Day 2 - Offically Offical 2022 Big Ten Tournament and B1G+ Technical Support Thread

Psalm 1 guy

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Just FYI for everyone, the penalty point against Hildebrandt was for an illegal cutback and not a full nelson. As I mentioned in another thread, I have seen that called a few times this year. Since there seems to be an emphasis on calling it this year, PSU wrestlers who do a legal variation of a cutback need to be careful they keep the move legal and don't leave their feet. Here is the applicable section from the Rulebook: No. 44—ILLEGAL CUT BACK. Wrestlers are not allowed to use their leg to execute a cut back, regardless of whether the hand is being used. Nos. 45 and 46—ILLEGAL REAR STANDING DOUBLE KNEE KICKBACK. A wrestler shall not leave their feet to block behind both of their opponent’s knees with one or both of their legs, feet or shin bones. Both photos demonstrate an illegal double knee kickback because the wrestler has left both feet in order to collapse behind the knees of the opponent
 

CJFisJoePaII

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Just FYI for everyone, the penalty point against Hildebrandt was for an illegal cutback and not a full nelson. As I mentioned in another thread, I have seen that called a few times this year. Since there seems to be an emphasis on calling it this year, PSU wrestlers who do a legal variation of a cutback need to be careful they keep the move legal and don't leave their feet. Here is the applicable section from the Rulebook: No. 44—ILLEGAL CUT BACK. Wrestlers are not allowed to use their leg to execute a cut back, regardless of whether the hand is being used. Nos. 45 and 46—ILLEGAL REAR STANDING DOUBLE KNEE KICKBACK. A wrestler shall not leave their feet to block behind both of their opponent’s knees with one or both of their legs, feet or shin bones. Both photos demonstrate an illegal double knee kickback because the wrestler has left both feet in order to collapse behind the knees of the opponent

Still don't understand the wording of this rule - "leave your feet" implies jumping into the air with both feet. We used to call this move a variation of a "back trip". You swivel your hip one direction, or the other, step across standing wrestler with near-leg to hip swivel, go to a knee at same time with far knee.... and pull standing wrestler back directly over extended leg. You don't jump into the air - you step across with near leg to hip swivel. I'm not even sure it is possible to "leave your feet" (again this is plural and implies jumping into air - i.e., no feet on the ground... "leaving your feet") when you're essentially holding your opponent in your locked hands.
 

CJFisJoePaII

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Exact same thing he tried in PSU-Iowa Dual. Very difficult to call stalling when a wrestler just keeps diving-in, head-down clinging to a leg and not trying to improve. Burroughs description is perfect - fishing for a stall call, which will make many Refs more reluctant, than more likely, to make a stall call.
 

mcpat

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Art. 7. Baiting an Opponent. When a wrestler displays actions or behavior that are only an attempt to secure a stalling call, technical violation or other violation on the opponent, this shall be penalized as a technical violation.
 

dunkej01

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Exact same thing he tried in PSU-Iowa Dual. Very difficult to call stalling when a wrestler just keeps diving-in, head-down clinging to a leg and not trying to improve. Burroughs description is perfect - fishing for a stall call, which will make many Refs more reluctant, than more likely, to make a stall call.
Its the new iowa style. Push, take bad shots and get the crowd into the refs head.

You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
- Dan Gable
 

Psalm 1 guy

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Still don't understand the wording of this rule - "leave your feet" implies jumping into the air with both feet. We used to call this move a variation of a "back trip". You swivel your hip one direction, or the other, step across standing wrestler with near-leg to hip swivel, go to a knee at same time with far knee.... and pull standing wrestler back directly over extended leg. You don't jump into the air - you step across with near leg to hip swivel. I'm not even sure it is possible to "leave your feet" (again this is plural and implies jumping into air - i.e., no feet on the ground... "leaving your feet") when you're essentially holding your opponent in your locked hands.
Here is the link to the Rulebook. Go to physical page 90 of the document where it also shows photos for illustration purposes: NCAA Wrestling Rulebook 2021-2023 The Rulebook also has a search function where you can enter key words to quickly find what you are looking for. Not specifically directed at only you CJFisJoePall, but for all of us here who post on wrestling rules and rule application/interpretation, we should all copy and paste the applicable section(s) from the Rulebook for the benefit of others. I would have posted the photos from the Rulebook in this case, but my technical skills (or lack thereof) failed me :)
 
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nitlion6

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I don't understand this take.

