

Not so simple. Your plan is to disassociate from an organization where every member is associated with the university and will continue to be associated with the university. ALL their members will continue to use campus facilities and can attend all campus events.

You want to cut funding. What funding?

Whatever funding exists. I assume the Interfraternity Council gets some money, but it it doesn't and there is no money flowing to fraternities or organizations that support the, then PSU is ahead of the game.

PSU will never completely eradicate bad behavior by it's students. It can, however, take steps to limit its liability resulting from such actions. PSU couldn't have prevented the tragic death of Tim Piazza, but it could have avoided any liability for it. Short of promulgating a list of draconian rules and permanently stationing 2-3 PSU employees in every frat house, I don't see any alternative.

 

[Art]

How would this impact THON? That's the one thing PSU's IFC does pretty well. Would this nuke it and give 'common' PSU students more of an opportunity to participate?

Reorganize it under different sponsorship. Either that, or carve it out as one exception.

 

[bjf1991]

Reorganize it under different sponsorship. Either that, or carve it out as one exception.

Barron is formulating a plan while we speak:

 

[Mack_Daddy]

LINK: "Buyer's Guide"

THIS WILL GO DOWN ON YOUR PERMANENT RECORD...

 

[Keyser Soze 16801]

Bravo to this:

http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/commentary/close-down-all-fraternities-20170515.html

"Penn State president Eric Barron set off a firestorm in Happy Valley last month, following the death of 19-year-old Tim Piazza at the Beta Theta Pi fraternity. The real question, Barron said, isn’t how to regulate fraternities; it’s whether we should have them at all.

He’s right. And the answer is as clear as the Nittany-Blue sky: no. It’s time for Penn State and other universities to close down fraternities, which embody some of the worst behaviors of American men.

It’s not just that fraternity members are more likely than other male students to commit sexual assault or indulge in binge drinking, which led to Piazza’s death and criminal charges against 18 of his Beta Theta Pi brothers. It’s that fraternities teach men that they must degrade women — and debase themselves — to cement their tough-guy bona fides."

 

[jerseylion109]

penn tried to shut down fraternities and they just go secret societies with no rules instead.

 

[PSU_Nut]

All who would further sissify Penn State like Barron need to go.

Because having kids die from hazing is such a wonderful thing.

 

[PSU_Nut]

i think the frats are going to see how this goes for maybe a year...if its terrible, then they will all look to separate and go independent

They won't because if they go independent they lose their national charter and likely their house. How many are willing to do that?

 

[LafayetteBear]

They won't because if they go independent they lose their national charter and likely their house. How many are willing to do that?

Plenty of national fraternities are now allowing chapters to go without local university recognition. The bigger issue is zoning.

 

[Lyons212]

penn tried to shut down fraternities and they just go secret societies with no rules instead.

In that scenario, PSU had absolutely zero liability for the frats actions, I think PSU could live with that. Question is, could the frats?

 

[voltz99]

In that scenario, PSU had absolutely zero liability for the frats actions, I think PSU could live with that. Question is, could the frats?

The frats will do fine if they are smart. At Colorado every fraternity is underground and they had their biggest rush ever with 1600 students going through. PSU frats can do the same. No more GPA requirements. They can rush anyone and have rush whenever they want. They can take two pledge classes a semester and summer rush if they want. PSU will have no say. Will PSU live with that?

The fraternities need to start shifting the liability to everyone but themselves. They simply need to stop providing the alcohol and let the students that attend their parties provide their own. That shifts liability to the individuals. There are plenty of parties outside of fraternities. The frats can go to other parties in mass. They also need to move their parties away from their house. They can have a party at the football stadium every other Saturday.

 

[Lyons212]

The frats will do fine if they are smart. At Colorado every fraternity is underground and they had their biggest rush ever with 1600 students going through. PSU frats can do the same. No more GPA requirements. They can rush anyone and have rush whenever they want. They can take two pledge classes a semester and summer rush if they want. PSU will have no say. Will PSU live with that?

