Do Not Get Rid Of Your Gas Vehicle Yet

psuted

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Nov 26, 2010
28,431
24,658
1
Do Not Get Rid Of Your Gas Vehicle Yet
an interesting read...

Dr. Jay Lehr and Tom Harris, Jan 15, 2022

The utility companies have thus far had little to say about the alarming cost projections to operate electric vehicles (EVs) or the increased rates that they will be required to charge their customers. It is not just the total amount of electricity required, but the transmission lines and fast charging capacity that must be built at existing filling stations. Neither wind nor solar can support any of it. Electric vehicles will never become the mainstream of transportation!

The problems with electric vehicles (EVs), we showed that they were too expensive, too unreliable, rely on materials mined in China and other unfriendly countries, and require more electricity than the nation can afford. In this second part, we address other factors that will make any sensible reader avoid EVs like the plague. EV Charging Insanity.

In order to match the 2,000 cars that a typical filling station can service in a busy 12 hours, an EV charging station would require 600, 50-watt chargers at an estimated cost of $24 million and a supply of 30 megawatts of power from the grid. That is enough to power 20,000 homes. No one likely thinks about the fact that it can take 30 minutes to 8 hours to recharge a vehicle between empty or just topping off. What are the drivers doing during that time?

ICSC-Canada board member New Zealand-based consulting engineer Bryan Leyland describes why installing electric car charging stations in a city is impractical:

“If you’ve got cars coming into a petrol station, they would stay for an average of five minutes. If you’ve got cars coming into an electric charging station, they would be at least 30 minutes, possibly an hour, but let’s say its 30 minutes. So that’s six times the surface area to park the cars while they’re being charged. So, multiply every petrol station in a city by six. Where are you going to find the place to put them?”

The government of the United Kingdom is already starting to plan for power shortages caused by the charging of thousands of EVs. Starting in June 2022, the government will restrict the time of day you can charge your EV battery. To do this, they will employ smart meters that are programmed to automatically switch off EV charging in peak times to avoid potential blackouts.

In particular, the latest UK chargers will be pre-set to not function during 9-hours of peak loads, from 8 am to 11 am (3-hours), and 4 pm to 10 pm (6-hours). Unbelievably, the UK technology decides when and if an EV can be charged, and even allows EV batteries to be drained into the UK grid if required. Imagine charging your car all night only to discover in the morning that your battery is flat since the state took the power back. Better keep your gas-powered car as a reliable and immediately available backup! While EV charging will be an attractive source of revenue generation for the government, American citizens will be up in arms.

Used Car Market

The average used EV will need a new battery before an owner can sell it, pricing them well above used internal combustion cars. The average age of an American car on the road is 12 years. A 12-year-old EV will be on its third battery. A Tesla battery typically costs $10,000 so there will not be many 12-year-old EVs on the road. Good luck trying to sell your used green fairy tale electric car!

Tuomas Katainen, an enterprising Finish Tesla owner, had an imaginative solution to the battery replacement problem—he blew up his car! New York City-based Insider magazine reported (December 27,2021): “The shop told him the faulty battery needed to be replaced, at a cost of about $22,000. In addition to the hefty fee, the work would need to be authorized by Tesla… Rather than shell out half the cost of a new Tesla to fix an old one, Katainen decided to do something different… The demolition experts from the YouTube channel Pommijätkät (Bomb Dudes) strapped 66 pounds of high explosives to the car and surrounded the area with slow-motion cameras…the 14 hotdog-shaped charges erupt into a blinding ball of fire, sending a massive shock wave rippling out from the car… The videos of the explosion have a combined 5 million views.”

We understand that the standard Tesla warranty does not cover “damage resulting from intentional actions,” like blowing the car up for a YouTube video.

EVs Per Block In Your Neighborhood

A home charging system for a Tesla requires a 75-amp service. The average house is equipped with 100-amp service. On most suburban streets the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla. For half the homes on your block to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly overloaded.

Batteries

Although the modern lithium-ion battery is four times better than the old lead-acid battery, gasoline holds 80 times the energy density. The great lithium battery in your cell phone weighs less than an ounce while the Tesla battery weighs 1,000 pounds. And what do we get for this huge cost and weight? We get a car that is far less convenient and less useful than cars powered by internal combustion engines. Bryan Leyland explained why:

“When the Model T came out, it was a dramatic improvement on the horse and cart. The electric car is a step backward into the equivalence of an ordinary car with a tiny petrol tank that takes half an hour to fill. It offers nothing in the way of convenience or extra facilities.”

Our Conclusion

The electric automobile will always be around in a niche market likely never exceeding 10% of the cars on the road. All automobile manufacturers are investing in their output and all will be disappointed in their sales. Perhaps they know this and will manufacture just what they know they can sell. This is certainly not what President Biden or California Governor Newsom are planning for. However, for as long as the present government is in power, they will be pushing the electric car as another means to run our lives. We have a chance to tell them exactly what we think of their expensive and dangerous plans when we go to the polls in November of 2022.

Dr. Jay Lehr is a Senior Policy Analyst with the International Climate Science Coalition and former Science Director of The Heartland Institute. He is an internationally renowned scientist, author, and speaker who has testified before Congress on dozens of occasions on environmental issues and consulted with nearly every agency of the national government and many foreign countries. After graduating from Princeton University at the age of 20 with a degree in Geological Engineering, he received the nation’s first Ph.D. in Groundwater Hydrology from the University of Arizona. He later became executive director of the National Association of Groundwater Scientists and Engineers.

Tom Harris is Executive Director of the Ottawa, Canada-based International Climate Science Coalition, and a policy advisor to The Heartland Institute. He has 40 years of experience as a mechanical engineer/project manager, science and technology communications professional, technical trainer, and S&T advisor to a former Opposition Senior Environment Critic in Canada’s Parliament.

You do not need to have an advanced degree in mathematics to understand the term “Overload”! The average person, no matter where you live, can quickly identify the political feel-good sensation that is being attempted by those short sighted individuals who are promoting the EV revolution….Vehicle manufacturers, Charging station builders, Transmission Line contractors, Battery producers ... etc. “It’s Magic” ... and you are saving the planet by creating less pollution as you get rid of your gas burning vehicle and take out a five-year loan to pay for the shiny new $60,000 electric car. No more fill-ups at the service station and the global warming is solved. You can now sit back and imagine the new polar ice formations that are providing a safe environment for the Polar Bears, Seals, Penguins that we all adore. We have done our part saving humanity…..and you can see the smile on little Greta Thunberg’s face! BUT WAIT….why are we losing power at our house?

Well the short answer is…. We failed to understand that our electrical grid reached max capacity and was overloaded when all of the EV’s were plugged in tonight at the same time. The next short answer is ... where do you think the energy came from to supply the grid in the first place? It sure was not from Wind or Solar… nor from any other alternate energy source we use which, when all combined, only provides 7% of today’s use demand. It was from the traditional combustible resource called Hydrocarbons!

Until we discover a non-hydrocarbon energy source that is efficient and safe, GET OVER IT….we are committed to Oil & Gas!

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

Abraham Lincoln
 

SR108

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2004
16,565
6,359
1
Do Not Get Rid Of Your Gas Vehicle Yet
an interesting read...

Dr. Jay Lehr and Tom Harris, Jan 15, 2022

The utility companies have thus far had little to say about the alarming cost projections to operate electric vehicles (EVs) or the increased rates that they will be required to charge their customers. It is not just the total amount of electricity required, but the transmission lines and fast charging capacity that must be built at existing filling stations. Neither wind nor solar can support any of it. Electric vehicles will never become the mainstream of transportation!

The problems with electric vehicles (EVs), we showed that they were too expensive, too unreliable, rely on materials mined in China and other unfriendly countries, and require more electricity than the nation can afford. In this second part, we address other factors that will make any sensible reader avoid EVs like the plague. EV Charging Insanity.

In order to match the 2,000 cars that a typical filling station can service in a busy 12 hours, an EV charging station would require 600, 50-watt chargers at an estimated cost of $24 million and a supply of 30 megawatts of power from the grid. That is enough to power 20,000 homes. No one likely thinks about the fact that it can take 30 minutes to 8 hours to recharge a vehicle between empty or just topping off. What are the drivers doing during that time?