Iowa sitting guys virtually guaranteed that they wouldn't win. Still, people wanted to see those guys, if at all possible, wrestle as everyone else did. I would rather Riddler wrestle and beat Nick than not wrestle at all. Same with Kem/Star.

The sitting is bad because it's bad for the sport. Now when they do not receive anything more than a lower seed by one or two (if at all), we will almost certainly see more in the future.
Talking about byes resulting in 2 bonus points like MFF.
 

nitlion6

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Its the new iowa style. Push, take bad shots and get the crowd into the refs head.

You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
- Dan Gable
The new Iowa style? Wrestle for the stall call with Iowa fans howling "heeeeeesssss stttttaaaaallllliiiiinnnnnn" has been part of the Iowa offensive attack for decades. A huge difference is under Gable they also offensively attacked trying to score offensive points.
Now, when in a tough match ie Marinelli and Amine it has become push out, push out, push him all the way out and "hesssssss sttttaaalllliiinnng" from fans and Brands.
 
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johnstownsteel

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The two cradles have forevermore spooked DeSanto. DeSanto is afraid to turn the corner to finish because he knows he is going to get cradled. If he keeps shooting he knows Angel will call RBY for stalling, plus RBY can not attack DeSanto.
So what’s the deal with a wrestler screaming? All you have to do is scream to get a stoppage? Soon as the Desanto match Started he cried out for a stoppage and it was given to him. I saw nothing that should have warranted that.
 

nitlion6

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So what’s the deal with a wrestler screaming? All you have to do is scream to get a stoppage? Soon as the Desanto match Started he cried out for a stoppage and it was given to him. I saw nothing that should have warranted that.
He was going to his back and tapped out with a scream for good measure. The back points should have been awarded, at least two of them.
Change the rule to if you puss out on your way to your back the max number of back points should be awarded, 4 college, 3 HS.
 

johnstownsteel

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He was going to his back and tapped out with a scream for good measure. The back points should have been awarded, at least two of them.
Change the rule to if you puss out on your way to your back the max number of back points should be awarded, 4 college, 3 HS.
RBY was going to go cradle there after pulling the leg out and Desanto knew it immediately and yelled out for a stoppage. Right then and there I knew RBY and that cradle is all up in Austin’s cranium. Desanto better “catch” RBY or go off his meds for Nationals because I don’t see him ever beating RBY again.
 

IwasAwful

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More fuel for the fire. Assuming that Lee would have beat Eierman in the final (far from a guarantee I know) the MFF gave PSU probably 2 unearned points.
For Micic the Sea Bass MFF moved him into the 3-4 match. That awarded him a half a point for advancement, 2 points for the MFF, and 4th Place is worth two more points than fifth. So by my math, and I could be wrong, the MFFs at 141 gave Michigan 2.5 more points than PSU and the team score was decided by 1.5 points.
Injuries suck and they rob an awesome tournament and event of some of it’s luster. All that being said Michigan wrestled a perfect tournament. Couldn’t have scripted it better for them. Congrats to them, but I feel really good about Penn States chances in Detroit.
 

nitlion6

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RBY was going to go cradle there after pulling the leg out and Desanto knew it immediately and yelled out for a stoppage. Right then and there I knew RBY and that cradle is all up in Austin’s cranium. Desanto better “catch” RBY or go off his meds for Nationals because I don’t see him ever beating RBY again.
DeSanto is pretty good and could possibly catch RBY, but it would be a helluva fluke. To get another crack at RBY DeSanto needs to deal with Fix first.
Funny, I catch myself laughing outloud picturing TnT attempting to game plan for both of those animals and getting DeSanto to understand and keep seperate each plan.
 

