Doors open , then locked ?

bourbon n blues

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Nov 20, 2019
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So it appears the shooter was firing shots for 12 minutes and the school doors remain unlocked. This allowed him to enter .
Then he locked the doors which I heard prevented the police from entering. They supposedly had no breeching tools. 🙄
These guys hear of a sledgehammer?
I posted it prior and will continue to do so, from Greg Ellifritz :
This is looking worse and worse.

They let the guy go for up to 90 minutes because they said they didn't have a key to the classroom door that the killer locked.

This is the prime example why I no longer train police agencies or write articles about best practices in police response. The cops don't care and refuse to learn lessons from past tragedies.

We've long known that cops responding to school shootings need breaching gear. This became apparent after the 2006 Nickel Mines school shooting (link in comments).

I wrote about cops needing breaching tools in the first month I started my website. That article (linked in comments) was in 2012. Since then I have written 18 different articles on my site about the importance of breaching capability for responding cops.

We've known since Columbine (1999) that cops need to make immediate entry to stop the killing. Yet these cops waited for swat.

20+ years of death and tragedy has taught us nothing because most are too lazy to seek understanding.

The problems these cops faced are not new. Ample information is freely available to the officers who want to learn how to best handle these incidents. But cops remain ignorant and their bosses are never held accountable.

You are on your own.

The last line is so true , certain of us know we are on our own.
 
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WPTLION

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On the locked classroom door...one thing I know is they've created locks for these doors teachers can use in the event there is a shooter. These locks make it extremely difficult if not impossible to get in from the outside, they are designed like that on purpose. I used to be on a school board as we were installing this locks I asked the question what happens if the intruder gets in first and locks everyone else out. They didn't have an answer.
 

bourbon n blues

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Nov 20, 2019
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On the locked classroom door...one thing I know is they've created locks for these doors teachers can use in the event there is a shooter. These locks make it extremely difficult if not impossible to get in from the outside, they are designed like that on purpose. I used to be on a school board as we were installing this locks I asked the question what happens if the intruder gets in first and locks everyone else out. They didn't have an answer.
Yeah, many policies have flaws. But they have policies . 🙄
I’m not opposed to those locks, security has levels of course.
 

bourbon n blues

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Those classroom locks are last line of defense type stuff. This guy on a couple levels should never have gotten anywhere close to entering a classroom
Outside 12 minutes with a listed response time of four? Fail.
Doors not locked from the inside while he was outside shooting for 12 minutes? Fail.
Police wait outside over an hour while the shooter is shooting people. Fail.
They've known since Columbine that the longer you wait, the more people will die. But the police don't care, at least the higher ups.
Now let's talk about how ell they do shoot? Many only shoot to qualify. A few are great shooters and former military or sporting enthusiasts. Most aren't. Most gun guys I know have stories about shootings. One involved a PSP officer that had to put down a deer hit by a vehicle. It took multiple shots for him to finally hit a vital area.
Then we had the female officer ( who has been promoted fairly high up in the ranks) who when she was on patrol stopped to help two motorists who appeared to be broken down. They were two black males that over powered her , took her guns, hijacked a trucker and killed him with her gun.
These are the types who make the policy decisions, I am not shytting you.
 
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JR4PSU

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On the locked classroom door...one thing I know is they've created locks for these doors teachers can use in the event there is a shooter. These locks make it extremely difficult if not impossible to get in from the outside, they are designed like that on purpose. I used to be on a school board as we were installing this locks I asked the question what happens if the intruder gets in first and locks everyone else out. They didn't have an answer.
The answer is that the police should have the breaching tools needed to get in quickly. A shooter would not likely have such tools on him. They don't think that far in advance.
 
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JR4PSU

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Outside 12 minutes with a listed response time of four? Fail.
Doors not locked from the inside while he was outside shooting for 12 minutes? Fail.
Police wait outside over an hour while the shooter is shooting people. Fail.
They've known since Columbine that the longer you wait, the more people will die. But the police don't care, at least the higher ups.
Now let's talk about how ell they do shoot? Many only shoot to qualify. A few are great shooters and former military or sporting enthusiasts. Most aren't. Most gun guys I know have stories about shootings. One involved a PSP officer that had to put down a deer hit by a vehicle. It took multiple shots for him to finally hit a vital area.
Then we had the female officer ( who has been promoted fairly high up in the ranks) who when she was on patrol stopped to help two motorists who appeared to be broken down. They were two black males that over powered her , took her guns, hijacked a trucker and killed him with her gun.
These are the types who make the policy decisions, I am not shytting you.
I can verify such a deer story.

I hit a deer and it was injured (broken pelvis) and couldn't move. It lay on the side of the road with its head up watching everything around it. I called the police and a PA State Trooper shows up. He asks everyone to stand back and he takes out his revolver and shoots the deer in the body. As he's walking back to me, I see the deer with its head still up looking around in obvious shock and pain. I tell the officer that he did not kill the deer. He goes back and shoots three more times in the body. As he's walking back to me, again the deer is still not dead. I tell the officer again, he's looking at me, not the deer. So he goes back, this time shoots the deer in the head. Dead. Finally. That poor deer was in absolute misery and shock and it took this officer 5 shots over about five minutes to kill the deer. Awful.
 

bourbon n blues

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I can verify such a deer story.

