Day 28: Military analyst says Russians pulling their punches...but God knows what the game plan is

Jerry

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May 29, 2001
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While I support helping Ukraine as much as possible in this conflict, I do see how unwise it was to move the Eastern edge of NATO as far as the Russian border. Certainly, the best way to help turn Russia into the old Soviet Union was to treat them as if they were still the old Soviet Union. It does not justify their invasion, but it does help give them domestic cover/support for trying to put the band back together.

As an American who happens to be an ethnic Pole, I did support moving NATO somewhat East, but there should have been left in place a clear buffer between NATO and Russia in the form of Belarus and Ukraine. I will admit my view may be clouded, as my grandfather returned to Poland and fought against the Russians (and Ukrainians) from 1919-1921 before coming to the United States a second time in 1924 and becoming a full fledged US citizen in 1927.

Regardless of how we got to this point, leaving the Russians go unpunished for their invasion is no longer an option.

Cool family history, Ski. I recall you mentioning your Polish heritage but didn't know about your grandfather. He must have had some fascinating stories to tell.

One of my grandfathers was a Wexford man and joined the IRA as a teenager before leaving Ireland for America. It was actually not clear to me whether he simply left...or fled...one step ahead of a Brit posse.

Re your closing paragraph, a fair amount of punishment has already been doled out to the Russians, and they've also been doing a pretty good job of punishing themselves. The problem is how to punish them without punishing ourselves...or the Ukrainians for that matter. There's been a lot of blowback, and I'm very concerned it's going to get worse.
 
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The Spin Meister

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Nov 27, 2012
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An altered state
While I support helping Ukraine as much as possible in this conflict, I do see how unwise it was to move the Eastern edge of NATO as far as the Russian border. Certainly, the best way to help turn Russia into the old Soviet Union was to treat them as if they were still the old Soviet Union. It does not justify their invasion, but it does help give them domestic cover/support for trying to put the band back together.

As an American who happens to be an ethnic Pole, I did support moving NATO somewhat East, but there should have been left in place a clear buffer between NATO and Russia in the form of Belarus and Ukraine. I will admit my view may be clouded, as my grandfather returned to Poland and fought against the Russians (and Ukrainians) from 1919-1921 before coming to the United States a second time in 1924 and becoming a full fledged US citizen in 1927.

Regardless of how we got to this point, leaving the Russians go unpunished for their invasion is no longer an option.
I am also of Polish heritage. My father’s cousin was born in the states but went to Poland and fought in the resistance against Hitler. Came back after the war. My parents visited Poland twice while it was under Soviet domination....second trip while it was under marshal law declared by a Russian puppet...Jurasylski....and saw just how difficult their lives were.

When a Polish priest was named Pope it was like a national holiday or the birth of a new baby. And watching Solidarnosc drive out the Russians was a miracle.

So it is quite understandable why Poland and the Baltics would beg and plead to be accepted into NATO. Nearly a century of death, murders, oppression, and economic devastation will do that. Too bad if Putin didn’t like it. If they hadn’t joined NATO I have little doubt he would have all of them in his sights.

Belarus and Ukraine are a buffer zone. Or at least was. Belarus is a vassal state there and Putin sent in his storm troopers two years ago to keep his puppet on his strings and put down a popular uprising for freedom. Several NATO countries have said that Ukraine will not be admitted to NATO as they don’t meet the standards for membership so that is a ruse by Putin. He was looking for some reason to justify his empire building.

Putin invaded other countries on false pretenses. This is the THIRD TIME he invaded Ukraine.....after Russia signed a formal agreement to recognize Ukraine as a free and independent country and to respect its borders in return for hundreds of nuclear weapons.

Putin is a dangerous man that must be stopped. If not in Ukraine....where?
 
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WeR0206

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Apr 9, 2014
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2020evidence.org
Our paid Russian propaganda plant is at it again. I am not kidding at all. This is probably one of many websites and social media outlets that you use to spread lies and further divide people. You are bad news.
You’re right. I started this account in like 2012 (posting mainly about the Sandusky scandal) all so that I could get paid ten yrs later to post russian propaganda. And you call me the conspiracy theorist?? The people spreading lies and dividing the people are the msm. Just look at all the lies re: Trump being a Russian agent and divisive rhetoric they spread re: folks who refused to get an experimental shot injected into themselves. Do you look for Russians under your bed at night?
 

The Spin Meister

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2012
23,589
26,886
1
An altered state
You’re right. I started this account in like 2012 (posting mainly about the Sandusky scandal) all so that I could get paid ten yrs later to post russian propaganda. And you call me the conspiracy theorist?? The people spreading lies and dividing the people are the msm. Just look at all the lies re: Trump being a Russian agent and divisive rhetoric they spread re: folks who refused to get an experimental shot injected into themselves. Do you look for Russians under your bed at night?
So you were on ZipRecruiter and got a new job. Congrats!😉
 
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Ski

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May 29, 2001
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Cool family history, Ski. I recall you mentioning your Polish heritage but didn't know about your grandfather. He must have had some fascinating stories to tell.