The fraternities need to start shifting the liability to everyone but themselves. They simply need to stop providing the alcohol and let the students that attend their parties provide their own. That shifts liability to the individuals. There are plenty of parties outside of fraternities. The frats can go to other parties in mass. They also need to move their parties away from their house. They can have a party at the football stadium every other Saturday.

Why should PSU care if they are no longer affiliated with the Greeks? Keep in mind, wherever you have the party, it is bound by the rules of the owner of the property and local/state laws. Having it offsite might mean, no more underage drinking at the party, which also means a lot less sexual assaults. PSU could live without arrangement, frats might not based upon the statistics.

 

[voltz99]

Why should PSU care if they are no longer affiliated with the Greeks? Keep in mind, wherever you have the party, it is bound by the rules of the owner of the property and local/state laws. Having it offsite might mean, no more underage drinking at the party, which also means a lot less sexual assaults. PSU could live without arrangement, frats might not based upon the statistics.

Why does any school affiliate with the Greeks? Got me. Ask the schools. At Colorado they are begging the fraternities to come back under their control.

Having it offsite might mean no more underage drinking? Keep dreaming. Let me know when college students stop drinking and start caring about rules. Having it offsite simply shifts the risk to someone else. Having the party offsite and BYO will shift almost all the risk. The parties will go on and the frats will cut their risk.

 

[Art]

The frats will do fine if they are smart. At Colorado every fraternity is underground and they had their biggest rush ever with 1600 students going through. PSU frats can do the same. No more GPA requirements. They can rush anyone and have rush whenever they want. They can take two pledge classes a semester and summer rush if they want. PSU will have no say. Will PSU live with that?

The fraternities need to start shifting the liability to everyone but themselves. They simply need to stop providing the alcohol and let the students that attend their parties provide their own. That shifts liability to the individuals. There are plenty of parties outside of fraternities. The frats can go to other parties in mass. They also need to move their parties away from their house. They can have a party at the football stadium every other Saturday.

Not quite. If there is underage drinking, the person who owns or rents the property is liable. If they party outside of the stadium, they expose themselves to arrest for underage drinking or public intoxication.

Regardless, PSU's first priority in cases like this should be to eliminate or minimize its liability for the consequences of stupidity which, in the end, can't be cured.

 

[voltz99]

Not quite. If there is underage drinking, the person who owns or rents the property is liable. If they party outside of the stadium, they expose themselves to arrest for underage drinking or public intoxication.

Regardless, PSU's first priority in cases like this should be to eliminate or minimize its liability for the consequences of stupidity which, in the end, can't be cured.

You are making my point for me. Like I said, the fraternities have to move the parties away from their homes. They won't own the property where the party is held. The fraternity does not expose themselves to anything outside the stadium as long as they do not provide the alcohol. The INDIVIDUALS at the event expose themselves. If someone organizes a party with 500 people and they provide the food, entertainment and the party is BYO then the underage individuals at the party are breaking the law and the party organizer is in the clear.

 

[bjf1991]

You are making my point for me. Like I said, the fraternities have to move the parties away from their homes. They won't own the property where the party is held. The fraternity does not expose themselves to anything outside the stadium as long as they do not provide the alcohol. The INDIVIDUALS at the event expose themselves. If someone organizes a party with 500 people and they provide the food, entertainment and the party is BYO then the underage individuals at the party are breaking the law and the party organizer is in the clear.

If you took:

"what you don't know"

and multiplied it by

"what you think you know - that isn't so"

You'd have a figure that would make Infinity look like a small number.

 

[Art]

You are making my point for me. Like I said, the fraternities have to move the parties away from their homes. They won't own the property where the party is held. The fraternity does not expose themselves to anything outside the stadium as long as they do not provide the alcohol. The INDIVIDUALS at the event expose themselves. If someone organizes a party with 500 people and they provide the food, entertainment and the party is BYO then the underage individuals at the party are breaking the law and the party organizer is in the clear.

No, the fraternity is not exposed if a bunch of brothers drink outside of the stadium, but the brother are. I'm sure that will go over really well with them. And I'll repeat this one more time: if underage drinking takes place at a house or other venue, the owner of that property is liable. The fraternity as organizer may be off the hook, but I'm sure everyone will open their doors to them given the potential consequences.

