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It saddens me some to see so much support for this. I'm not on board with bringing the pushout to folkstyle. To me, edge wrestling in college is among the most exciting wrestling you can see. No, it's not in every match, but exhibit A is that glorious sequence in the Hall Valencia match. Exhibit B might as well be Bo's takedown vs Dean, and Exhibit C was Dean's almost takedown against Bo later.

With a pushout, none of those exchanges would have happened. I believe the edge stalling rules are interpreted and enforced inconsistently though, and agree it's not good the way it is (but have no ideas on how to fix it). Push outs are fine in freestyle, but I just don't agree w/ any notion that the styles have to merge over time.
 
I agree. Wrestlers doing nothing but undertook and push is no more exciting than wrestlers stalling by backing to edge and then “circling” (or not). Current rule to penalize (w stall call) blatant backing up is working (more or less ) without rewarding a wrestler who does nothing but push.
 
If you're attacking on the edge and you finish a takedown on the edge in freestyle, you're getting the points for the takedown. If you don't finish the takedown and you've driven your opponent out of bounds under attack, you're scoring the stepout.

Why is this such a hard thing to grasp? It's not like all those edge takedowns would immediately go away.

It's not sumo, because a straight push gets zero points in freestyle and Greco.
 
If you're attacking on the edge and you finish a takedown on the edge in freestyle, you're getting the points for the takedown. If you don't finish the takedown and you've driven your opponent out of bounds under attack, you're scoring the stepout.

Why is this such a hard thing to grasp? It's not like all those edge takedowns would immediately go away.

It's not sumo, because a straight push gets zero points in freestyle and Greco.
I probably don’t understand the push out rule then. Thanks for clarifying
 
If you're attacking on the edge and you finish a takedown on the edge in freestyle, you're getting the points for the takedown. If you don't finish the takedown and you've driven your opponent out of bounds under attack, you're scoring the stepout.

Why is this such a hard thing to grasp? It's not like all those edge takedowns would immediately go away.

It's not sumo, because a straight push gets zero points in freestyle and Greco.
Freestyle continuation rules are cool (and if we could get consistently large enough mats in college, I might consider advocating them in folk), but it's not the same thing as what we saw in Hall vs. Valencia. I'm sorry, but the threat of being called for a step out shuts down action on the edge, unless you're in the process of finishing a shot, you're going to circle and push at the edge, not take a chance at more. Scrambling, and wrestling though positions is not something you see at the edge in free in the same way you see it with the current college rules.
 
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Someone fighting to stay in bounds isn't the kind of action I want to see. This rule doesn't promote action. It forces people to circle. We already have something to do that, it's called stalling. Folk is different for a reason and it's not because it's worse then Free.
 
Like I’ve said many times; until the NCAA mandates that all mats be the same size and all mats have a zone indicated near the edge, I am not in favor of this idea at all.
 
Oh, snip, here they come!

Taylor's club has attracted a number of top young wrestlers, including some who drive in from as far as an hour away to attend practices. Taylor works with the wrestlers along with three-time NAIA national champion Eric Thompson and past Penn State All-American Mark McKnight.

Among Taylor's wrestlers are two sons of Penn State assistant coach Casey Cunningham.

"Our club is really growing quickly -- we have kids who have improved a lot already," he said. "What we are trying to create is a great wrestling environment. It's really exciting to watch the progress these kids are making. We have a really good group. I have a great support team with Eric and Mark working as coaches. We just moved to a new facility and everything is going really well."​
 
To me that is a straight push, and have never seen it not scored.

... well, that isn't a straight push, so no wonder you've never seen it not scored.

Lorenzo fan makes a good point about mat sizes, etc. That could be the natural next step, but then we'll have people complaining about the cost of new mats, etc.

People who don't want a stepout (the actual terminology) are going to come up with ever excuse/reason possible. That's the only sure thing about the stepout debate.
 
Oh, snip, here they come!

Taylor's club has attracted a number of top young wrestlers, including some who drive in from as far as an hour away to attend practices. Taylor works with the wrestlers along with three-time NAIA national champion Eric Thompson and past Penn State All-American Mark McKnight.

Among Taylor's wrestlers are two sons of Penn State assistant coach Casey Cunningham.