One of my grandfathers was a Wexford man and joined the IRA as a teenager before leaving Ireland for America. It was actually not clear to me whether he simply left...or fled...one step ahead of a Brit posse.

Re your closing paragraph, a fair amount of punishment has already been doled out to the Russians, and they've also been doing a pretty good job of punishing themselves. The problem is how to punish them without punishing ourselves...or the Ukrainians for that matter. There's been a lot of blowback, and I'm very concerned it's going to get worse.

I wish I could have heard those stories, but my grandfather did not have a happy ending. His death came 15 years before I was born. It is a strange feeling coming from an old lineage. When my mother was born my grandfather was almost 49 and I was born when my mother was in her 30's, so I am alive today, but my grandfather was born only 19 years after the end of the US Civil War. It is a similar story on my father's side.

Anyway, after the last partition of Poland in 1795 it ceased to be an independent nation. My grandparents were born under the rule of Austria-Hungary in present day Poland just across from the border with Slovakia. This territory, Galicia, was one of the poorest in Europe.

All 4 of my grandparents came to America a few years after 1900, first going to Chicago and then back east to Pennsylvania. I think it had something to do with Central PA being a lot like the mountainous region of Poland they grew up in. Funny that they would land in Appalachia, so they went from a poor part of Europe to a poor part of America.

My grandfather and his brother ended up in basically a worker's camp in Glen White PA (which no longer exists), near Horseshoe Curve, where they worked on the Gallitzin tunnels. They got married, had kids and he made a living mining while keeping a very small farm.

When WW-I hit, the leadership of Polonia figured that they could get an independent Poland back if they sided with the Allies and provided manpower to fight the war. Recruiting was done in Polish clubs and fraternal organizations across America and thusly my grandfather ended up in Haller's Army. They went off to France in 1918 where they didn't do much and then they were sent by train across Germany to the newly established Poland where they fought off the Russians (in the north) and their Ukrainian allies (in the south) from 1919 to 1921. After a somewhat miraculous victory near Warsaw an independent Poland was assured.

As I mentioned my grandfather returned to America in 1924 and became a citizen in 1927. Like most he eked out a living for his family during the depression. After that WW-II happened. At that point, being in his late 50's going back to Poland to fight was not an option. But he did witness from a distance the Soviet Union sneak attacking a defenseless Poland two weeks after the Germans did. He heard like everyone else about Soviet atrocities in Katyn Forest where 20,000 people from the upper crust of Polish society were murdered. He saw the reports where the Soviets sat back during the battle for Warsaw and let the Germans and Polish Home Army fight it out, destroying 90% of Warsaw, and then the Soviets moved in afterward to set up their puppet Communist government. He like many Poles experienced the loss of family members during the almost 6 years of war only to see the independent Poland he fought for to exist no longer. It was now a Soviet vassal state ruled by the hated (by him) Communists.

My mother said on a Sunday in 1948 he was listening to the news after lunch where they were talking about eastern Europe and the Iron Curtain. I guess he had enough and without saying a word he went downstairs, put a shotgun to his chest and pulled the trigger. Knowing they were Catholics the coroner put down on the death certificate that it was "probably an accident cleaning his gun", but it was suicide. At least that way they would bury him in the part of the cemetery where my grandmother would join him 29 years later.
 

Jerry

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
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I wish I could have heard those stories, but my grandfather did not have a happy ending. His death came 15 years before I was born. It is a strange feeling coming from an old lineage. When my mother was born my grandfather was almost 49 and I was born when my mother was in her 30's, so I am alive today, but my grandfather was born only 19 years after the end of the US Civil War. It is a similar story on my father's side.

Anyway, after the last partition of Poland in 1795 it ceased to be an independent nation. My grandparents were born under the rule of Austria-Hungary in present day Poland just across from the border with Slovakia. This territory, Galicia, was one of the poorest in Europe.

All 4 of my grandparents came to America a few years after 1900, first going to Chicago and then back east to Pennsylvania. I think it had something to do with Central PA being a lot like the mountainous region of Poland they grew up in. Funny that they would land in Appalachia, so they went from a poor part of Europe to a poor part of America.

My grandfather and his brother ended up in basically a worker's camp in Glen White PA (which no longer exists), near Horseshoe Curve, where they worked on the Gallitzin tunnels. They got married, had kids and he made a living mining while keeping a very small farm.

When WW-I hit, the leadership of Polonia figured that they could get an independent Poland back if they sided with the Allies and provided manpower to fight the war. Recruiting was done in Polish clubs and fraternal organizations across America and thusly my grandfather ended up in Haller's Army. They went off to France in 1918 where they didn't do much and then they were sent by train across Germany to the newly established Poland where they fought off the Russians (in the north) and their Ukrainian allies (in the south) from 1919 to 1921. After a somewhat miraculous victory near Warsaw an independent Poland was assured.

