Consider how bad the QB recruiting & coaching has been

AWS1022

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It’s called mismanagement of a player and a high profile position. Franklin and Coach Kirk never trusted the kid and were so afraid of losing more games in the CoVid year. Then a new OC arrives and says your my #2 without even working him out and it’s see ya!

Franklin’s roster management over the last two years is a big red flag. Now we got an issue at LB... at penn state we don’t have LBs. Don’t tell me they’ve been schemed out. You need top notch LBs in today’s CFB and PSU doesn’t have them. This will be a huge topic of discussion in October when the B1G schedule kicks in. Mark it down just like the QB issue we all saw a year ago but then hit in October.
Wow, all this inside info….you must be on the coaching staff.
 

Wallace Breen

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Franklin’s roster management over the last two years is a big red flag. Now we got an issue at LB... at penn state we don’t have LBs. Don’t tell me they’ve been schemed out. You need top notch LBs in today’s CFB and PSU doesn’t have them. This will be a huge topic of discussion in October when the B1G schedule kicks in. Mark it down just like the QB issue we all saw a year ago but then hit in October.
What you are talking about is merely a symptom of Franklin's overarching coaching philosophy. Franklin will always have unbalanced roster due to his philosophy and that roster imbalance will be magnified by his coaching hires, especially given his demonstrated preference for system coordinators (4 of 5, not counting Pry and Rahne who merely ran what their predecessors ran without any adjustments) made worse by the transfer portal. Franklin's biggest flaws are his lack of pragmatism, his arrogance and loyalty to 'his' guys.
 

Marylovesthelions

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If you go back, he played a lot toward the end of 2020's season. Most of it was when we were trying to protect a lead late in the game. We didn't want to throw the ball and had almost no running game. So we put Levis in and ran RPO after RPO. I recall him carrying 3, 4, 5 times in a row in certain games where we were trying to ball-control, move the sticks.

I just looked it up. SC had 99 carries for 482 yards in 2020. Levis had 82 carries for 308 yards (many were short yardage situations).

Contrast that to passing where SC had 251 attempts for a 60.6 completion percentage and 1,883 yards (7.5 YPA)
Will Levis had..............................................55 attempts for a 60 completion percentage and 421 yards (7.7 YPA)

LEADERSHIP. A good QB is the leader of the offense. Several Super Bowl winners were just serviceable passers but great leaders. Levi's led his offense, one designed to run and control the ball. Clifford's leadership skills can be legitimately questioned. Mary would not have broght him back. Spend next season developing a leader and winner. If the Lions repeat 2022, they waste another year. Clifford is not rated among the top 50 QBs. The AD has made Franklin TOO secure. I would have fired him last year when he refused to commit to stay. He feels no responsibility loyalty or remorse for failure. What ever he is, our AD made him so. I like him but not his attitude and coaching results.
 
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AWS1022

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LEADERSHIP. A good QB is the leader of the offense. Several Super Bowl winners were just serviceable passers but great leaders. Levi's led his offense, one designed to run and control the ball. Clifford's leadership skills can be legitimately questioned. Mary would not have broght him back. Spend next season developing a leader and winner. If the Lions repeat 2022, they waste another year. Clifford is not rated among the top 50 QBs. The AD has made Franklin TOO secure. I would have fired him last year when he refused to commit to stay. He feels no responsibility loyalty or remorse for failure. What ever he is, our AD made him so. I like him but not his attitude and coaching results.
You need to have a strong OLine and a good RB for a QB to win solely on his “leadership” skills. Levis wouldn’t have had any more luck than Clifford did at PSU relying on his leadership skills. He might have won the Illinois and Iowa games but he might also have lost the Wiscy and Auburn games. And you have no idea what was going on behind the scenes with your “Franklin refused to commit to stay”. And to say any D-1 coach feels no responsibility loyalty or remorse for failure is absolutely absurd. I guarantee no one takes the losses harder than Franklin, especially not fans on a message board who’s lives aren’t affected in any real way by a loss.
 