"Our club is really growing quickly -- we have kids who have improved a lot already," he said. "What we are trying to create is a great wrestling environment. It's really exciting to watch the progress these kids are making. We have a really good group. I have a great support team with Eric and Mark working as coaches. We just moved to a new facility and everything is going really well."​
I saw some of his young kids wrestling up in age at the PAWF club duals and then saw their MS results down in VA Beach. They are a growing force on the club scene and in a couple of years I won't be surprised if they are battling it out with the top club teams in the country at HS events. A lot of talent in that room.
 
... well, that isn't a straight push, so no wonder you've never seen it not scored.

Lorenzo fan makes a good point about mat sizes, etc. That could be the natural next step, but then we'll have people complaining about the cost of new mats, etc.

People who don't want a stepout (the actual terminology) are going to come up with ever excuse/reason possible. That's the only sure thing about the stepout debate.
1st, I appreciate your work for "our" sport--so thank you. However, I feel I've articulated a good reason to not favor the rule change, and that you're glossing over my argument in favor of an all-too common tendency in this day and age to just assume the "other side" is a bunch of "idiots."

I'm on record for liking both styles, and I'll go on record for liking them because they are different. In college edge rules today, the boundary is a tool that elite wrestlers use to gain an advantage to score, and to do so with offensive action.

Dragging a toe to get the TD is perhaps a little derivative of what we ooooh and aahhh about watching Antonio Brown and OBJ do their thing on Sundays, but you cannot say it's not exciting. Even with larger mats, I'd hesitate to embrace continuation because a td 10 feet from "out of bounds" frankly just doesn't offer the same display of mastery that dragging a toe does, and it's not as satisfying (as a spectator). Also with those calls, I see a lot of inconsistency among freestyle refs about when it's awarded and when it isn't--but subjectivity in free reins supreme. But where it gets really great is when 2 elite guys are toying with the edge to leverage it into points (see examples above). I know the rules haven't been around long, but frankly, it's my favorite thing about folkstyle right now. There's tension on the edge, but also freedom to move and get creative. Dance out for sec to set up a re-attack? Go ahead.

The push out raises the stakes while simultaneously settling for a diluted definition of action. 1st, never let your feet go out while trying to create, or be laughed at for being a folkstyle newb. Next, if you're avoiding TD attempt, be aware that giving up 1 is better than 2, while simultaneously dis-incentivizing any but a few reattack options (Chest wraps are cool!). At the same time, why risk going for a finish against a great scrambler when you can grab the leg and drive out per cowboy's observation? I guess you could call it tactics, but it's absolutely one of my least favorite aspects of freestyle.

Yes, stalling is not consistently called on the edge, it seems like every ref has a different idea on how to interpret the current rules. Can't we find a way to fix that without changing the dynamics of mat action so dramatically, and "reforming" a proud sport that has never been more exciting? Or maybe I'm just seeing the world through all the fun of a blue & white world.
 
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... well, that isn't a straight push, so no wonder you've never seen it not scored.

People who don't want a stepout (the actual terminology) are going to come up with ever excuse/reason possible. That's the only sure thing about the stepout debate.
That IS a straight push-no attempt made once the leg is up to finish a takedown, probably due to the risk of a scramble.

While I have great respect for your knowledge of the sport, just because I disagree with you on the topic doesn't make my observation less valuable than yours. I could say the opposite-those in favor of a folk "step out" rule will come up with every possible "excuse" as to how it would be better, rather than actually making the effort to train the existing referees to call stalling consistently.
 
That IS a straight push-no attempt made once the leg is up to finish a takedown, probably due to the risk of a scramble.

While I have great respect for your knowledge of the sport, just because I disagree with you on the topic doesn't make my observation less valuable than yours. I could say the opposite-those in favor of a folk "step out" rule will come up with every possible "excuse" as to how it would be better, rather than actually making the effort to train the existing referees to call stalling consistently.

I'm not saying your observation is less valuable at all. Neither you or I make the rules and neither you or I make the distinction of what the step out (its proper terminology) is.

I'm explaining that, by rule, what a non-scoring push is. That action is devoid of any leg attack. If there's an action to secure the leg, that is an attack. Further segmenting the attack by pointing out it's no longer an attack if an athlete starts pushing his opponent to the edge is a matter of personal preference.