The Kid Twist

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I could see Iowa imploding in two weeks. If all those Seniors start losing on the front side one has to wonder how motivated they will be on the backside. They came back for one thing… a national championship. How motivated will they be going for 3rd, 5th or 7th?
I am afraid there will be a shortage of medical tape and ibuprofen when Iowa gets to Detroit1 Most of the team needs to be drugged and mummified just to get to the mat!
 

johnstownsteel

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I am afraid there will be a shortage of medical tape and ibuprofen when Iowa gets to Detroit1 Most of the team needs to be drugged and mummified just to get to the mat!
I’m not going that far. Lol. I guess Corey Clark doing what he did leaves me apprehensive to say Iowa is out of this thing. Miracles do happen. I’ll say this though, if I had to bet I’d say NCST finishes ahead of Iowa in the team race before I would bet Iowa ahead of PSU.
 

The Kid Twist

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Coulda put the hat on and not looked so much like an outsider. I cant put my finger on it, but that guy’s got some quirks that turn me off.
Like that psychotic 1000yd stare! I was ready to alert law enforcement to make sure he didn't have a gun! I am a Bergen Catholic grad and that really hurts because Shane Griffiths and Robbie Howard are the exact opposite of this nut job!
 

royboy

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Didn't realize until seeing this on BTN but Michigan did not have a single wrestler who finished worse than his seed.

Having 10 wrestlers do as well or better than expected is quite an achievement.

But still the Wolverines won the team title by a very narrow margin. On to the national tournament.
 
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nitlion6

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Didn't realize until seeing this on BTN but Michigan did not have a single wrestler who finished worse than his seed.

Having 10 wrestlers do as well or better than expected is quite an achievement.

But still the Wolverines won the team title by a very narrow margin. On to the national tournament.
Michigan collectively wrestled one helluva nice tournament.
 

donboy6499

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More fuel for the fire. Assuming that Lee would have beat Eierman in the final (far from a guarantee I know) the MFF gave PSU probably 2 unearned points.
For Micic the Sea Bass MFF moved him into the 3-4 match. That awarded him a half a point for advancement, 2 points for the MFF, and 4th Place is worth two more points than fifth. So by my math, and I could be wrong, the MFFs at 141 gave Michigan 2.5 more points than PSU and the team score was decided by 1.5 points.
Injuries suck and they rob an awesome tournament and event of some of it’s luster. All that being said Michigan wrestled a perfect tournament. Couldn’t have scripted it better for them. Congrats to them, but I feel really good about Penn States chances in Detroit.
I feel really good about PSU chances as well.
Michigan collectively wrestled one helluva nice tournament.
They really did. I don’t think one guy on their team had a “bad” tournament.
 

js8793

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I feel really good about PSU chances as well.

They really did. I don’t think one guy on their team had a “bad” tournament.
i'm somewhat a broken record on this, but i think micic had a bad tournament. he confirmed for me that he is not a threat to score points. went 3-2. wins over 10, 13, and 14 seeds (none ranked in intermat's top 33). all of those wins were close. losses to intermat's 18th (5-0 dominant) and 31st ranked wrestlers.

he'll need another bracket implosion and/or miracle backside path to score more than a point for them.
 

donboy6499

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i'm somewhat a broken record on this, but i think micic had a bad tournament. he confirmed for me that he is not a threat to score points. went 3-2. wins over 10, 13, and 14 seeds (none ranked in intermat's top 33). all of those wins were close. losses to intermat's 18th (5-0 dominant) and 31st ranked wrestlers.

he'll need another bracket implosion and/or miracle backside path to score more than a point for them.
See I was going to mention him, but then mid sentence of typing I realized I had no expectations of him and I still will be really shocked if he places at nationals.

I had no expectations of him, and I really have none of Storr. So just me personally, anything they gave beyond 0-2 was a positive.
 