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Marylovesthelions

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You need to have a strong OLine and a good RB for a QB to win solely on his “leadership” skills. Levis wouldn’t have had any more luck than Clifford did at PSU relying on his leadership skills. He might have won the Illinois and Iowa games but he might also have lost the Wiscy and Auburn games. And you have no idea what was going on behind the scenes with your “Franklin refused to commit to stay”. And to say any D-1 coach feels no responsibility loyalty or remorse for failure is absolutely absurd. I guarantee no one takes the losses harder than Franklin, especially not fans on a message board who’s lives aren’t affected in any real way by a loss.
If he felt 1% remorse or responsibility for his failure on the field he would have clearly stated at the very beginning had no intention of leavingPenn State and it would no have been really looking for more money to prop up failed performance on the field. I never gave a big raise to an employee who had a subpar performance. I had success leading successful change in the automotive industry. Performance counts and so does attitude. If somebody has a good attitude I work with him a lot longer than with smebody who is arrogant and tries to game the system.
 

AWS1022

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If he felt 1% remorse or responsibility for his failure on the field he would have clearly stated at the very beginning had no intention of leavingPenn State and it would no have been really looking for more money to prop up failed performance on the field. I never gave a big raise to an employee who had a subpar performance. I had success leading successful change in the automotive industry. Performance counts and so does attitude. If somebody has a good attitude I work with him a lot longer than with smebody who is arrogant and tries to game the system.
Again, all guess work on your part. You weren’t involved in the conversations and what was discussed. As far as your “subpar” employee, what if they had way above par years prior to their subpar year….did you give them huge raises during those years so that they weren’t underpaid compared to others doing the same job? He’s not making widgets, he’s handling a lot more than some shift factory worker. I see CEO’s of large corporations getting huge raises after “subpar” years only to bounce back and have huge profits. I seriously doubt you’re qualified to handle billion dollar businesses and multi million dollar contracts.
 

marshall23

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PSU is really no different than any other school. If any school had a third year starter coming back who won 11 games as a sophomore and then had the screwed up Covid season, the coach would have had him #1 on the depth chart (no matter who the coach is). The first string QB’s who lose their starting spots almost always start the season off as QB1….unfortunately our QB2 didn’t stick around to compete for the job. And I watch a lot of college football and I never see any coach who plays their backup QB unless the game is a blow out. No coach is out there bringing backup QB’s into games all season long just to get them quality snaps and it’s unreasonable to expect our coach to do it just in case.
Don't you know that players are relegated to backup roles without so much as the courtesy of a "workout?" LOL
Rumor has it that coaches flip coins and pick starters at staff meetings.
 

AWS1022

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Don't you know that players are relegated to backup roles without so much as the courtesy of a "workout?" LOL
Rumor has it that coaches flip coins and pick starters at staff meetings.
Practices are so overrated. Our coach should just bench anyone every time they have a bad game, bad quarter, or bad play. Many of the coaches on here would run out of players before the halfway point of the season. They would also lose 80% of their team every year into the transfer portal, but player loyalty is a bad thing.
 
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PSULionsDub

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Don't you know that players are relegated to backup roles without so much as the courtesy of a "workout?" LOL
Rumor has it that coaches flip coins and pick starters at staff meetings.
Since the current problem with the Penn State Football program is Coach Franklin, then I also believe the staff chooses plays based on flipping a coin or pulling straws, which explains the questionable play calling over the past couple of years.
 

marshall23

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Since the current problem with the Penn State Football program is Coach Franklin, then I also believe the staff chooses plays based on flipping a coin or pulling straws, which explains the questionable play calling over the past couple of years.
Coaching is the problem.....says who.....you and the NNNNNCAC? LOL CJF is so bad that he has a 10 year deal.
 

LongJakk

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Any talk of Levis being a 1st round QB is BS. He just isn't. His numbers last year were basically equivalent to Clifford and Clifford was hurt most of the season. He clearly couldn't throw downfield and they couldn't take the risk of running him the 2nd half of the season. Plus the OL & TEs couldn't run block an over-matched Villanova let alone top 20 teams. If Clifford is healthy and the run blocking is just marginally better then PSU will be a top 20 and with a break or 2 top 10.
 

NittanyIllinois

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Coaching is the problem.....says who.....you and the NNNNNCAC? LOL CJF is so bad that he has a 10 year deal.

Regardless of what one thinks of Franklin as a coach compared to his rivals, you have to give him mad props for leveraging a 66% winning percentage at Penn State into such a contract. That's Gus Malzahn-level skill. Who said flirting with other schools doesn't pay off?

At least Malzahn was able to occasionally beat his big conference rival. James? Not so much. But when you've got bosses that don't levy those kinds of expectations on you, it's best to just roll with it. Sandy's got this!