I've also never said the anti-stepout crowd is a bunch of idiots. Thankfully, most of the interactions I've had here are with people who know and respect the sport - but this country and the nation's folkstyle-only crowd make discussing these points problematic. Context matters, so if my viewpoint comes across as dismissive, it's not the intent, but I've also been in enough forum debates over the years to know the "head in the sand" does exist and will chime in soon enough.

Since the 2013 rule changes, I've watched thousands of international wrestling matches and probably just as many folkstyle matches. To me, the flow of a freestyle match is much better than the flow of a collegiate one.

I'd actually like to pose this to Willie, Nomad or any of the Flo guys who could take the time to analyze the length of their videos. What's the average length of a full-time, seven-minute college folkstyle match and the average length of a full-time six minute freestyle match?

Based on my time with USAW and breaking in their streaming and videos, most folkstyle matches that went the distance in college would be in the 12-14 minute range where freestyle bouts are in the 8-9 minute range, that's including the 30 second break.

Action keeps moving with a stepout, wrestlers can't run and hide on the edge. I hate riding time, but I believe our college style is great, I also think the reinvention of freestyle is also great. I wouldn't want NCAA wrestling rules to change on a whim by an outfit in Switzerland either.

The dragging the toe TD's would still happen. Arbitrary "action" calls on the edge when a wrestler is clearly backing out with 20 seconds to go would be gone.

We take away exciting edge wrestling? Is that what we're worried about? What is the drawback - a serious drawback - in creating a stepout point to keep the wrestling in the center and the wrestling continuing?
 
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I'm not saying your observation is less valuable at all. Neither you or I make the rules and neither you or I make the distinction of what the step out (its proper terminology) is.

I'm explaining that, by rule, what a non-scoring push is. That action is devoid of any leg attack. If there's an action to secure the leg, that is an attack. Further segmenting the attack by pointing out it's no longer an attack if an athlete starts pushing his opponent to the edge is a matter of personal preference.

I've also never said the anti-stepout crowd is a bunch of idiots. Thankfully, most of the interactions I've had here are with people who know and respect the sport - but this country and the nation's folkstyle-only crowd make discussing these points problematic. Context matters, so if my viewpoint comes across as dismissive, it's not the intent, but I've also been in enough forum debates over the years to know the "head in the sand" does exist and will chime in soon enough.

Since the 2013 rule changes, I've watched thousands of international wrestling matches and probably just as many folkstyle matches. To me, the flow of a freestyle match is much better than the flow of a collegiate one.

I'd actually like to pose this to Willie, Nomad or any of the Flo guys who could take the time to analyze the length of their videos. What's the average length of a full-time, seven-minute college folkstyle match and the average length of a full-time six minute freestyle match?

Based on my time with USAW and breaking in their streaming and videos, most folkstyle matches that went the distance in college would be in the 12-14 minute range where freestyle bouts are in the 8-9 minute range, that's including the 30 second break.

Action keeps moving with a stepout, wrestlers can't run and hide on the edge. I hate riding time, but I believe our college style is great, I also think the reinvention of freestyle is also great. I wouldn't want NCAA wrestling rules to change on a whim by an outfit in Switzerland either.

The dragging the toe TD's would still happen. Arbitrary "action" calls on the edge when a wrestler is clearly backing out with 20 seconds to go would be gone.

We take away exciting edge wrestling? Is that what we're worried about? What is the drawback - a serious drawback - in creating a stepout point to keep the wrestling in the center and the wrestling continuing?

Thanks for taking the time for a reasoned response--I should not have suggested you were calling us idiots, but I enjoy having these debates. I'll concede overall, freestyle matches "move" more. And I do enjoy the multitude of scoring opportunities, when freestylers are actually looking for them. Freestyle is better now than at any point in memory, in terms of how the matches "feel." But don't you as a fan hate to see someone content with not even attempting a TD after getting a leg? That's totally lame and boring, even when J'den Cox or JB does it.

Another ball of wax: one thing that has really extended total match time in both disciplines is video review. I know it theoretically brings fairness, but I'm still not sold that things are better now with it. It's brought on this whole lunger mentality to tactics that detract from the actual action more than just about anything I can think of.

When I watch folk though, I want to see the things freestyle has removed: control obviously, but but also the furious scrambling, risk taking, etc that the need for control enables. Riding time point? Meh, I'm not very passionate about that debate, but my favorite folkstylers consistently don't need a puny point to exact their desired income. Not a fan of the rear-standing no reaction time rule either.