ICSC-Canada board member New Zealand-based consulting engineer Bryan Leyland describes why installing electric car charging stations in a city is impractical:

“If you’ve got cars coming into a petrol station, they would stay for an average of five minutes. If you’ve got cars coming into an electric charging station, they would be at least 30 minutes, possibly an hour, but let’s say its 30 minutes. So that’s six times the surface area to park the cars while they’re being charged. So, multiply every petrol station in a city by six. Where are you going to find the place to put them?”

The government of the United Kingdom is already starting to plan for power shortages caused by the charging of thousands of EVs. Starting in June 2022, the government will restrict the time of day you can charge your EV battery. To do this, they will employ smart meters that are programmed to automatically switch off EV charging in peak times to avoid potential blackouts.

In particular, the latest UK chargers will be pre-set to not function during 9-hours of peak loads, from 8 am to 11 am (3-hours), and 4 pm to 10 pm (6-hours). Unbelievably, the UK technology decides when and if an EV can be charged, and even allows EV batteries to be drained into the UK grid if required. Imagine charging your car all night only to discover in the morning that your battery is flat since the state took the power back. Better keep your gas-powered car as a reliable and immediately available backup! While EV charging will be an attractive source of revenue generation for the government, American citizens will be up in arms.

Used Car Market

The average used EV will need a new battery before an owner can sell it, pricing them well above used internal combustion cars. The average age of an American car on the road is 12 years. A 12-year-old EV will be on its third battery. A Tesla battery typically costs $10,000 so there will not be many 12-year-old EVs on the road. Good luck trying to sell your used green fairy tale electric car!

Tuomas Katainen, an enterprising Finish Tesla owner, had an imaginative solution to the battery replacement problem—he blew up his car! New York City-based Insider magazine reported (December 27,2021): “The shop told him the faulty battery needed to be replaced, at a cost of about $22,000. In addition to the hefty fee, the work would need to be authorized by Tesla… Rather than shell out half the cost of a new Tesla to fix an old one, Katainen decided to do something different… The demolition experts from the YouTube channel Pommijätkät (Bomb Dudes) strapped 66 pounds of high explosives to the car and surrounded the area with slow-motion cameras…the 14 hotdog-shaped charges erupt into a blinding ball of fire, sending a massive shock wave rippling out from the car… The videos of the explosion have a combined 5 million views.”

We understand that the standard Tesla warranty does not cover “damage resulting from intentional actions,” like blowing the car up for a YouTube video.

EVs Per Block In Your Neighborhood

A home charging system for a Tesla requires a 75-amp service. The average house is equipped with 100-amp service. On most suburban streets the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla. For half the homes on your block to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly overloaded.

Batteries

Although the modern lithium-ion battery is four times better than the old lead-acid battery, gasoline holds 80 times the energy density. The great lithium battery in your cell phone weighs less than an ounce while the Tesla battery weighs 1,000 pounds. And what do we get for this huge cost and weight? We get a car that is far less convenient and less useful than cars powered by internal combustion engines. Bryan Leyland explained why:

“When the Model T came out, it was a dramatic improvement on the horse and cart. The electric car is a step backward into the equivalence of an ordinary car with a tiny petrol tank that takes half an hour to fill. It offers nothing in the way of convenience or extra facilities.”

Our Conclusion

The electric automobile will always be around in a niche market likely never exceeding 10% of the cars on the road. All automobile manufacturers are investing in their output and all will be disappointed in their sales. Perhaps they know this and will manufacture just what they know they can sell. This is certainly not what President Biden or California Governor Newsom are planning for. However, for as long as the present government is in power, they will be pushing the electric car as another means to run our lives. We have a chance to tell them exactly what we think of their expensive and dangerous plans when we go to the polls in November of 2022.

Dr. Jay Lehr is a Senior Policy Analyst with the International Climate Science Coalition and former Science Director of The Heartland Institute. He is an internationally renowned scientist, author, and speaker who has testified before Congress on dozens of occasions on environmental issues and consulted with nearly every agency of the national government and many foreign countries. After graduating from Princeton University at the age of 20 with a degree in Geological Engineering, he received the nation’s first Ph.D. in Groundwater Hydrology from the University of Arizona. He later became executive director of the National Association of Groundwater Scientists and Engineers.

Tom Harris is Executive Director of the Ottawa, Canada-based International Climate Science Coalition, and a policy advisor to The Heartland Institute. He has 40 years of experience as a mechanical engineer/project manager, science and technology communications professional, technical trainer, and S&T advisor to a former Opposition Senior Environment Critic in Canada’s Parliament.

You do not need to have an advanced degree in mathematics to understand the term “Overload”! The average person, no matter where you live, can quickly identify the political feel-good sensation that is being attempted by those short sighted individuals who are promoting the EV revolution….Vehicle manufacturers, Charging station builders, Transmission Line contractors, Battery producers ... etc. “It’s Magic” ... and you are saving the planet by creating less pollution as you get rid of your gas burning vehicle and take out a five-year loan to pay for the shiny new $60,000 electric car. No more fill-ups at the service station and the global warming is solved. You can now sit back and imagine the new polar ice formations that are providing a safe environment for the Polar Bears, Seals, Penguins that we all adore. We have done our part saving humanity…..and you can see the smile on little Greta Thunberg’s face! BUT WAIT….why are we losing power at our house?

Well the short answer is…. We failed to understand that our electrical grid reached max capacity and was overloaded when all of the EV’s were plugged in tonight at the same time. The next short answer is ... where do you think the energy came from to supply the grid in the first place? It sure was not from Wind or Solar… nor from any other alternate energy source we use which, when all combined, only provides 7% of today’s use demand. It was from the traditional combustible resource called Hydrocarbons!

Until we discover a non-hydrocarbon energy source that is efficient and safe, GET OVER IT….we are committed to Oil & Gas!

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

Abraham Lincoln
But,but,but, global warming er climate change!!
 

rumble_lion

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2011
23,147
5,653
1
Do Not Get Rid Of Your Gas Vehicle Yet
an interesting read...

Dr. Jay Lehr and Tom Harris, Jan 15, 2022

The utility companies have thus far had little to say about the alarming cost projections to operate electric vehicles (EVs) or the increased rates that they will be required to charge their customers. It is not just the total amount of electricity required, but the transmission lines and fast charging capacity that must be built at existing filling stations. Neither wind nor solar can support any of it. Electric vehicles will never become the mainstream of transportation!

The problems with electric vehicles (EVs), we showed that they were too expensive, too unreliable, rely on materials mined in China and other unfriendly countries, and require more electricity than the nation can afford. In this second part, we address other factors that will make any sensible reader avoid EVs like the plague. EV Charging Insanity.

In order to match the 2,000 cars that a typical filling station can service in a busy 12 hours, an EV charging station would require 600, 50-watt chargers at an estimated cost of $24 million and a supply of 30 megawatts of power from the grid. That is enough to power 20,000 homes. No one likely thinks about the fact that it can take 30 minutes to 8 hours to recharge a vehicle between empty or just topping off. What are the drivers doing during that time?

ICSC-Canada board member New Zealand-based consulting engineer Bryan Leyland describes why installing electric car charging stations in a city is impractical:

“If you’ve got cars coming into a petrol station, they would stay for an average of five minutes. If you’ve got cars coming into an electric charging station, they would be at least 30 minutes, possibly an hour, but let’s say its 30 minutes. So that’s six times the surface area to park the cars while they’re being charged. So, multiply every petrol station in a city by six. Where are you going to find the place to put them?”

The government of the United Kingdom is already starting to plan for power shortages caused by the charging of thousands of EVs. Starting in June 2022, the government will restrict the time of day you can charge your EV battery. To do this, they will employ smart meters that are programmed to automatically switch off EV charging in peak times to avoid potential blackouts.

In particular, the latest UK chargers will be pre-set to not function during 9-hours of peak loads, from 8 am to 11 am (3-hours), and 4 pm to 10 pm (6-hours). Unbelievably, the UK technology decides when and if an EV can be charged, and even allows EV batteries to be drained into the UK grid if required. Imagine charging your car all night only to discover in the morning that your battery is flat since the state took the power back. Better keep your gas-powered car as a reliable and immediately available backup! While EV charging will be an attractive source of revenue generation for the government, American citizens will be up in arms.