Just hope the Gus-James parallels don't follow to its logical conclusion :)
 
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marshall23

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Regardless of what one thinks of Franklin as a coach compared to his rivals, you have to give him mad props for leveraging a 66% winning percentage at Penn State into such a contract. That's Gus Malzahn-level skill. Who said flirting with other schools doesn't pay off?

At least Malzahn was able to occasionally beat his big conference rival. James? Not so much. But when you've got bosses that don't levy those kinds of expectations on you, it's best to just roll with it. Sandy's got this!

Just hope the Gus-James parallels don't follow to its logical conclusion :)
It'll make no difference in daily life here. New coach, same old refrain....."we deserve better."
 

Crusher1950

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James Franklin is a poor football coach and anyone with a brain knows it, he will win nothing here and let’s face it he was lucky to beat osu
 

Wallace Breen

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James Franklin is a poor football coach and anyone with a brain knows it, he will win nothing here and let’s face it he was lucky to beat osu
This is pure hyperbole. Franklin is not a poor football coach. No coach in the Big Ten is. He is a solid to good football coach. His players stay out of trouble and by most accounts, will run through a wall for him. What he isn't is a very good to great football coach. He absolutely isn't an elite coach as there are very few of them.
 

ryoder1

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This is pure hyperbole. Franklin is not a poor football coach. No coach in the Big Ten is. He is a solid to good football coach. His players stay out of trouble and by most accounts, will run through a wall for him. What he isn't is a very good to great football coach. He absolutely isn't an elite coach as there are very few of them.
As a game coach and X and O guy he is close to poor., call it below average.
Yeah is he better than the Kansas coach or the Akron coach or some other lousy program, sure. Compare him to coaches at big brand/ up and coming programs not named Bama, O$U, Georgia, Okie. Jimbo Fisher is better, Lane Kiffin is better, Harbaugh yeah hate to say it but most likely better. Riley is better. Brian Kelly is better, Stopps at UK better. We will see about Napier at Florida, Venebales at Okie and whomever the new guy is at Oregon. Looking like Tucker at Sparty is better and Ferentz at Iowa seems to be better to maybe equal. Give him the edge over Sarkisian.
Go through the list.
 

KCLion

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As a game coach and X and O guy he is close to poor., call it below average.
Yeah is he better than the Kansas coach or the Akron coach or some other lousy program, sure. Compare him to coaches at big brand/ up and coming programs not named Bama, O$U, Georgia, Okie. Jimbo Fisher is better, Lane Kiffin is better, Harbaugh yeah hate to say it but most likely better. Riley is better. Brian Kelly is better, Stopps at UK better. We will see about Napier at Florida, Venebales at Okie and whomever the new guy is at Oregon. Looking like Tucker at Sparty is better and Ferentz at Iowa seems to be better to maybe equal. Give him the edge over Sarkisian.
Go through the list.

You may want to rethink that about the current Kansas coach. He’s a pretty good one.
 

NittanyIllinois

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As a game coach and X and O guy he is close to poor., call it below average.
Yeah is he better than the Kansas coach or the Akron coach or some other lousy program, sure. Compare him to coaches at big brand/ up and coming programs not named Bama, O$U, Georgia, Okie. Jimbo Fisher is better, Lane Kiffin is better, Harbaugh yeah hate to say it but most likely better. Riley is better. Brian Kelly is better, Stopps at UK better. We will see about Napier at Florida, Venebales at Okie and whomever the new guy is at Oregon. Looking like Tucker at Sparty is better and Ferentz at Iowa seems to be better to maybe equal. Give him the edge over Sarkisian.
Go through the list.

Yeah, that's the thing.

When most rational people criticize Franklin as a coach, it's in comparison to his peers. Not in comparison to the general public. This argument that "Franklin is a better coach than anybody on this board" is absolutely true -- but it's a complete strawman argument. I'd sure hope that's not the standard his bosses have set.

Penn State is a top-10 program. There's no reason why the results shouldn't reflect that. And to Franklin's credit, he got us there in 2016-2019. But we have clearly taken a step back. Happens to lots of coaches who once had a high level of success. This year will say a lot about which way this program is headed. Another 4 or 5-loss season, and I think we have our answer.
 