Random4598375

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Still don't understand the wording of this rule - "leave your feet" implies jumping into the air with both feet. We used to call this move a variation of a "back trip". You swivel your hip one direction, or the other, step across standing wrestler with near-leg to hip swivel, go to a knee at same time with far knee.... and pull standing wrestler back directly over extended leg. You don't jump into the air - you step across with near leg to hip swivel. I'm not even sure it is possible to "leave your feet" (again this is plural and implies jumping into air - i.e., no feet on the ground... "leaving your feet") when you're essentially holding your opponent in your locked hands.
This is really confusing. Here is the page with illustrations:
image.png.0d1115a068cef0704dff22218b0ecc17.png
image.png.0d1115a068cef0704dff22218b0ecc17.png


The rule quoted above covers two thing - the illegal cut back in pic 44, which doesn't have to be "leaving the feet", and the illegal double knee kick back in pics 45 (double leg) and 46 (single leg), where "leaving the feet" is what makes it illegal. I think what makes the cutback illegal is the right leg laced in the crotch to pull down the opponent on the hip swivel. To be legal, it needs to be arms in the crotch or around the waist to pull the opponent down with the hip swivel.

I didn't see the move Hildebrandt got called for (BTN was on a different mat at the time...), so I don't know how well this applies to what he did.
 

railbirrd

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Michigan collectively wrestled one helluva nice tournament.
The following is from Trackwrestling's statistics for B1Gs:

Largest seed place difference

Team​
Seed Place Difference​
1​
Minnesota​
17​
2​
Michigan​
13​
2​
Northwestern​
13​
4​
Illinois​
7​
5​
Maryland​
4​
6​
Penn State​
0​
6​
Purdue​
0​
6​
Rutgers​
0​
9​
Ohio State​
-1​
10​
Wisconsin​
-2​
11​
Indiana​
-3​
12​
Iowa​
-6​
13​
Nebraska​
-9​
14​
Michigan State​
-13​
 

railbirrd

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This is really confusing. Here is the page with illustrations:
image.png.0d1115a068cef0704dff22218b0ecc17.png
image.png.0d1115a068cef0704dff22218b0ecc17.png


The rule quoted above covers two thing - the illegal cut back in pic 44, which doesn't have to be "leaving the feet", and the illegal double knee kick back in pics 45 (double leg) and 46 (single leg), where "leaving the feet" is what makes it illegal. I think what makes the cutback illegal is the right leg laced in the crotch to pull down the opponent on the hip swivel. To be legal, it needs to be arms in the crotch or around the waist to pull the opponent down with the hip swivel.

I didn't see the move Hildebrandt got called for (BTN was on a different mat at the time...), so I don't know how well this applies to what he did.
I seem to recall that a (PSU?) wrestler was mentioned on the BTN broadcast as having been called for illegal scissors. Does anyone remember that? And which wrestler it was?
 

RoarLions1

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I find this all very interesting...

The following is from Trackwrestling's statistics for B1Gs:

Largest seed place difference

Team​
Seed Place Difference​
1​
Minnesota​
17​
2​
Michigan​
13​
2​
Northwestern​
13​
4​
Illinois​
7​
5​
Maryland​
4​
6​
Penn State​
0​
6​
Purdue​
0​
6​
Rutgers​
0​
9​
Ohio State​
-1​
10​
Wisconsin​
-2​
11​
Indiana​
-3​
12​
Iowa​
-6​
13​
Nebraska​
-9​
14​
Michigan State​
-13​
As impressive as the Minnesota, Michigan and Northwestern numbers are, the Nebraska results have to be disappointing. My recollection of most Big Ten tournaments is that the home team does better-than-the-seed-predictions, simply due to home-mat advantage.
 

Random4598375

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As impressive as the Minnesota, Michigan and Northwestern numbers are, the Nebraska results have to be disappointing. My recollection of most Big Ten tournaments is that the home team does better-than-the-seed-predictions, simply due to home-mat advantage.
Agreed. Nebraska was the biggest disappointment of the whole tournament. It started with Red's shocking opening round loss to Rooks and went downhill from there, ending with Schultz's failure to secure a B1G title for the home team. I considered Nebraska the 4th best team in the conference, especially as a tournament team instead of a dual team, but they didn't come anywhere close to living up to that.
 

nitlion6

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I seem to recall that a (PSU?) wrestler was mentioned on the BTN broadcast as having been called for illegal scissors. Does anyone remember that? And which wrestler it was?
Edsell. Not sure if it was the first match, but I think it was the Carlson match.
 
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