I hit a deer and it was injured (broken pelvis) and couldn't move. It lay on the side of the road with its head up watching everything around it. I called the police and a PA State Trooper shows up. He asks everyone to stand back and he takes out his revolver and shoots the deer in the body. As he's walking back to me, I see the deer with its head still up looking around in obvious shock and pain. I tell the officer that he did not kill the deer. He goes back and shoots three more times in the body. As he's walking back to me, again the deer is still not dead. I tell the officer again, he's looking at me, not the deer. So he goes back, this time shoots the deer in the head. Dead. Finally. That poor deer was in absolute misery and shock and it took this officer 5 shots over about five minutes to kill the deer. Awful.
Many are awful shots and under stress they don't get better.
 
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Hotshoe

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I can verify such a deer story.

I hit a deer and it was injured (broken pelvis) and couldn't move. It lay on the side of the road with its head up watching everything around it. I called the police and a PA State Trooper shows up. He asks everyone to stand back and he takes out his revolver and shoots the deer in the body. As he's walking back to me, I see the deer with its head still up looking around in obvious shock and pain. I tell the officer that he did not kill the deer. He goes back and shoots three more times in the body. As he's walking back to me, again the deer is still not dead. I tell the officer again, he's looking at me, not the deer. So he goes back, this time shoots the deer in the head. Dead. Finally. That poor deer was in absolute misery and shock and it took this officer 5 shots over about five minutes to kill the deer. Awful.
They would probably do the same stupidity to a horse. You always shoot an animal in the head at close range.
 

JR4PSU

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They would probably do the same stupidity to a horse. You always shoot an animal in the head at close range.
He told me that they are trained to shoot in the center of body mass. I guess they aren't trained specifically for euthanizing animals.
 

bourbon n blues

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Well, this certainly isn't looking good. If some of the information is correct, it's a really bad look for the authorities. We need more government!
My security friend has verified the police got their kids out ignoring the others and waited. The guy who was filling me in an Afghanistan.
Edit, he saw an interview with the sheriff.
 

Ski

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May 29, 2001
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On the locked classroom door...one thing I know is they've created locks for these doors teachers can use in the event there is a shooter. These locks make it extremely difficult if not impossible to get in from the outside, they are designed like that on purpose. I used to be on a school board as we were installing this locks I asked the question what happens if the intruder gets in first and locks everyone else out. They didn't have an answer.

Expensive maybe, but electric/manual locks on school doors that can be opened/closed remotely/wirelessly. Incident happens, boom - all the doors are locked with a single remote command.
 

Ski

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May 29, 2001
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Outside 12 minutes with a listed response time of four? Fail.
Doors not locked from the inside while he was outside shooting for 12 minutes? Fail.
Police wait outside over an hour while the shooter is shooting people. Fail.
They've known since Columbine that the longer you wait, the more people will die. But the police don't care, at least the higher ups.
Now let's talk about how ell they do shoot? Many only shoot to qualify. A few are great shooters and former military or sporting enthusiasts. Most aren't. Most gun guys I know have stories about shootings. One involved a PSP officer that had to put down a deer hit by a vehicle. It took multiple shots for him to finally hit a vital area.
Then we had the female officer ( who has been promoted fairly high up in the ranks) who when she was on patrol stopped to help two motorists who appeared to be broken down. They were two black males that over powered her , took her guns, hijacked a trucker and killed him with her gun.
These are the types who make the policy decisions, I am not shytting you.

Even when properly trained and well practiced humans fail when put in life threatening (their own) situations. You really don't know how someone will react under stress until they are under stress. We all think we would like to react heroically in certain situations, but it is easy for inner fear, cowardice or selfishness to render you useless.

Not the same, but similar due to it being a human reaction to stress, but I see this at pool all the time. Guys that can play well in practice can't execute the same in a match and deteriorate even more in a big tournament. The more stress they are under, the less well they are able to play. All you can do is practice until things become automatic for you and rely on consistently doing what you practiced if placed in that situation.
 
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bourbon n blues

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Nov 20, 2019
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Even when properly trained and well practiced humans fail when put in life threatening (their own) situations. You really don't know how someone will react under stress until they are under stress. We all think we would like to react heroically in certain situations, but it is easy for inner fear, cowardice or selfishness to render you useless.

Not the same, but similar due to it being a human reaction to stress, but I see this at pool all the time. Guys that can play well in practice can't execute the same in a match and deteriorate even more in a big tournament. The more stress they are under, the less well they are able to play. All you can do is practice until things become automatic for you and rely on consistently doing what you practiced if placed in that situation.
Very true.
 

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