Evangelicals praise Putin

ao5884

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Oct 1, 2019
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My argument on Trump's statement is one argument with two prongs, it is both racist and bigoted and yet haven't refuted either.
As for Lee, historical figures make mistakes and anyone who thinks Lee didn't create much evil and misfortune by his actions is dead wrong. And Grant did say Lee's actions were terrible, and he criticized how Lee conducted the war and how he refused to treat captured black soldiers the same as white soldiers.
Ike is dead wrong when he said the question of secession wasn't settled until 1865. It was settled law the day the constitution was ratified.
Secession was never legal and the traitors themselves knew this for they didn't take their case to the SCOTUS to argue constitutionality, of secession, instead they fired on Fort Sumter.
So you go in worshipping heroes and allow them to do the thinking for you, but I will think for myself.
And the argument that Lee helped in healing the nation afterwards is BS too because he argued against giving blacks the right to vote after the war.
He gave credence to those who wanted to keep blacks as second class citizens.
And you can't excuse Lee by saying he was the product of his times because Longstreet, unlike Lee urged southerners to accept reconstruction and full citizenship for freed slaves.
Then why did you change it 2 separate times?
First it was Norway was white
Then it was Norway is extremely white
Then it became Trump "probably" thought Norway was whiter. Again not my fault you didn't check before you posted.
Grant was so critical about Lee that he invited him to the Whitehouse in 1869. Making Lee the only person ever to have that honor and also have his citizenship revoked. Again...when multiple people that are more intelligent than you disagree with your inaccurate perception of Lee. That should be a red flag for you to re visit the understanding you have on a given subject. Or you can remain ignorant which you obviously like to do given the number of times I've had to educate you on this. Yes historical figures make mistakes.....this would be relevant if it were one person. The reality respect for Lee transcends Republican/Democrat Left/Right Black/White etc.....and yes even North/South. But in Jeffclear land.....they are a just wrong lol.
 
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JeffClear

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Oct 15, 2017
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Then why did you change it 2 separate times?
First it was Norway was white
Then it was Norway is extremely white
Then it became Trump "probably" thought Norway was whiter. Again not my fault you didn't check before you posted.
Grant was so critical about Lee that he invited him to the Whitehouse in 1869. Making Lee the only person ever to have that honor and also have his citizenship revoked. Again...when multiple people that are more intelligent than you disagree with your inaccurate perception of Lee. That should be a red flag for you to re visit the understanding you have on a given subject. Or you can remain ignorant which you obviously like to do given the number of times I've had to educate you on this. Yes historical figures make mistakes.....this would be relevant if it were one person. The reality respect for Lee transcends Republican/Democrat Left/Right Black/White etc.....and yes even North/South. But in Jeffclear land.....they are a just wrong lol.
I never changed my argument that Trump's statement is likely racist.
I say likely because the chance that Trump pulled Norway out of a hat and it had nothing to do with Norwegians being largely stereotypical white people is slim, but not 0.
However, Trump's statement on its face is bigoted and indefensible but for some reason you are trying to.
Trump makes a lot of indefensible statements, why you picked this one to try, I don't know.
As for Lee, I think a lot of people want to like him so they make excuses for him.
But if you look at what he did with a critical eye, one cannot come to any other conclusion that Lee made terrible decisions and did far more harm than good.
Everything he did in service of the confederacy was wrong.
His treatment of black soldiers was highly immoral and wrong.
So when I look at Lee's contribution to the world all the bad stuff he did far outweighs any of the good he did by a long shot.
As for Grant, he clearly expressed his views on Lee's service and he didn't think much of it.
And I don't need Ike's or Roosevelt's views to make up my own mind on what is right and what is wrong.
Especially since Lee has been so whitewashed over the years he became a false myth.
And remember, many people who do terrible things actually believe they are doing the right thing.
I imagine even Hitler believed he was doing the right thing.
I think Putin believes he is doing the right thing.
And I believe Lee, Jeff Davis and the crew all believed they were doing the right thing.
But as it turns out, they were wrong.