I don't see how the "toe drag" has any meaning if you can just chase your guy off the mat and even platform (glad Snyder is OK) to get 2. I also don't see how "action continues" means guys won't change their attack strategy on the edge if their feet/head/etc going out will cost them a point.

Taking away exciting edge wrestling would make me very sad, personally. Is my opinion a worthy reason to base a rule decision on? I dunno, experience tells me no.
 
I saw some of his young kids wrestling up in age at the PAWF club duals and then saw their MS results down in VA Beach. They are a growing force on the club scene and in a couple of years I won't be surprised if they are battling it out with the top club teams in the country at HS events. A lot of talent in that room.
Back to DT’s club. love seeing the coaching tree grow and grow as Cael-style spreads. Needless to say, M2’s color scheme ain’t Black and Gold like some other clubs in the Commonwealth

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I'm not saying your observation is less valuable at all. Neither you or I make the rules and neither you or I make the distinction of what the step out (its proper terminology) is.

I'm explaining that, by rule, what a non-scoring push is. That action is devoid of any leg attack. If there's an action to secure the leg, that is an attack. Further segmenting the attack by pointing out it's no longer an attack if an athlete starts pushing his opponent to the edge is a matter of personal preference.

See, we can't agree any more on what a stepout/pushout is than NCAA refs can on what is action and what is stalling :eek:!

But thanks for the response. I was almost there with you when the debate started, and only against it now after watching high level wrestlers be happy to gain the one rather than the two. Maybe it doesn't happen that much and it is just something I fixated on, but I find it irritating.

Keep up the good work!
 
If they brought in that rule, I would LOVE to see Cael bring in the GIANT mat like the old Iowa coach did in the mid 1970's. Try the push out then!
I don't think Iowa has ever gotten rid of the giant mat. They still speak of it to this day as being the largest regulation sized mat that they use.

CB5F0853.jpg
 
Completely agree with nerfstate on this one. So frustrating when you see a guy with a leg in the air deliberately drive his opponent out for one instead of trying to finish. Which by the way is against the nature of the rule and technically shouldn't even be scored, at least according to a ref I spoke to at a recent youth freestyle tournament. He said the rule exists to initiate action, and the step out point should only be rewarded during action, not from a deliberate push out, which causes the action to stop. Was surprised to hear that since that's all you see at the senior level. Anyone know if he's right?
 
I saw wrestlers penaliz
I don't think Iowa has ever gotten rid of the giant mat. They still speak of it to this day as being the largest regulation sized mat that they use.

CB5F0853.jpg
No no man. That mat from 1975 was ENORMOUS. I don't have the pic, but he ran it out there to keep Oklahoma State from going off the mat, legend has it. I think it was even square, not a circle.
 
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If you live near Bucknell and want to get a look at the kind of high school talent M2 is starting to attract they will be at Bucknell duals Saturday July 7th. A tough summer tournament with teams like Quest, Buxton, Dark Knights and Shutt there last year.
 
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... well, that isn't a straight push, so no wonder you've never seen it not scored.

Lorenzo fan makes a good point about mat sizes, etc. That could be the natural next step, but then we'll have people complaining about the cost of new mats, etc.

People who don't want a stepout (the actual terminology) are going to come up with ever excuse/reason possible. That's the only sure thing about the stepout debate.
This argument, "people are wrong because they're wrong" won't fly. That's not how an honest debate works. You know:: come up with every reason/excuse possible for your side.
 
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If you want action, penalizing for going out of bounds incentivizes action or at least positions wrestlers to engage and be active.
 
What if, instead of "action," I want "wrestling," not out-of-bounds-avoiding.
This is letting perfect get in the way of potentially better. As if the Perry/Delgado edge hugging, you do all the work, I roll out and get a clean start, is desirable.

Never gonna get every single edge staller to wrestle exactly the way we want them to. But if the rule penalizes some of them with points, makes others conform, and makes others vulnerable to attacks in bounds (if they get sloppy while circling away from the edge), that's a good thing.

I'm not saying a pushout is definitely gonna work. I'm saying it's time to run an experiment. Let's see it in some high profile offseason event like Flonats or Super 32 (whose entrants know the rule from FS/GR events). Then we'd get some data, and also see its unintended consequences, good and bad.
 
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