Used Car Market

The average used EV will need a new battery before an owner can sell it, pricing them well above used internal combustion cars. The average age of an American car on the road is 12 years. A 12-year-old EV will be on its third battery. A Tesla battery typically costs $10,000 so there will not be many 12-year-old EVs on the road. Good luck trying to sell your used green fairy tale electric car!

Tuomas Katainen, an enterprising Finish Tesla owner, had an imaginative solution to the battery replacement problem—he blew up his car! New York City-based Insider magazine reported (December 27,2021): “The shop told him the faulty battery needed to be replaced, at a cost of about $22,000. In addition to the hefty fee, the work would need to be authorized by Tesla… Rather than shell out half the cost of a new Tesla to fix an old one, Katainen decided to do something different… The demolition experts from the YouTube channel Pommijätkät (Bomb Dudes) strapped 66 pounds of high explosives to the car and surrounded the area with slow-motion cameras…the 14 hotdog-shaped charges erupt into a blinding ball of fire, sending a massive shock wave rippling out from the car… The videos of the explosion have a combined 5 million views.”

We understand that the standard Tesla warranty does not cover “damage resulting from intentional actions,” like blowing the car up for a YouTube video.

EVs Per Block In Your Neighborhood

A home charging system for a Tesla requires a 75-amp service. The average house is equipped with 100-amp service. On most suburban streets the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla. For half the homes on your block to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly overloaded.

Batteries

Although the modern lithium-ion battery is four times better than the old lead-acid battery, gasoline holds 80 times the energy density. The great lithium battery in your cell phone weighs less than an ounce while the Tesla battery weighs 1,000 pounds. And what do we get for this huge cost and weight? We get a car that is far less convenient and less useful than cars powered by internal combustion engines. Bryan Leyland explained why:

“When the Model T came out, it was a dramatic improvement on the horse and cart. The electric car is a step backward into the equivalence of an ordinary car with a tiny petrol tank that takes half an hour to fill. It offers nothing in the way of convenience or extra facilities.”

Our Conclusion

The electric automobile will always be around in a niche market likely never exceeding 10% of the cars on the road. All automobile manufacturers are investing in their output and all will be disappointed in their sales. Perhaps they know this and will manufacture just what they know they can sell. This is certainly not what President Biden or California Governor Newsom are planning for. However, for as long as the present government is in power, they will be pushing the electric car as another means to run our lives. We have a chance to tell them exactly what we think of their expensive and dangerous plans when we go to the polls in November of 2022.

Dr. Jay Lehr is a Senior Policy Analyst with the International Climate Science Coalition and former Science Director of The Heartland Institute. He is an internationally renowned scientist, author, and speaker who has testified before Congress on dozens of occasions on environmental issues and consulted with nearly every agency of the national government and many foreign countries. After graduating from Princeton University at the age of 20 with a degree in Geological Engineering, he received the nation’s first Ph.D. in Groundwater Hydrology from the University of Arizona. He later became executive director of the National Association of Groundwater Scientists and Engineers.

Tom Harris is Executive Director of the Ottawa, Canada-based International Climate Science Coalition, and a policy advisor to The Heartland Institute. He has 40 years of experience as a mechanical engineer/project manager, science and technology communications professional, technical trainer, and S&T advisor to a former Opposition Senior Environment Critic in Canada’s Parliament.

You do not need to have an advanced degree in mathematics to understand the term “Overload”! The average person, no matter where you live, can quickly identify the political feel-good sensation that is being attempted by those short sighted individuals who are promoting the EV revolution….Vehicle manufacturers, Charging station builders, Transmission Line contractors, Battery producers ... etc. “It’s Magic” ... and you are saving the planet by creating less pollution as you get rid of your gas burning vehicle and take out a five-year loan to pay for the shiny new $60,000 electric car. No more fill-ups at the service station and the global warming is solved. You can now sit back and imagine the new polar ice formations that are providing a safe environment for the Polar Bears, Seals, Penguins that we all adore. We have done our part saving humanity…..and you can see the smile on little Greta Thunberg’s face! BUT WAIT….why are we losing power at our house?

Well the short answer is…. We failed to understand that our electrical grid reached max capacity and was overloaded when all of the EV’s were plugged in tonight at the same time. The next short answer is ... where do you think the energy came from to supply the grid in the first place? It sure was not from Wind or Solar… nor from any other alternate energy source we use which, when all combined, only provides 7% of today’s use demand. It was from the traditional combustible resource called Hydrocarbons!

Until we discover a non-hydrocarbon energy source that is efficient and safe, GET OVER IT….we are committed to Oil & Gas!

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

Abraham Lincoln

What a bunch of fud.

“If you’ve got cars coming into a petrol station, they would stay for an average of five minutes. If you’ve got cars coming into an electric charging station, they would be at least 30 minutes, possibly an hour, but let’s say its 30 minutes. So that’s six times the surface area to park the cars while they’re being charged. So, multiply every petrol station in a city by six. Where are you going to find the place to put them?”
Most EV charging will be done at home.

In reality, 80% of EV charging is done at home—almost always overnight—or while a car is parked during the workday.​
This "story" sounds like it was sponsored by Exxon.
 

rumble_lion

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2011
23,147
5,653
1
Do Not Get Rid Of Your Gas Vehicle Yet
an interesting read...

Dr. Jay Lehr and Tom Harris, Jan 15, 2022

The utility companies have thus far had little to say about the alarming cost projections to operate electric vehicles (EVs) or the increased rates that they will be required to charge their customers. It is not just the total amount of electricity required, but the transmission lines and fast charging capacity that must be built at existing filling stations. Neither wind nor solar can support any of it. Electric vehicles will never become the mainstream of transportation!

The problems with electric vehicles (EVs), we showed that they were too expensive, too unreliable, rely on materials mined in China and other unfriendly countries, and require more electricity than the nation can afford. In this second part, we address other factors that will make any sensible reader avoid EVs like the plague. EV Charging Insanity.

In order to match the 2,000 cars that a typical filling station can service in a busy 12 hours, an EV charging station would require 600, 50-watt chargers at an estimated cost of $24 million and a supply of 30 megawatts of power from the grid. That is enough to power 20,000 homes. No one likely thinks about the fact that it can take 30 minutes to 8 hours to recharge a vehicle between empty or just topping off. What are the drivers doing during that time?

ICSC-Canada board member New Zealand-based consulting engineer Bryan Leyland describes why installing electric car charging stations in a city is impractical:

“If you’ve got cars coming into a petrol station, they would stay for an average of five minutes. If you’ve got cars coming into an electric charging station, they would be at least 30 minutes, possibly an hour, but let’s say its 30 minutes. So that’s six times the surface area to park the cars while they’re being charged. So, multiply every petrol station in a city by six. Where are you going to find the place to put them?”

The government of the United Kingdom is already starting to plan for power shortages caused by the charging of thousands of EVs. Starting in June 2022, the government will restrict the time of day you can charge your EV battery. To do this, they will employ smart meters that are programmed to automatically switch off EV charging in peak times to avoid potential blackouts.

In particular, the latest UK chargers will be pre-set to not function during 9-hours of peak loads, from 8 am to 11 am (3-hours), and 4 pm to 10 pm (6-hours). Unbelievably, the UK technology decides when and if an EV can be charged, and even allows EV batteries to be drained into the UK grid if required. Imagine charging your car all night only to discover in the morning that your battery is flat since the state took the power back. Better keep your gas-powered car as a reliable and immediately available backup! While EV charging will be an attractive source of revenue generation for the government, American citizens will be up in arms.

Used Car Market

The average used EV will need a new battery before an owner can sell it, pricing them well above used internal combustion cars. The average age of an American car on the road is 12 years. A 12-year-old EV will be on its third battery. A Tesla battery typically costs $10,000 so there will not be many 12-year-old EVs on the road. Good luck trying to sell your used green fairy tale electric car!