And Lee just didn't make the wrong decisions he made the wrong decisions in service of racism and slavery.
You can try to make all the excuses you want but it doesn't change the fact that he fought for slavery and he fought for racism.
 

ao5884

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Oct 1, 2019
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I never changed my argument that Trump's statement is likely racist.
I say likely because the chance that Trump pulled Norway out of a hat and it had nothing to do with Norwegians being largely stereotypical white people is slim, but not 0.
However, Trump's statement on its face is bigoted and indefensible but for some reason you are trying to.
Trump makes a lot of indefensible statements, why you picked this one to try, I don't know.
As for Lee, I think a lot of people want to like him so they make excuses for him.
But if you look at what he did with a critical eye, one cannot come to any other conclusion that Lee made terrible decisions and did far more harm than good.
Everything he did in service of the confederacy was wrong.
His treatment of black soldiers was highly immoral and wrong.
So when I look at Lee's contribution to the world all the bad stuff he did far outweighs any of the good he did by a long shot.
As for Grant, he clearly expressed his views on Lee's service and he didn't think much of it.
And I don't need Ike's or Roosevelt's views to make up my own mind on what is right and what is wrong.
Especially since Lee has been so whitewashed over the years he became a false myth.
And remember, many people who do terrible things actually believe they are doing the right thing.
I imagine even Hitler believed he was doing the right thing.
I think Putin believes he is doing the right thing.
And I believe Lee, Jeff Davis and the crew all believed they were doing the right thing.
But as it turns out, they were wrong.

And Lee just didn't make the wrong decisions he made the wrong decisions in service of racism and slavery.
You can try to make all the excuses you want but it doesn't change the fact that he fought for slavery and he fought for racism.
Nope Lee made his decision to defend his state from what he considered an invader. Every single primary source we have (if you know what those are) confirms this. His decision had nothing to do with a desire to keep slaves or the institution of slavery. He didn't want the war to begin with. Open a book once in a while. Then maybe you would understand why those world leaders Historians and military commanders don't fall in line with your false narrative. You are literally at odds with people that have researched this subject longer than you have been alive. And have multiple published works to back it up. As far as your argument....yes you did change it twice. We can start quoting your actual words of you like. Now your calculating percentages on what Trump likely had as motivation....despite offering no calculations to support those percentages......which is not a surprise.
 
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JeffClear

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Oct 15, 2017
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Nope Lee made his decision to defend his state from what he considered an invader. Every single primary source we have (if you know what those are) confirms this. His decision had nothing to do with a desire to keep slaves or the institution of slavery. He didn't want the war to begin with. Open a book once in a while. Then maybe you would understand why those world leaders Historians and military commanders don't fall in line with your false narrative. You are literally at odds with people that have researched this subject longer than you have been alive. And have multiple published works to back it up. As far as your argument....yes you did change it twice. We can start quoting your actual words of you like. Now your calculating percentages on what Trump likely had as motivation....despite offering no calculations to support those percentages......which is not a surprise.
And Lee was dead wrong. Lee said so himself that he didn't think blacks were ready to be free and said they needed slavery to educate them.
And during the war he enslaved free black soldiers and private citizens that his armies captured.
Even after the war he continued to claim blacks weren't ready to have the right to vote.
At best Lee isn't much different than a Nazi concentration camp guard who claims he was just defending his country or he was just following orders.
Virginia did a terrible thing by seceding to preserve the institution of slavery and Lee was just as terrible to defend its decision.
If he was an honorable man he would have fought for the USA.
But he was not an honorable man.
Everyone can think for themselves and everyone is responsible for their decisions and and one does not blindly follow a group of people, no matter how immoral and illegal their actions are.
And that's what Virginia's decision to secede and go to war was, they were incredibly unjust and illegal.
But I don't believe Lee blindly followed Virginia, he went to war with open eyes and he knew what Virginia was, he was fully aware of its corruption and immorality and the injustice it was inflicting and supported them anyway.
 