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Wallace Breen

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As a game coach and X and O guy he is close to poor., call it below average.
Yeah is he better than the Kansas coach or the Akron coach or some other lousy program, sure. Compare him to coaches at big brand/ up and coming programs not named Bama, O$U, Georgia, Okie. Jimbo Fisher is better, Lane Kiffin is better, Harbaugh yeah hate to say it but most likely better. Riley is better. Brian Kelly is better, Stopps at UK better. We will see about Napier at Florida, Venebales at Okie and whomever the new guy is at Oregon. Looking like Tucker at Sparty is better and Ferentz at Iowa seems to be better to maybe equal. Give him the edge over Sarkisian.
Go through the list.
I don't have Franklin anywhere near the top of the Big Ten. Heck, I would rank him fifth in the East behind Day, Harbaugh, Tucker and Schiano, not necessarily in that order. Never mind Fleck, Ferenz and Chryst.
 

Wallace Breen

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Penn State is a top-10 program. There's no reason why the results shouldn't reflect that. And to Franklin's credit, he got us there in 2016-2019. But we have clearly taken a step back. Happens to lots of coaches who once had a high level of success. This year will say a lot about which way this program is headed. Another 4 or 5-loss season, and I think we have our answer.
Actually, Joe Moorhead got us there. Again, it must be noted that Franklin was forced to fire Donovan. That is a red flag that he will never get us over the top. That was obvious during his first season much less after year two.
 

NittanyIllinois

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Actually, Joe Moorhead got us there. Again, it must be noted that Franklin was forced to fire Donovan. That is a red flag that he will never get us over the top. That was obvious during his first season much less after year two.
Nah, you've got to credit Franklin with the overall body of work. For better or worse. And he put together a team that did some really good things in that stretch.

Not disputing your take on Donovan, but Franklin did hire Moorhead. And he recruited most of that lineup that won the Big Ten in 2016.

But, there's very real reason to question whether that 2016-17 run was something he can replicate without a Saquon Barkley and a gritty QB like Trace. We won 11 games in 2019, but never looked impressive against the best competition -- even in wins. 2019 was a very good team, but not on par with 2016-17. And it's been a slide since then.
 

bcspsu

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Yeah, that's the thing.

When most rational people criticize Franklin as a coach, it's in comparison to his peers. Not in comparison to the general public. This argument that "Franklin is a better coach than anybody on this board" is absolutely true -- but it's a complete strawman argument. I'd sure hope that's not the standard his bosses have set.

Penn State is a top-10 program. There's no reason why the results shouldn't reflect that. And to Franklin's credit, he got us there in 2016-2019. But we have clearly taken a step back. Happens to lots of coaches who once had a high level of success. This year will say a lot about which way this program is headed. Another 4 or 5-loss season, and I think we have our answer.
If a guy like Mike Tomlin can be criticized, who never has had a losing season in the NFL since he's been a head coach, which goes back to 2007, then a college coach like Franklin certainly can be criticized for producing back to back underachieving seasons, being unable to recruit and/or groom Big 10 caliber offensive linemen, beating OSU once since 2014, getting completely embarrassed at Michigan except for 2020, and losing games like the Illinois one last year.
 

AWS1022

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As a game coach and X and O guy he is close to poor., call it below average.
Yeah is he better than the Kansas coach or the Akron coach or some other lousy program, sure. Compare him to coaches at big brand/ up and coming programs not named Bama, O$U, Georgia, Okie. Jimbo Fisher is better, Lane Kiffin is better, Harbaugh yeah hate to say it but most likely better. Riley is better. Brian Kelly is better, Stopps at UK better. We will see about Napier at Florida, Venebales at Okie and whomever the new guy is at Oregon. Looking like Tucker at Sparty is better and Ferentz at Iowa seems to be better to maybe equal. Give him the edge over Sarkisian.
Go through the list.
Oh stop it….you’re list is ridiculous. Kiffin, Stoops, Ferentz, and Tucker are better in what way? Franklin has a higher winning percentage than all of them (hell, Franklin had a higher winning percentage at Vandy than Stoops, Ferentz or Tucker and about the same as Kiffin has overall in P5 programs). Tucker has two losing seasons out of the three he’s coached and you want to say he’s better than Franklin. Ferentz is the only one that has actually won anything and he has two Big championships in 22 years and hasn’t won one since ‘04 and he’s in the easy division. And none of them took over the sh!tshow Franklin did. At least be reasonable in your argument. When any of your “better” coaches wins at Vandy and takes over a program crushed by sanctions and wins 42 games in four years, let me know.
 

AWS1022

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Actually, Joe Moorhead got us there. Again, it must be noted that Franklin was forced to fire Donovan. That is a red flag that he will never get us over the top. That was obvious during his first season much less after year two.
So when they lose, it’s all Franklin’s fault but when they win it’s because of an assistant coach or the players…got it.
 