Tuomas Katainen, an enterprising Finish Tesla owner, had an imaginative solution to the battery replacement problem—he blew up his car! New York City-based Insider magazine reported (December 27,2021): “The shop told him the faulty battery needed to be replaced, at a cost of about $22,000. In addition to the hefty fee, the work would need to be authorized by Tesla… Rather than shell out half the cost of a new Tesla to fix an old one, Katainen decided to do something different… The demolition experts from the YouTube channel Pommijätkät (Bomb Dudes) strapped 66 pounds of high explosives to the car and surrounded the area with slow-motion cameras…the 14 hotdog-shaped charges erupt into a blinding ball of fire, sending a massive shock wave rippling out from the car… The videos of the explosion have a combined 5 million views.”

We understand that the standard Tesla warranty does not cover “damage resulting from intentional actions,” like blowing the car up for a YouTube video.

EVs Per Block In Your Neighborhood

A home charging system for a Tesla requires a 75-amp service. The average house is equipped with 100-amp service. On most suburban streets the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla. For half the homes on your block to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly overloaded.

Batteries

Although the modern lithium-ion battery is four times better than the old lead-acid battery, gasoline holds 80 times the energy density. The great lithium battery in your cell phone weighs less than an ounce while the Tesla battery weighs 1,000 pounds. And what do we get for this huge cost and weight? We get a car that is far less convenient and less useful than cars powered by internal combustion engines. Bryan Leyland explained why:

“When the Model T came out, it was a dramatic improvement on the horse and cart. The electric car is a step backward into the equivalence of an ordinary car with a tiny petrol tank that takes half an hour to fill. It offers nothing in the way of convenience or extra facilities.”

Our Conclusion

The electric automobile will always be around in a niche market likely never exceeding 10% of the cars on the road. All automobile manufacturers are investing in their output and all will be disappointed in their sales. Perhaps they know this and will manufacture just what they know they can sell. This is certainly not what President Biden or California Governor Newsom are planning for. However, for as long as the present government is in power, they will be pushing the electric car as another means to run our lives. We have a chance to tell them exactly what we think of their expensive and dangerous plans when we go to the polls in November of 2022.

Dr. Jay Lehr is a Senior Policy Analyst with the International Climate Science Coalition and former Science Director of The Heartland Institute. He is an internationally renowned scientist, author, and speaker who has testified before Congress on dozens of occasions on environmental issues and consulted with nearly every agency of the national government and many foreign countries. After graduating from Princeton University at the age of 20 with a degree in Geological Engineering, he received the nation’s first Ph.D. in Groundwater Hydrology from the University of Arizona. He later became executive director of the National Association of Groundwater Scientists and Engineers.

Tom Harris is Executive Director of the Ottawa, Canada-based International Climate Science Coalition, and a policy advisor to The Heartland Institute. He has 40 years of experience as a mechanical engineer/project manager, science and technology communications professional, technical trainer, and S&T advisor to a former Opposition Senior Environment Critic in Canada’s Parliament.

You do not need to have an advanced degree in mathematics to understand the term “Overload”! The average person, no matter where you live, can quickly identify the political feel-good sensation that is being attempted by those short sighted individuals who are promoting the EV revolution….Vehicle manufacturers, Charging station builders, Transmission Line contractors, Battery producers ... etc. “It’s Magic” ... and you are saving the planet by creating less pollution as you get rid of your gas burning vehicle and take out a five-year loan to pay for the shiny new $60,000 electric car. No more fill-ups at the service station and the global warming is solved. You can now sit back and imagine the new polar ice formations that are providing a safe environment for the Polar Bears, Seals, Penguins that we all adore. We have done our part saving humanity…..and you can see the smile on little Greta Thunberg’s face! BUT WAIT….why are we losing power at our house?

Well the short answer is…. We failed to understand that our electrical grid reached max capacity and was overloaded when all of the EV’s were plugged in tonight at the same time. The next short answer is ... where do you think the energy came from to supply the grid in the first place? It sure was not from Wind or Solar… nor from any other alternate energy source we use which, when all combined, only provides 7% of today’s use demand. It was from the traditional combustible resource called Hydrocarbons!

Until we discover a non-hydrocarbon energy source that is efficient and safe, GET OVER IT….we are committed to Oil & Gas!

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

Abraham Lincoln


The electric automobile will always be around in a niche market likely never exceeding 10% of the cars on the road.

Hmmm, never exceed 10% eh?

China is the largest automobile market in the world:

Share-wise, despite July showing another strong performance, plugin vehicles hit “only” 27% market share, since the overall passenger car market surged 30%.​

Full electrics (BEVs) alone accounted for 20% of the country’s auto sales last month!​
Europe:

Bernstein Research predicts all of Europe’s BEV sales will capture 14% of the market this year, 27% in 2025 and on to 50.5% in 2030.​
California:

The California New Car Dealers Association (CNCDA) reports that, during the first half of 2022, the overall light-vehicle registrations in California amounted to 853,347 (down by 17.9% year-over-year).​
According to the report, the demand for both new and used vehicles remains strong, but the main issue is on the supply side.​
Meanwhile, plug-in car registrations during the period increased by about 34% year-over-year to 152,749 (estimated), which translates into a record of 17.9% of the total market (compared to 11% a year ago).​
All-electric cars noted outstanding results with 128,855 units (up 59% year-over-year) and 15.1% market share, which is significantly more than conventional hybrids. Not only that. Currently, battery electric cars are above hybrids and plug-in hybrids combined.​
 

rumble_lion

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Aug 7, 2011
23,147
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Shouldn’t the government be leading the charge on this? The base I work on, I’ve seen exactly one EV…… and it’s never moving. It’s always on the one charger they have.

They should but most Congress critters are taking money from the fossil fuel industry.

For example they could convert the entire US postal service over to electric vehicles. Just have Rivian make them a version of the electric delivery van they are selling to Amazon. Of course they announced that the new postal delivery vehicles will mostly be gasoline powered. Even better yet, they will get 8.6 mpg.
 

1Hammers1

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Jan 26, 2014
707
1,335
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What I can't figure out. A 2018 gas powered car is a worthless piece of crap. But carmax and carvana are paying full MSRP for an outdated worthless car that isn't battery powered ?
 
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Ski

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
9,789
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Do Not Get Rid Of Your Gas Vehicle Yet
an interesting read...

Dr. Jay Lehr and Tom Harris, Jan 15, 2022

The utility companies have thus far had little to say about the alarming cost projections to operate electric vehicles (EVs) or the increased rates that they will be required to charge their customers. It is not just the total amount of electricity required, but the transmission lines and fast charging capacity that must be built at existing filling stations. Neither wind nor solar can support any of it. Electric vehicles will never become the mainstream of transportation!

The problems with electric vehicles (EVs), we showed that they were too expensive, too unreliable, rely on materials mined in China and other unfriendly countries, and require more electricity than the nation can afford. In this second part, we address other factors that will make any sensible reader avoid EVs like the plague. EV Charging Insanity.

In order to match the 2,000 cars that a typical filling station can service in a busy 12 hours, an EV charging station would require 600, 50-watt chargers at an estimated cost of $24 million and a supply of 30 megawatts of power from the grid. That is enough to power 20,000 homes. No one likely thinks about the fact that it can take 30 minutes to 8 hours to recharge a vehicle between empty or just topping off. What are the drivers doing during that time?

ICSC-Canada board member New Zealand-based consulting engineer Bryan Leyland describes why installing electric car charging stations in a city is impractical:

“If you’ve got cars coming into a petrol station, they would stay for an average of five minutes. If you’ve got cars coming into an electric charging station, they would be at least 30 minutes, possibly an hour, but let’s say its 30 minutes. So that’s six times the surface area to park the cars while they’re being charged. So, multiply every petrol station in a city by six. Where are you going to find the place to put them?”

The government of the United Kingdom is already starting to plan for power shortages caused by the charging of thousands of EVs. Starting in June 2022, the government will restrict the time of day you can charge your EV battery. To do this, they will employ smart meters that are programmed to automatically switch off EV charging in peak times to avoid potential blackouts.