 

[bjf1991]

No, the fraternity is not exposed if a bunch of brothers drink outside of the stadium, but the brother are. I'm sure that will go over really well with them. And I'll repeat this one more time: if underage drinking takes place at a house or other venue, the owner of that property is liable. The fraternity as organizer may be off the hook, but I'm sure everyone will open their doors to them given the potential consequences.

Votzy's wiring is short circuited

 

[mgkpsu]

yeah i actually agree that doing this is kind of a lose lose situation for psu. kid gets hurt in a "bad" frat...why werent they kicked out?

Kid gets hurt in a good frat...."penn state lied to us"

I really think the school and frats should work together to separate themselves at this point. Im not calling for an end to greek life but it may be better for everyone involved to put some distance there.

Please, please, please, for everything that is holy and not, get it through your head once and for all that NO National Fraternity will associate with any group that is not University-recognized, and NO rag-tag local group could provide means for funding and infrastructure. The Greek community, which had a good run, can either play ball under the University's new rules, or fade away.

 

[Lion Lineage]

The frats will do fine if they are smart. At Colorado every fraternity is underground and they had their biggest rush ever with 1600 students going through. PSU frats can do the same. No more GPA requirements. They can rush anyone and have rush whenever they want. They can take two pledge classes a semester and summer rush if they want. PSU will have no say. Will PSU live with that?

The fraternities need to start shifting the liability to everyone but themselves. They simply need to stop providing the alcohol and let the students that attend their parties provide their own. That shifts liability to the individuals. There are plenty of parties outside of fraternities. The frats can go to other parties in mass. They also need to move their parties away from their house. They can have a party at the football stadium every other Saturday.

Looks like universities can punish students for joining unrecognized organizations:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2016/5/6/college-sanctions-clubs-greeklife/

I don't see why a university can't say if you're caught joining an unrecognized social organization, you're subject to disciplinary action.

 

[jerseylion109]

Please, Please Please look up University of Colorado- Boulder. The frats are still recognized, they are just not part of the school.

 

[voltz99]

Looks like universities can punish students for joining unrecognized organizations:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2016/5/6/college-sanctions-clubs-greeklife/

I don't see why a university can't say if you're caught joining an unrecognized social organization, you're subject to disciplinary action.

ONLY at private schools. I think BYU can punish students for having sex.


Public schools are different. Students are protected by FReedom of Association.

You don't see why a school can't say if your caught joining an unrecognized organization you are subject to discipline? THe Constitution is why. Any student at a public school can join any off campus organization, church, religion, private club, political party, etc and public schools have no say. If they are caught breaking the law then they are subject to local, state, and federal laws. AT that point a university can punish the individuals who broke the law. Your plan is to punish them for joining which is ILLEGAL.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Please, please, please, for everything that is holy and not, get it through your head once and for all that NO National Fraternity will associate with any group that is not University-recognized,

The above statement (particularly the introductory portion), is pretty funny, but it is simply wrong. There's an entertaining irony in someone stating something that is factually incorrect, and doubling down by telling you to "get it through your head once and for all." LOL.....

 

[Lion Lineage]

ONLY at private schools. I think BYU can punish students for having sex.


Public schools are different. Students are protected by FReedom of Association.

You don't see why a school can't say if your caught joining an unrecognized organization you are subject to discipline? THe Constitution is why. Any student at a public school can join any off campus organization, church, religion, private club, political party, etc and public schools have no say. If they are caught breaking the law then they are subject to local, state, and federal laws. AT that point a university can punish the individuals who broke the law. Your plan is to punish them for joining which is ILLEGAL.

Okay. So then the only realistic option open is for public schools to become unaffiliated with frats and let them exist off campus with no recognition by the universities. Then the frats and their international chapters take on all the risk of fraternity activities: providing underage students with alcohol, hazing, the sexual assaults that occur at frats, etc. Students who want to join can and the universities aren't open to any liability for whatever occurs at non-university sanctioned events occurring on private property by organizations not affiliated in any way with the university. Means the IFC on campuses would have to go to - no need for them anymore.