ao5884

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Oct 1, 2019
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And Lee was dead wrong. Lee said so himself that he didn't think blacks were ready to be free and said they needed slavery to educate them.
And during the war he enslaved free black soldiers and private citizens that his armies captured.
Even after the war he continued to claim blacks weren't ready to have the right to vote.
At best Lee isn't much different than a Nazi concentration camp guard who claims he was just defending his country or he was just following orders.
Virginia did a terrible thing by seceding to preserve the institution of slavery and Lee was just as terrible to defend its decision.
If he was an honorable man he would have fought for the USA.
But he was not an honorable man.
Everyone can think for themselves and everyone is responsible for their decisions and and one does not blindly follow a group of people, no matter how immoral and illegal their actions are.
And that's what Virginia's decision to secede and go to war was, they were incredibly unjust and illegal.
But I don't believe Lee blindly followed Virginia, he went to war with open eyes and he knew what Virginia was, he was fully aware of its corruption and immorality and the injustice it was inflicting and supported them anyway.
Defending your home is dead wrong? Again EVERY primary source we have confirms that slavery or slaves was not a factor in Lee's choice. It's absolute fact that isn't a subject of debate. Your belief does not change that. As to Virginia re read their articles of secession. You clearly haven't given what you just posted. This is your problem Jeff all you do is post opinions and try to present them as facts. In this case your opinions are refuted by ACTUAL Historians that are experts on lee....but they are all wrong right Jeff? I would love to read your work that refutes their arguments (that are supported by primary sources)...when will it be published? I mean I'm not surprised if I remember correctly you are one of the board lefties tgat still thinks Trump called Neo nazis fine or good people in Charlottesville. But hey when you find a source that supports Lee making his decision because of slaves or slavery let us all know. There are plenty oh PHD Historians that would love a discovery they haven't been able to find.
 
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JeffClear

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Oct 15, 2017
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Defending your home is dead wrong? Again EVERY primary source we have confirms that slavery or slaves was not a factor in Lee's choice. It's absolute fact that isn't a subject of debate. Your belief does not change that. As to Virginia re read their articles of secession. You clearly haven't given what you just posted. This is your problem Jeff all you do is post opinions and try to present them as facts. In this case your opinions are refuted by ACTUAL Historians that are experts on lee....but they are all wrong right Jeff? I would love to read your work that refutes their arguments (that are supported by primary sources)...when will it be published? I mean I'm not surprised if I remember correctly you are one of the board lefties tgat still thinks Trump called Neo nazis fine or good people in Charlottesville. But hey when you find a source that supports Lee making his decision because of slaves or slavery let us all know. There are plenty oh PHD Historians that would love a discovery they haven't been able to find.
It is wrong to defend your home if the people in your home are murderers and traitors.
That's the difference between you and me, you think Lee and the other confederates were right to make war on the USA, I don't.
I think it was incredibly immoral and a terrible choice.
You claim slavery didn't factor into Lee's decision, I say it should have been.
Lee should have rejected secession on its face, but even more so because the secession was to preserve slavery.
The true heroes of Virginia are the ones who fought for the USA against the confederacy and not some brutal slave state government.
They are the men and women of real courage and backbone.
If your best friend was a murderer and rapist you probably think it is ok for you to shoot the police when they come to arrest him.
Because that was what Lee did, Virginia made an illegal decision to leave the Union to preserve slavery and to murder their fellow countrymen and Lee supported them in their decision.
Plus he did a lot of murdering of his own.
Lee is not a man to be admired but reviled.
He should be held out as an example of a monster who pretended to be honorable.
An example of revisionist myth making by a bunch of racists trying to justify the brutality of their ancestors.
The myth of Lee is the south's attempt to polish a turd.
And I interpret the facts the way they are and not clouded by misplaced sentimentality for monsters.