In particular, the latest UK chargers will be pre-set to not function during 9-hours of peak loads, from 8 am to 11 am (3-hours), and 4 pm to 10 pm (6-hours). Unbelievably, the UK technology decides when and if an EV can be charged, and even allows EV batteries to be drained into the UK grid if required. Imagine charging your car all night only to discover in the morning that your battery is flat since the state took the power back. Better keep your gas-powered car as a reliable and immediately available backup! While EV charging will be an attractive source of revenue generation for the government, American citizens will be up in arms.

Used Car Market

The average used EV will need a new battery before an owner can sell it, pricing them well above used internal combustion cars. The average age of an American car on the road is 12 years. A 12-year-old EV will be on its third battery. A Tesla battery typically costs $10,000 so there will not be many 12-year-old EVs on the road. Good luck trying to sell your used green fairy tale electric car!

Tuomas Katainen, an enterprising Finish Tesla owner, had an imaginative solution to the battery replacement problem—he blew up his car! New York City-based Insider magazine reported (December 27,2021): “The shop told him the faulty battery needed to be replaced, at a cost of about $22,000. In addition to the hefty fee, the work would need to be authorized by Tesla… Rather than shell out half the cost of a new Tesla to fix an old one, Katainen decided to do something different… The demolition experts from the YouTube channel Pommijätkät (Bomb Dudes) strapped 66 pounds of high explosives to the car and surrounded the area with slow-motion cameras…the 14 hotdog-shaped charges erupt into a blinding ball of fire, sending a massive shock wave rippling out from the car… The videos of the explosion have a combined 5 million views.”

We understand that the standard Tesla warranty does not cover “damage resulting from intentional actions,” like blowing the car up for a YouTube video.

EVs Per Block In Your Neighborhood

A home charging system for a Tesla requires a 75-amp service. The average house is equipped with 100-amp service. On most suburban streets the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla. For half the homes on your block to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly overloaded.

Batteries

Although the modern lithium-ion battery is four times better than the old lead-acid battery, gasoline holds 80 times the energy density. The great lithium battery in your cell phone weighs less than an ounce while the Tesla battery weighs 1,000 pounds. And what do we get for this huge cost and weight? We get a car that is far less convenient and less useful than cars powered by internal combustion engines. Bryan Leyland explained why:

“When the Model T came out, it was a dramatic improvement on the horse and cart. The electric car is a step backward into the equivalence of an ordinary car with a tiny petrol tank that takes half an hour to fill. It offers nothing in the way of convenience or extra facilities.”

Our Conclusion

The electric automobile will always be around in a niche market likely never exceeding 10% of the cars on the road. All automobile manufacturers are investing in their output and all will be disappointed in their sales. Perhaps they know this and will manufacture just what they know they can sell. This is certainly not what President Biden or California Governor Newsom are planning for. However, for as long as the present government is in power, they will be pushing the electric car as another means to run our lives. We have a chance to tell them exactly what we think of their expensive and dangerous plans when we go to the polls in November of 2022.

Dr. Jay Lehr is a Senior Policy Analyst with the International Climate Science Coalition and former Science Director of The Heartland Institute. He is an internationally renowned scientist, author, and speaker who has testified before Congress on dozens of occasions on environmental issues and consulted with nearly every agency of the national government and many foreign countries. After graduating from Princeton University at the age of 20 with a degree in Geological Engineering, he received the nation’s first Ph.D. in Groundwater Hydrology from the University of Arizona. He later became executive director of the National Association of Groundwater Scientists and Engineers.

Tom Harris is Executive Director of the Ottawa, Canada-based International Climate Science Coalition, and a policy advisor to The Heartland Institute. He has 40 years of experience as a mechanical engineer/project manager, science and technology communications professional, technical trainer, and S&T advisor to a former Opposition Senior Environment Critic in Canada’s Parliament.

You do not need to have an advanced degree in mathematics to understand the term “Overload”! The average person, no matter where you live, can quickly identify the political feel-good sensation that is being attempted by those short sighted individuals who are promoting the EV revolution….Vehicle manufacturers, Charging station builders, Transmission Line contractors, Battery producers ... etc. “It’s Magic” ... and you are saving the planet by creating less pollution as you get rid of your gas burning vehicle and take out a five-year loan to pay for the shiny new $60,000 electric car. No more fill-ups at the service station and the global warming is solved. You can now sit back and imagine the new polar ice formations that are providing a safe environment for the Polar Bears, Seals, Penguins that we all adore. We have done our part saving humanity…..and you can see the smile on little Greta Thunberg’s face! BUT WAIT….why are we losing power at our house?

Well the short answer is…. We failed to understand that our electrical grid reached max capacity and was overloaded when all of the EV’s were plugged in tonight at the same time. The next short answer is ... where do you think the energy came from to supply the grid in the first place? It sure was not from Wind or Solar… nor from any other alternate energy source we use which, when all combined, only provides 7% of today’s use demand. It was from the traditional combustible resource called Hydrocarbons!

Until we discover a non-hydrocarbon energy source that is efficient and safe, GET OVER IT….we are committed to Oil & Gas!

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

Abraham Lincoln

 
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Gorki224

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2021
1,834
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Do Not Get Rid Of Your Gas Vehicle Yet
an interesting read...

Dr. Jay Lehr and Tom Harris, Jan 15, 2022

The utility companies have thus far had little to say about the alarming cost projections to operate electric vehicles (EVs) or the increased rates that they will be required to charge their customers. It is not just the total amount of electricity required, but the transmission lines and fast charging capacity that must be built at existing filling stations. Neither wind nor solar can support any of it. Electric vehicles will never become the mainstream of transportation!

The problems with electric vehicles (EVs), we showed that they were too expensive, too unreliable, rely on materials mined in China and other unfriendly countries, and require more electricity than the nation can afford. In this second part, we address other factors that will make any sensible reader avoid EVs like the plague. EV Charging Insanity.

In order to match the 2,000 cars that a typical filling station can service in a busy 12 hours, an EV charging station would require 600, 50-watt chargers at an estimated cost of $24 million and a supply of 30 megawatts of power from the grid. That is enough to power 20,000 homes. No one likely thinks about the fact that it can take 30 minutes to 8 hours to recharge a vehicle between empty or just topping off. What are the drivers doing during that time?

ICSC-Canada board member New Zealand-based consulting engineer Bryan Leyland describes why installing electric car charging stations in a city is impractical:

“If you’ve got cars coming into a petrol station, they would stay for an average of five minutes. If you’ve got cars coming into an electric charging station, they would be at least 30 minutes, possibly an hour, but let’s say its 30 minutes. So that’s six times the surface area to park the cars while they’re being charged. So, multiply every petrol station in a city by six. Where are you going to find the place to put them?”

The government of the United Kingdom is already starting to plan for power shortages caused by the charging of thousands of EVs. Starting in June 2022, the government will restrict the time of day you can charge your EV battery. To do this, they will employ smart meters that are programmed to automatically switch off EV charging in peak times to avoid potential blackouts.

In particular, the latest UK chargers will be pre-set to not function during 9-hours of peak loads, from 8 am to 11 am (3-hours), and 4 pm to 10 pm (6-hours). Unbelievably, the UK technology decides when and if an EV can be charged, and even allows EV batteries to be drained into the UK grid if required. Imagine charging your car all night only to discover in the morning that your battery is flat since the state took the power back. Better keep your gas-powered car as a reliable and immediately available backup! While EV charging will be an attractive source of revenue generation for the government, American citizens will be up in arms.

Used Car Market

The average used EV will need a new battery before an owner can sell it, pricing them well above used internal combustion cars. The average age of an American car on the road is 12 years. A 12-year-old EV will be on its third battery. A Tesla battery typically costs $10,000 so there will not be many 12-year-old EVs on the road. Good luck trying to sell your used green fairy tale electric car!

Tuomas Katainen, an enterprising Finish Tesla owner, had an imaginative solution to the battery replacement problem—he blew up his car! New York City-based Insider magazine reported (December 27,2021): “The shop told him the faulty battery needed to be replaced, at a cost of about $22,000. In addition to the hefty fee, the work would need to be authorized by Tesla… Rather than shell out half the cost of a new Tesla to fix an old one, Katainen decided to do something different… The demolition experts from the YouTube channel Pommijätkät (Bomb Dudes) strapped 66 pounds of high explosives to the car and surrounded the area with slow-motion cameras…the 14 hotdog-shaped charges erupt into a blinding ball of fire, sending a massive shock wave rippling out from the car… The videos of the explosion have a combined 5 million views.”