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marshall23

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So when they lose, it’s all Franklin’s fault but when they win it’s because of an assistant coach or the players…got it.
I was really hoping CJF would have gone to USC. I wanted to enjoy the same morons saying the same things about the next PSU coach.
 

PSULionsDub

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I was really hoping CJF would have gone to USC. I wanted to enjoy the same morons saying the same things about the next PSU coach.
CJF has no one but himself to blame for not going to USC. He did in fact speak to USC in late September and then USC stopped talking to him after they vetted him. USC knew they could do better.
 
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NittanyIllinois

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CJF has no one but himself to blame for not going to USC. He did in fact speak to USC in late September and then USC stopped talking to him after they vetted him. USC knew they could do better.
And they did better. USC’s AD played that whole sequence very well.
 

Wallace Breen

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And they did better. USC’s AD played that whole sequence very well.
Their AD is competent, ours was not. The best move Sandy ever made was firing John Donovan (who Franklin refused to fire until forced). Her worst move was not letting Franklin walk during his previous efforts at gaining an unearned extension. Then she doubled down on stupid and gave him another one, more disastrous than the first.
 

The-Hack

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Levis didn't show much more accuracy that he had shown at PSU. Maybe a light went on at the end of last season for Levis and his film looks much better but from what I saw he is still more of a big athlete playing QB than he is top NFL QB prospect.
In fairness, he completed 65 percent of his passes, and did improve as the season progressed.
 
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marshall23

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CJF has no one but himself to blame for not going to USC. He did in fact speak to USC in late September and then USC stopped talking to him after they vetted him. USC knew they could do better.
Yeah, like you know what happened.
 

jbenedict

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QB and OL have been dumpster fires as of late.

Regarding QB, we have to understand that 2020 was a mess due to COVID. That the B1G shut down the season, everyone went home, PA forbade any social interaction including sex and PSU was screwed when the B1G decided to have a season after all. Then in the 2021 season, we apparently did not have a backup QB. The result was that we wouldn't run SC for fear of him getting hurt and the defenses adjusted. Then, he DID get hurt and our backup QB couldn't successfully execute a snap from scrimmage (the xfered out). Then, for whatever reason, the staff wouldn't play anyone except the injured and run-challenged SC for almost the entire year.

If we have a decent OL, which has been a systemic problem for over a decade, SC will play well. And if we can develop one of the second teamers so SC can run the ball in the RPO (so the defenses actually have to cover that option) we'll be much better.

PA and the B1G in August/Sept of 2020

BewitchedConfusedIbisbill-size_restricted.gif
Sean Clifford is not a runner.
 

jbenedict

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Sean is a problem and him coming back is not good for us to move forward.I will continue to say this over and over. What is surprising is their are posters on this board who have coached, and they can't see this. If Clifford is the starter we will be in for another dismal season.
 

straykat

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First off, his performance last year was far short of “great”. They had a good year as a team and he was part of that, but the OLine, the running game and WanDale had as much or more to do with that than Levis. Might want to wait and see how things shake out this year before we determine whether he’s a first round pick. And looking at history, it’s much more likely if Levis winds up a first round pick it has more to do with what he learned at PSU than what he learned at UK.
Yea, because NFL rosters are chock-full of Penn State QBs 🙄
 
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NittanyIllinois

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Yea, because NFL rosters are chock-full of Penn State QBs 🙄

Haha, right. I didn't understand that comment at all -- what exactly would lead anybody to believe that Levis's time at PSU positions him well for the NFL?

Franklin has done a solid job of getting kids to the pros -- and many of our guys show up at the combine in tip-top condition. That's a credit to the staff. But our QB development is clearly not good.
 
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marshall23

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Yea, because NFL rosters are chock-full of Penn State QBs 🙄
Eleven Ohio State QBS had the NFL as of 11/28//21 and their combined record as starters at that time was 79-99.
Perhaps we should look for complaints elsewhere?
But again, far be in from me to throw a blanket on a good we hate our coach(es) party. What is NN for anyway?
 
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marshall23

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You are not Santa Clause (I hope) and Levis may not be a draft pick.

But the important difference in your respective status is that CBS and others have not projected you as Santa Clause.
CBS is a noted top flight pro talent evaluator? Really? Columbia Broadcasting is who you are going to war with?