 

[voltz99]

Okay. So then the only realistic option open is for public schools to become unaffiliated with frats and let them exist off campus with no recognition by the universities. Then the frats and their international chapters take on all the risk of fraternity activities: providing underage students with alcohol, hazing, the sexual assaults that occur at frats, etc. Students who want to join can and the universities aren't open to any liability for whatever occurs at non-university sanctioned events occurring on private property by organizations not affiliated in any way with the university. Means the IFC on campuses would have to go to - no need for them anymore.

Sounds good until the fraternities start shifting their parties away from the property that they own/rent and make their parties BYO. At that point they shift the liability to the students that attend the parties and the owners/renters of the properties.

Ever been to a college party at a football stadium, apartment complex, dorm, private house(non fraternity), elks, moose, church, fop, fire hall, ect? I have been to all.

 

[Lion Lineage]

Sounds good until the fraternities start shifting their parties away from the property that they own/rent and make their parties BYO. At that point they shift the liability to the students that attend the parties and the owners/renters of the properties.

Ever been to a college party at a football stadium, apartment complex, dorm, private house(non fraternity), elks, moose, church, fop, fire hall, ect? I have been to all.

So what. It's still not the problem of the universities, and that's the point. Kids already throw parties off campus at rental properties. How would this be any different. A university is there to educate, not babysit a bunch of drunks. Besides, if they move the party outside of the frat., it's not their party anymore, and you know how frats love to send out invites, etc. So I doubt that would happen. The frats will still want to party at their houses and at other frat houses.

 

[mn78psu83]

Besides, if they move the party outside of the frat., it's not their party anymore, and you know how frats love to send out invites, etc. So I doubt that would happen. The frats will still want to party at their houses and at other frat houses.

Salient point.

 

[lein]

Never quite got the University having some sort of recognizing or sanctioning of Frats to begin with. I can understand if they use campus resources but aren't the houses privately owned and occupied by people over the age of consent?

Does the University also feel compelled to recognize the Lions Club? The local American Legion Post? How about the Kiwanas? Or do frats get some money from the University for some reason?

 

[lurkerlion]

Never quite got the University having some sort of recognizing or sanctioning of Frats to begin with. I can understand if they use campus resources but aren't the houses privately owned and occupied by people over the age of consent?

Does the University also feel compelled to recognize the Lions Club? The local American Legion Post? How about the Kiwanas? Or do frats get some money from the University for some reason?

The overriding factor that many are missing is the role of fraternity life in student recruitment. I am sure that demlion and others will say bullcrap or worse, but this is a real issue if unspoken among administrators.

Bricks and mortar are no longer necessary. Therefore, what will bring students to campus sit their butt in an auditorium lecture? For some, not all, the idea of college life may include joining or partying at a fraternity. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but talk to a 17 year old kid and try to figure out what will get him to tell you what attracts him to go to a particular college. I have no idea what percentage, but an "active social life" with a fraternity will be important to some.

Remember, colleges are not just competing with other campuses, they are competing with online degree programs. Universities have to figure how to satisfy the desire for "active social life" either with or without fraternities and sororities. OR they may become dinosaurs. Liability issues will definitely disappear if the doors are closed.

 

[Lion Lineage]

The overriding factor that many are missing is the role of fraternity life in student recruitment. I am sure that demlion and others will say bullcrap or worse, but this is a real issue if unspoken among administrators.

Bricks and mortar are no longer necessary. Therefore, what will bring students to campus sit their butt in an auditorium lecture? For some, not all, the idea of college life may include joining or partying at a fraternity. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but talk to a 17 year old kid and try to figure out what will get him to tell you what attracts him to go to a particular college. I have no idea what percentage, but an "active social life" with a fraternity will be important to some.

Remember, colleges are not just competing with other campuses, they are competing with online degree programs. Universities have to figure how to satisfy the desire for "active social life" either with or without fraternities and sororities. OR they may become dinosaurs. Liability issues will definitely disappear if the doors are closed.

If the frats are unaffiliated that doesn't mean they'll go away. So if they continue to exist, albeit completely independent of the university, I don't see how that would affect recruiting. They'll still be there. Kids can still join. It just removes a major liability for the school.