We understand that the standard Tesla warranty does not cover “damage resulting from intentional actions,” like blowing the car up for a YouTube video.

EVs Per Block In Your Neighborhood

A home charging system for a Tesla requires a 75-amp service. The average house is equipped with 100-amp service. On most suburban streets the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla. For half the homes on your block to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly overloaded.

Batteries

Although the modern lithium-ion battery is four times better than the old lead-acid battery, gasoline holds 80 times the energy density. The great lithium battery in your cell phone weighs less than an ounce while the Tesla battery weighs 1,000 pounds. And what do we get for this huge cost and weight? We get a car that is far less convenient and less useful than cars powered by internal combustion engines. Bryan Leyland explained why:

“When the Model T came out, it was a dramatic improvement on the horse and cart. The electric car is a step backward into the equivalence of an ordinary car with a tiny petrol tank that takes half an hour to fill. It offers nothing in the way of convenience or extra facilities.”

Our Conclusion

The electric automobile will always be around in a niche market likely never exceeding 10% of the cars on the road. All automobile manufacturers are investing in their output and all will be disappointed in their sales. Perhaps they know this and will manufacture just what they know they can sell. This is certainly not what President Biden or California Governor Newsom are planning for. However, for as long as the present government is in power, they will be pushing the electric car as another means to run our lives. We have a chance to tell them exactly what we think of their expensive and dangerous plans when we go to the polls in November of 2022.

Dr. Jay Lehr is a Senior Policy Analyst with the International Climate Science Coalition and former Science Director of The Heartland Institute. He is an internationally renowned scientist, author, and speaker who has testified before Congress on dozens of occasions on environmental issues and consulted with nearly every agency of the national government and many foreign countries. After graduating from Princeton University at the age of 20 with a degree in Geological Engineering, he received the nation’s first Ph.D. in Groundwater Hydrology from the University of Arizona. He later became executive director of the National Association of Groundwater Scientists and Engineers.

Tom Harris is Executive Director of the Ottawa, Canada-based International Climate Science Coalition, and a policy advisor to The Heartland Institute. He has 40 years of experience as a mechanical engineer/project manager, science and technology communications professional, technical trainer, and S&T advisor to a former Opposition Senior Environment Critic in Canada’s Parliament.

You do not need to have an advanced degree in mathematics to understand the term “Overload”! The average person, no matter where you live, can quickly identify the political feel-good sensation that is being attempted by those short sighted individuals who are promoting the EV revolution….Vehicle manufacturers, Charging station builders, Transmission Line contractors, Battery producers ... etc. “It’s Magic” ... and you are saving the planet by creating less pollution as you get rid of your gas burning vehicle and take out a five-year loan to pay for the shiny new $60,000 electric car. No more fill-ups at the service station and the global warming is solved. You can now sit back and imagine the new polar ice formations that are providing a safe environment for the Polar Bears, Seals, Penguins that we all adore. We have done our part saving humanity…..and you can see the smile on little Greta Thunberg’s face! BUT WAIT….why are we losing power at our house?

Well the short answer is…. We failed to understand that our electrical grid reached max capacity and was overloaded when all of the EV’s were plugged in tonight at the same time. The next short answer is ... where do you think the energy came from to supply the grid in the first place? It sure was not from Wind or Solar… nor from any other alternate energy source we use which, when all combined, only provides 7% of today’s use demand. It was from the traditional combustible resource called Hydrocarbons!

Until we discover a non-hydrocarbon energy source that is efficient and safe, GET OVER IT….we are committed to Oil & Gas!

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

Abraham Lincoln
Well, I can't get afford to rid of my gas vehicle because I don't have $50K to buy an EV.
 

rumble_lion

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2011
23,147
5,653
1
This company has it handled! A tow behind battery! I wish I’d thought of this


Global plugin vehicle registrations were up 61% in July 2022 compared to July 2021, reaching 778,000 units. This is the best result ever for a first month of a quarter.

With a strong month in July, plugins represented 14% share of the overall auto market. Full electrics (BEVs) themselves reached 10% share of the market!
 

Obliviax

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2001
109,289
60,125
1
Global plugin vehicle registrations were up 61% in July 2022 compared to July 2021, reaching 778,000 units. This is the best result ever for a first month of a quarter.

With a strong month in July, plugins represented 14% share of the overall auto market. Full electrics (BEVs) themselves reached 10% share of the market!
Sure. Raise gas to $5 a gallon. Just wait until people realize what an environmental problem those batteries are
 

Hotshoe

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2012
27,341
44,266
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What a bunch of fud.

“If you’ve got cars coming into a petrol station, they would stay for an average of five minutes. If you’ve got cars coming into an electric charging station, they would be at least 30 minutes, possibly an hour, but let’s say its 30 minutes. So that’s six times the surface area to park the cars while they’re being charged. So, multiply every petrol station in a city by six. Where are you going to find the place to put them?”
Most EV charging will be done at home.

In reality, 80% of EV charging is done at home—almost always overnight—or while a car is parked during the workday.​
This "story" sounds like it was sponsored by Exxon.
What's fud is you and your ilk have no clue what you're talking about and never have. You have no idea the ecological waste of all these batteries that will not be reused, nor the ecological disaster of mining the rare minerals at a cost far higher than fossil fuels. Your ideas are nothing but green Folly that most certainly will not save the planet. If you want green, it's not found in a battery, it's found in nuclear and hydrogen.
 
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rumble_lion

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Aug 7, 2011
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What's fud is you and your ilk have no clue what you're talking about and never have. You have no idea the ecological waste of all these batteries that will not be reused, nor the ecological disaster of mining the rare minerals at a cost far higher than fossil fuels. Your ideas are nothing but green Folly that most certainly will not save the planet. If you want green, it's not found in a battery, it's found in nuclear and hydrogen.

You have no idea the ecological waste of all these batteries that will not be reused, nor the ecological disaster of mining the rare minerals at a cost far higher than fossil fuels.

Please show us examples of where these batteries are not being recycled.

In one breath you say the batteries will not be recycled and in the next you tell everyone how difficult it is to mine the minerals that are in the battery. Cognitive dissonance at it's best.
 

m.knox

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Aug 20, 2003
108,064
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You have no idea the ecological waste of all these batteries that will not be reused, nor the ecological disaster of mining the rare minerals at a cost far higher than fossil fuels.

Please show us examples of where these batteries are not being recycled.

In one breath you say the batteries will not be recycled and in the next you tell everyone how difficult it is to mine the minerals that are in the battery. Cognitive dissonance at it's best.

BIG RECYCLING will be your next complaint.
 
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Ski

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May 29, 2001
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climate-ev-coal-electric-democrat.jpg
 

psuted

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I just heard something on the news today that residents of the flood areas in Florida were told to stay away from their flooded EV’s because the batteries were exploding.
 
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jferretti

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Jun 11, 2001
4,020
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What a bunch of fud.

“If you’ve got cars coming into a petrol station, they would stay for an average of five minutes. If you’ve got cars coming into an electric charging station, they would be at least 30 minutes, possibly an hour, but let’s say its 30 minutes. So that’s six times the surface area to park the cars while they’re being charged. So, multiply every petrol station in a city by six. Where are you going to find the place to put them?”
Most EV charging will be done at home.

In reality, 80% of EV charging is done at home—almost always overnight—or while a car is parked during the workday.​
This "story" sounds like it was sponsored by Exxon.
These naysayers have a point if you choose to ignore the stated goals of the companies actually manufacturing vehicles. A significant percentage of their fleets will be EV by 2030. The technology to increase charging times and locations, address the storage, dispensing and recycling of batteries, and to ultimately phase out ICE vehicles is already being developed.
 

junior1

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May 29, 2001
6,752
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They should but most Congress critters are taking money from the fossil fuel industry.