As I mentioned my grandfather returned to America in 1924 and became a citizen in 1927. Like most he eked out a living for his family during the depression. After that WW-II happened. At that point, being in his late 50's going back to Poland to fight was not an option. But he did witness from a distance the Soviet Union sneak attacking a defenseless Poland two weeks after the Germans did. He heard like everyone else about Soviet atrocities in Katyn Forest where 20,000 people from the upper crust of Polish society were murdered. He saw the reports where the Soviets sat back during the battle for Warsaw and let the Germans and Polish Home Army fight it out, destroying 90% of Warsaw, and then the Soviets moved in afterward to set up their puppet Communist government. He like many Poles experienced the loss of family members during the almost 6 years of war only to see the independent Poland he fought for to exist no longer. It was now a Soviet vassal state ruled by the hated (by him) Communists.

My mother said on a Sunday in 1948 he was listening to the news after lunch where they were talking about eastern Europe and the Iron Curtain. I guess he had enough and without saying a word he went downstairs, put a shotgun to his chest and pulled the trigger. Knowing they were Catholics the coroner put down on the death certificate that it was "probably an accident cleaning his gun", but it was suicide. At least that way they would bury him in the part of the cemetery where my grandmother would join him 29 years later.

Thanks for sharing that amazing story, Ski!

Poland is a great country. In fact, it took the place of Ireland as the last stronghold of Catholicism in Europe. But now that distinction is slipping away for Poland even as it did for Ireland.

Still, a son of Poland, Pope John Paul II, remains one of the great men of the 20th century. And Poland's historic rise against Soviet tyranny set the stage a decade later for the collapse of the Evil Empire.

About your grandfather's end, my God, it's hard to know how to understand such terrible things. There are so many incomprehensible tragedies in life. I've seen more than one myself.

There's so much despair and suffering in the world. Personally, I think anyone in enough pain to take his own life receives a merciful hearing at the judgment seat of God.
 

PSUEngineer89

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2021
4,113
6,585
1
Very sobering.

Cheers to you two gentlemen.

I wish I could have heard those stories, but my grandfather did not have a happy ending. His death came 15 years before I was born. It is a strange feeling coming from an old lineage. When my mother was born my grandfather was almost 49 and I was born when my mother was in her 30's, so I am alive today, but my grandfather was born only 19 years after the end of the US Civil War. It is a similar story on my father's side.

Anyway, after the last partition of Poland in 1795 it ceased to be an independent nation. My grandparents were born under the rule of Austria-Hungary in present day Poland just across from the border with Slovakia. This territory, Galicia, was one of the poorest in Europe.

All 4 of my grandparents came to America a few years after 1900, first going to Chicago and then back east to Pennsylvania. I think it had something to do with Central PA being a lot like the mountainous region of Poland they grew up in. Funny that they would land in Appalachia, so they went from a poor part of Europe to a poor part of America.

My grandfather and his brother ended up in basically a worker's camp in Glen White PA (which no longer exists), near Horseshoe Curve, where they worked on the Gallitzin tunnels. They got married, had kids and he made a living mining while keeping a very small farm.

When WW-I hit, the leadership of Polonia figured that they could get an independent Poland back if they sided with the Allies and provided manpower to fight the war. Recruiting was done in Polish clubs and fraternal organizations across America and thusly my grandfather ended up in Haller's Army. They went off to France in 1918 where they didn't do much and then they were sent by train across Germany to the newly established Poland where they fought off the Russians (in the north) and their Ukrainian allies (in the south) from 1919 to 1921. After a somewhat miraculous victory near Warsaw an independent Poland was assured.

As I mentioned my grandfather returned to America in 1924 and became a citizen in 1927. Like most he eked out a living for his family during the depression. After that WW-II happened. At that point, being in his late 50's going back to Poland to fight was not an option. But he did witness from a distance the Soviet Union sneak attacking a defenseless Poland two weeks after the Germans did. He heard like everyone else about Soviet atrocities in Katyn Forest where 20,000 people from the upper crust of Polish society were murdered. He saw the reports where the Soviets sat back during the battle for Warsaw and let the Germans and Polish Home Army fight it out, destroying 90% of Warsaw, and then the Soviets moved in afterward to set up their puppet Communist government. He like many Poles experienced the loss of family members during the almost 6 years of war only to see the independent Poland he fought for to exist no longer. It was now a Soviet vassal state ruled by the hated (by him) Communists.

My mother said on a Sunday in 1948 he was listening to the news after lunch where they were talking about eastern Europe and the Iron Curtain. I guess he had enough and without saying a word he went downstairs, put a shotgun to his chest and pulled the trigger. Knowing they were Catholics the coroner put down on the death certificate that it was "probably an accident cleaning his gun", but it was suicide. At least that way they would bury him in the part of the cemetery where my grandmother would join him 29 years later.

Thanks for sharing that amazing story, Ski!

Poland is a great country. In fact, it took the place of Ireland as the last stronghold of Catholicism in Europe. But now that distinction is slipping away for Poland even as it did for Ireland.

Still, a son of Poland, Pope John Paul II, remains one of the great men of the 20th century. And Poland's historic rise against Soviet tyranny set the stage a decade later for the collapse of the Evil Empire.

About your grandfather's end, my God, it's hard to know how to understand such terrible things. There are so many incomprehensible tragedies in life. I've seen more than one myself.

There's so much despair and suffering in the world. Personally, I think anyone in enough pain to take his own life receives a merciful hearing at the judgment seat of God.
 

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