For example they could convert the entire US postal service over to electric vehicles. Just have Rivian make them a version of the electric delivery van they are selling to Amazon. Of course they announced that the new postal delivery vehicles will mostly be gasoline powered. Even better yet, they will get 8.6 mpg.
the postal service could convert to all EV if they had the money to do so. I'm sure you're aware that the USPS loses money each year. They wanted to convert to all EV, but couldn't afford it. At some point, the organizations have to come to grips with some fiscal sanity. Maybe if they increased the cost of stamps to $2.50 (just a guess on my part) they'd have enough to do what you suggest
 
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rumble_lion

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Aug 7, 2011
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the postal service could convert to all EV if they had the money to do so. I'm sure you're aware that the USPS loses money each year. They wanted to convert to all EV, but couldn't afford it. At some point, the organizations have to come to grips with some fiscal sanity. Maybe if they increased the cost of stamps to $2.50 (just a guess on my part) they'd have enough to do what you suggest

the postal service could convert to all EV if they had the money to do so.

Congress can approve the money to do so.

I'm sure you're aware that the USPS loses money each year.

That doesn't even make any sense. How make money does the Supreme Court make each year? How about the Navy? NASA?

They wanted to convert to all EV, but couldn't afford it.

They can afford whatever Congress chooses for them to afford.

At some point, the organizations have to come to grips with some fiscal sanity.

It's fiscally insane to commit to buying gasoline for your delivery vehicles for the next 30 years. Just look at Amazon for an example.

Maybe if they increased the cost of stamps to $2.50 (just a guess on my part) they'd have enough to do what you suggest

They don't have increase the cost of stamps by one penny if Congress authorizes payment for the new delivery vehicles.
 

rumble_lion

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Aug 7, 2011
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And the prices on EVs keep going up and up and up.

Sales of EVs keep going up and up and up.

Regardless, CEO Jim Farley previously stated that he believed mass EV adoption would begin as early as 2023, exceeding the automaker’s expectations in that regard. In a recent interview with former engineer and current YouTuber Sandy Munro, Farley also admitted that the world’s EV transition is occurring faster than anyone previously expected, too.​
“It seems to be going much faster than all of us forecasted,” Farley said. “China is now above 20 percent. Europe is too. And it jumped…I mean it’s gone so much faster than people think. So much faster than the charging experience. So much faster than the purchase price. So much faster than you would have predicted.”​
 

junior1

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May 29, 2001
6,752
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the postal service could convert to all EV if they had the money to do so.

Congress can approve the money to do so.

I'm sure you're aware that the USPS loses money each year.

That doesn't even make any sense. How make money does the Supreme Court make each year? How about the Navy? NASA?

They wanted to convert to all EV, but couldn't afford it.

They can afford whatever Congress chooses for them to afford.

At some point, the organizations have to come to grips with some fiscal sanity.

It's fiscally insane to commit to buying gasoline for your delivery vehicles for the next 30 years. Just look at Amazon for an example.

Maybe if they increased the cost of stamps to $2.50 (just a guess on my part) they'd have enough to do what you suggest

They don't have increase the cost of stamps by one penny if Congress authorizes payment for the new delivery vehicles.
Yea, but so far congress - which is already operating at $trillion deficits - doesn’t have any money
 

rumble_lion

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Yea, but so far congress - which is already operating at $trillion deficits - doesn’t have any money

They don't have a vault filled with dollars. So it is correct to state they don't or ever had any dollars. But they do have the ability to create dollars every time they turn a spending bill into law. If they passed a spending bill into law that pays for the post office to purchase EV's for their delivery vehicles, the vehicles will be made and the bank account of the vendor making them will increased by the amount specified in the spending bill.
 

junior1

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May 29, 2001
6,752
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They don't have a vault filled with dollars. So it is correct to state they don't or ever had any dollars. But they do have the ability to create dollars every time they turn a spending bill into law. If they passed a spending bill into law that pays for the post office to purchase EV's for their delivery vehicles, the vehicles will be made and the bank account of the vendor making them will increased by the amount specified in the spending bill.
see that's the logic that has gotten us to a $31 trillion debt, constant budget deficits and 8.5% inflation.
Sure congress can appropriate dollars for whatever they want. But, at some point the taxpayers have to pay for it with actual money. If Congress wants to spend money for EVs then it should have to either raise money via taxes to pay for it or cut something else of equal or greater value from the existing budget.
So, that's why the USPS didn't buy all electric vehicles. In spite of the dire warning of climate disaster that comes almost daily from democrats, when push came to shove, they did not believe it necessary or worthy to spend money they don't have on USPS.
It's kind of like our president claiming that hurricane IAN was stronger because of climate change at the same time he owns a home near the beach in delaware, or Obama, or Kerry, or Bezos. You get the picture.
 

rumble_lion

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Aug 7, 2011
23,147
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see that's the logic that has gotten us to a $31 trillion debt, constant budget deficits and 8.5% inflation.
Sure congress can appropriate dollars for whatever they want. But, at some point the taxpayers have to pay for it with actual money. If Congress wants to spend money for EVs then it should have to either raise money via taxes to pay for it or cut something else of equal or greater value from the existing budget.
So, that's why the USPS didn't buy all electric vehicles. In spite of the dire warning of climate disaster that comes almost daily from democrats, when push came to shove, they did not believe it necessary or worthy to spend money they don't have on USPS.
It's kind of like our president claiming that hurricane IAN was stronger because of climate change at the same time he owns a home near the beach in delaware, or Obama, or Kerry, or Bezos. You get the picture.

Sure congress can appropriate dollars for whatever they want. But, at some point the taxpayers have to pay for it with actual money.

Right. So where does "actual" money come from exactly? How do you think all those dollars we pay our taxes with got created?

If Congress wants to spend money for EVs then it should have to either raise money via taxes to pay for it or cut something else of equal or greater value from the existing budget.

Lets go back in time before the dollar existed. The US government decrees that the dollar is the unit of monetary measure the US citizens shall use and it's the only form of money it will accept for payment of federal taxes. Now how does the US government get dollars? Collecting taxes from it's citizens? That can't happen as no one at the time would have any dollars. They have to spend the dollars into existence before they can collect them for payment of taxes. In fact that is all dollars really are, tax credits issued by the US federal government. When the US government creates dollars it's creating tax credits that can be used to extinguish future tax liabilities. To believe that the US federal government has run out of the ability to issue tax credits is absurd.

First the government creates dollars by spending them and then it destroys some of those dollars by collecting taxes, the remaining belong to us and it's what we have in our bank accounts. Spending comes first and taxes always comes after.

So, that's why the USPS didn't buy all electric vehicles. In spite of the dire warning of climate disaster that comes almost daily from democrats, when push came to shove, they did not believe it necessary or worthy to spend money they don't have on USPS.

No, most of the politicians are bought off by the fossil fuel industry. That's why the decision was made to lock in the US postal service to purchase gasoline for most of their delivery fleet for the next 30 years. The whole "we can't afford" to buy EV's for the postal service is just an excuse they use so people won't vote them out of office.
 

junior1

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
6,752
7,438
1
Sure congress can appropriate dollars for whatever they want. But, at some point the taxpayers have to pay for it with actual money.

Right. So where does "actual" money come from exactly? How do you think all those dollars we pay our taxes with got created?

If Congress wants to spend money for EVs then it should have to either raise money via taxes to pay for it or cut something else of equal or greater value from the existing budget.

Lets go back in time before the dollar existed. The US government decrees that the dollar is the unit of monetary measure the US citizens shall use and it's the only form of money it will accept for payment of federal taxes. Now how does the US government get dollars? Collecting taxes from it's citizens? That can't happen as no one at the time would have any dollars. They have to spend the dollars into existence before they can collect them for payment of taxes. In fact that is all dollars really are, tax credits issued by the US federal government. When the US government creates dollars it's creating tax credits that can be used to extinguish future tax liabilities. To believe that the US federal government has run out of the ability to issue tax credits is absurd.

First the government creates dollars by spending them and then it destroys some of those dollars by collecting taxes, the remaining belong to us and it's what we have in our bank accounts. Spending comes first and taxes always comes after.

So, that's why the USPS didn't buy all electric vehicles. In spite of the dire warning of climate disaster that comes almost daily from democrats, when push came to shove, they did not believe it necessary or worthy to spend money they don't have on USPS.

No, most of the politicians are bought off by the fossil fuel industry. That's why the decision was made to lock in the US postal service to purchase gasoline for most of their delivery fleet for the next 30 years. The whole "we can't afford" to buy EV's for the postal service is just an excuse they use so people won't vote them out of office.
let's agree to disagree on your analysis of money creation and buying things. IMO, obviously not yours, we're in the situation financially today because of just that.
On your point about MOST politicians bought off by fossil fuel industry. Like either you, or 2 lion like to say. Where’s your proof? Most of the politicians in congress and White House are democrats and clearly they don’t have a pro fossil fuel bias
 
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rumble_lion

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let's agree to disagree on your analysis of money creation and buying things. IMO, obviously not yours, we're in the situation financially today because of just that.
On your point about MOST politicians bought off by fossil fuel industry. Like either you, or 2 lion like to say. Where’s your proof? Most of the politicians in congress and White House are democrats and clearly they don’t have a pro fossil fuel bias

let's agree to disagree on your analysis of money creation and buying things.

Ok, but it's kind of a important detail to nail down isn't it? Why don't you explain your alternative method for how dollars are created to me?

MO, obviously not yours, we're in the situation financially today because of just that.

No, we are in the situation today due to global supply chain collapses caused by the Covid pandemic.


On your point about MOST politicians bought off by fossil fuel industry.

I should have been specific - most republican politicians.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...stry-us-lawmakers-campaign-donations-analysis

The oil and gas industry substantially rewards US legislators with campaign donations when they oppose environmental protections, according to a new analysis of congressional votes and political contributions.

https://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-industry-influence-in-the-u-s/

Here’s how it works:

Amount the fossil fuel industry spent during the 113th Congress (2013 & 2014) on contributions to Congress’ campaigns: $42,373,561

Oil, Gas, and Coal lobbying total 2013: $156,776,386

Oil, Gas, and Coal lobbying total 2014 : $151,437,335

TOTAL amount spent by Big Oil, Gas, and Coal in 113th Congress: $350,587,282 ($350 million and change)

TOTAL 2013 & 2014 amount given to fossils in federal production and exploration subsidies: $41,840,275,998 (41.8 billion and change)

(More details on fossil fuel subsidies available here)

Divide total subsidies by total money spent by the industry and you get 119.

$1 in. $119 out. That’s a 11,900% return on political investment. Not bad.

https://www.americanprogress.org/ar...igged-system-hamstring-bidens-climate-agenda/

Oil executives are spending millions of dollars every year to influence decision-makers with the goal of putting their profits and pay above all else. They are standing in the way of real climate action—shortchanging taxpayers—and jeopardizing the health, safety, and security of future generations. The oil and gas industry and their trade associations have spent $55.6 million on lobbying since the beginning of the year alone. In 2020, that number was more than $112 million.

A lot of that money gets spent supporting politicians that champion the cause of the oil industry, even when it’s against their constituents’ interest. Campaign finance data analyzed by Public Citizen found that the 29 members of Congress that issued statements denouncing the Biden administration’s pause on leasing received a combined $13.4 million over their careers from oil and gas interests.
 

junior1

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
6,752
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let's agree to disagree on your analysis of money creation and buying things.

Ok, but it's kind of a important detail to nail down isn't it? Why don't you explain your alternative method for how dollars are created to me?

MO, obviously not yours, we're in the situation financially today because of just that.

No, we are in the situation today due to global supply chain collapses caused by the Covid pandemic.


On your point about MOST politicians bought off by fossil fuel industry.

I should have been specific - most republican politicians.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...stry-us-lawmakers-campaign-donations-analysis

The oil and gas industry substantially rewards US legislators with campaign donations when they oppose environmental protections, according to a new analysis of congressional votes and political contributions.

https://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-industry-influence-in-the-u-s/

Here’s how it works:

Amount the fossil fuel industry spent during the 113th Congress (2013 & 2014) on contributions to Congress’ campaigns: $42,373,561

Oil, Gas, and Coal lobbying total 2013: $156,776,386

Oil, Gas, and Coal lobbying total 2014 : $151,437,335

TOTAL amount spent by Big Oil, Gas, and Coal in 113th Congress: $350,587,282 ($350 million and change)

TOTAL 2013 & 2014 amount given to fossils in federal production and exploration subsidies: $41,840,275,998 (41.8 billion and change)

(More details on fossil fuel subsidies available here)

Divide total subsidies by total money spent by the industry and you get 119.

$1 in. $119 out. That’s a 11,900% return on political investment. Not bad.

https://www.americanprogress.org/ar...igged-system-hamstring-bidens-climate-agenda/

Oil executives are spending millions of dollars every year to influence decision-makers with the goal of putting their profits and pay above all else. They are standing in the way of real climate action—shortchanging taxpayers—and jeopardizing the health, safety, and security of future generations. The oil and gas industry and their trade associations have spent $55.6 million on lobbying since the beginning of the year alone. In 2020, that number was more than $112 million.

A lot of that money gets spent supporting politicians that champion the cause of the oil industry, even when it’s against their constituents’ interest. Campaign finance data analyzed by Public Citizen found that the 29 members of Congress that issued statements denouncing the Biden administration’s pause on leasing received a combined $13.4 million over their careers from oil and gas interests.
I think we're talking around each other on money creation.
Let's go back to the original assertion that the USPS could buy EV if congress appropriated the money. My point was that congress would have to spend money they don't have in order to do that. Then somehow we got on to creating money and my point there was that simply creating money is what has gotten us to 31 trillion in debt. You brought up pandemic, but we've been running deficits and increasing debt since 2000...long before pandemic.
My point is the same. Congress would be spending money they don't have in order to do that. So you're into deficit spending and debt increase.You don't have to explain how the money works in congress. I led a federal lobbying department for 10 years and headed numerous PAC committees for both republican and democrat candidates. I might suggest that if the oil and gas industry had the political pull from their campaign contributions as you suggest, the US would not be paying $4.00 a gallon for gas right now.
 

rumble_lion

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2011
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Yea, but so far congress - which is already operating at $trillion deficits - doesn’t have any money

I'll give you another example of what I'm talking about. Look the current military budget.

Defense Department appropriations legislation for the current fiscal year funded more than $58 billion worth of military projects that the administration did not request, according to a first-of-its-kind Pentagon report.​
Lawmakers’ additions to the fiscal 2022 budget above the president's request included money to respond to disasters and the war in Ukraine and other national priorities, but the extra money also bankrolled billions of dollars in weapons the military did not seek, such as more than $4 billion worth of unrequested warships, many of them built by the constituents of senior appropriators.​

So where did they come up with the extra 58 billion dollars? Did they raise taxes? No, they simply added the spending to the bill and voted on it.

The question I have for you is why can Congress add 58 billion dollars to the defense budget for stuff the Pentagon didn't even ask for yet when it comes time to purchase EVs for the post office we are suddenly "out of dollars"?
 

junior1

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
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I'll give you another example of what I'm talking about. Look the current military budget.

Defense Department appropriations legislation for the current fiscal year funded more than $58 billion worth of military projects that the administration did not request, according to a first-of-its-kind Pentagon report.​
Lawmakers’ additions to the fiscal 2022 budget above the president's request included money to respond to disasters and the war in Ukraine and other national priorities, but the extra money also bankrolled billions of dollars in weapons the military did not seek, such as more than $4 billion worth of unrequested warships, many of them built by the constituents of senior appropriators.​

So where did they come up with the extra 58 billion dollars? Did they raise taxes? No, they simply added the spending to the bill and voted on it.

The question I have for you is why can Congress add 58 billion dollars to the defense budget for stuff the Pentagon didn't even ask for yet when it comes time to purchase EVs for the post office we are suddenly "out of dollars"?
you're missing my point...Congress can add as much money to the president's budget as they want.....
If there are not actual dollars to cover the bill, then either something else gives or we're into deficit spending. Deficit spending leads to debt.
Sure, somebody has to "make" money to cover the deficit. I'm not arguing that.
Now with another point...other than your defense one...the democrats want universal child care, free education and more. If we can just create money (if that's what you're suggesting) then why haven't they just passed bills creating programs. It's just like the USPS example.
Creating money just seems like the modern monetary theory..just spend what you want. According to the MMT theorists, no problems.....unless you run into inflation (oops)
 
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