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Clint Hurdle

bjf1984

Well-Known Member
Sep 8, 2014
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I like the guy as a manager. In baseball (as opposed to, say, football) the role of the manager (coach) is much more in keeping 25 guys motivated day by day through the grind of a 162 game schedule.....moreso than the "strategic" stuff that is so much more impactful in football.
I think Hurdle handles that "management" stuff really well....but he may be about as lousy at the "strategic stuff" as any manager out there.

Yesterday was another classic in that regard:

Buccos had Thursday off. On Friday and Saturday, Hughes and Watson pitched both days, but only threw a TOTAL of 23 and 29 pitches, respectively on those two games. And the Buccos also have off today (Monday)

SO....Buccos, mired in a horrendous hitting slump, and after wasting two tremendous pitching performances against their top rival, are on the verge of making it three in a row. Lo and behold, miracle of miracles, Kang knocks one over the fence in the 9th to tie it .....and Pedro in the 12th to win it - seemingly.

And what does Clint do? He sends out not Watson.....not Hughes.....but the last arm in the pen (Liz) to throw 39 pitches and lose the game.

Ugh!

A two game swing vs your top rival.....and an psychological blow that could set the team back significantly. And that is all on Hurdle for a predictable, obvious foul up.

He's one of the guys you would love to have "managing" the team......but let the game day strategic stuff in someone else's hands.
 
I'm actually OK with not pitching Watson. It's called principles and he stuck with his. A coach you admired would probably support his decision.
 
I'm actually OK with not pitching Watson. It's called principles and he stuck with his. A coach you admired would probably support his decision.
Phil -

I would have been fine with this in a typical 9 inning game.....but this was the third straight extra-inning game....with an off day on either end. If there is anytime during the year when you send a guy out "3 in a row", this would be it - IMHO.
That kind of "unbreakable rule" by Hurdle, I think, is harmful at times.
Add to it the importance of this game, and the fact that neither guy threw much in either of the 2 previous games (one outing for Hughes was 3 pitches).....I don't see how it is any more stressful to have Watson or Hughes pitch the 12th.....even split the inning if necessary.....rather than have your "last guy" throw 39 pitches.

But - who knows.

Thank goodness its still early May.....but that two game swing could be HUGE come September. I think there is a good chance that, looking back on it, the club will find they would give their right arm to have a chance to toss one scoreless inning to pick up two games in the standings.
 
Phil -

I would have been fine with this in a typical 9 inning game.....but this was the third straight extra-inning game....with an off day on either end. If there is anytime during the year when you send a guy out "3 in a row", this would be it - IMHO.
That kind of "unbreakable rule" by Hurdle, I think, is harmful at times.
Add to it the importance of this game, and the fact that neither guy threw much in either of the 2 previous games (one outing for Hughes was 3 pitches).....I don't see how it is any more stressful to have Watson or Hughes pitch the 12th.....even split the inning if necessary.....rather than have your "last guy" throw 39 pitches.

But - who knows.

Thank goodness its still early May.....but that two game swing could be HUGE come September. I think there is a good chance that, looking back on it, the club will find they would give their right arm to have a chance to toss one scoreless inning to pick up two games in the standings.
bjf, I don't think we have to worry about the two game swing. The Pirates are completely outclassed by the Cardinals and will be well behind them come September.
 
Really?

They lost 3 tough games in which they could have easily won. I don't think they are behind the Cards that much or at all.

I do think the lost of Wainwright will hurt StL at some point.
 
Really?

They lost 3 tough games in which they could have easily won. I don't think they are behind the Cards that much or at all.

I do think the lost of Wainwright will hurt StL at some point.
In baseball all that matters is they lost all three. They left 18 men on base in one of those games. Last I checked they're 6.5 games back. Twelve wins with eight of those coming against the Brewers and D-Backs. Add to that, they have three starters with an ERA under 2.0, and yet they're under .500. Sorry, not good enough.
 
Really?

They lost 3 tough games in which they could have easily won. I don't think they are behind the Cards that much or at all.

I do think the lost of Wainwright will hurt StL at some point.
Good teams win most of the tough games. The Cardinals know what it takes to win. The Pirates are still learning, and as they are learning they are falling out of the Division race.
 
In baseball all that matters is they lost all three. They left 18 men on base in one of those games. Last I checked they're 6.5 games back. Twelve wins with eight of those coming against the Brewers and D-Backs. Add to that, they have three starters with an ERA under 2.0, and yet they're under .500. Sorry, not good enough

In my view, that's on the hitting coach, not Hurdle.
 
Phil -

I would have been fine with this in a typical 9 inning game.....but this was the third straight extra-inning game....with an off day on either end. If there is anytime during the year when you send a guy out "3 in a row", this would be it - IMHO.
That kind of "unbreakable rule" by Hurdle, I think, is harmful at times.
Add to it the importance of this game, and the fact that neither guy threw much in either of the 2 previous games (one outing for Hughes was 3 pitches).....I don't see how it is any more stressful to have Watson or Hughes pitch the 12th.....even split the inning if necessary.....rather than have your "last guy" throw 39 pitches.

But - who knows.

Thank goodness its still early May.....but that two game swing could be HUGE come September. I think there is a good chance that, looking back on it, the club will find they would give their right arm to have a chance to toss one scoreless inning to pick up two games in the standings.

Maybe, but character is defined by sticking to your principles even when it is most difficult to do so. There's a fine line between being principled and rigid. Maybe that line was crossed yesterday, but I'm not all that upset that he stuck by his principles. The Buccos are not playing like a championship caliber team right now. They have time to turn it around, but it needs to start with this home stand. They need to win 5 or 6 against Cinncy and St. Loius. Do that and they're right back in the thick of things.
 
Maybe, but character is defined by sticking to your principles even when it is most difficult to do so. There's a fine line between being principled and rigid. Maybe that line was crossed yesterday, but I'm not all that upset that he stuck by his principles. The Buccos are not playing like a championship caliber team right now. They have time to turn it around, but it needs to start with this home stand. They need to win 5 or 6 against Cinncy and St. Loius. Do that and they're right back in the thick of things.

Its all debatable, of course.

A principle is something like "I'm going to take a long term focus" (which I think is the general gist here)

A rigid rule is "I'm not going to pitch a guy three days in a row"

Its ALWAYS easy to adhere to some arbitrary rule. It takes some insight to know how to "manage" (in a general sense) to a principle. Adhering to a "rule" is the easy way out.

Just as a "fer' instance"....what if that game goes 3 or 4 more innings........does Hurdle have Liz throw 120 pitches until his arm falls off, or does he put Hughes or Watson out there? See what I mean, the "rule" may conflict with the principal.

I like (in principle) the idea of trying to manage guys playing time to maximize long term performance (we see Hurdle do that a lot by giving regulars a day off immediately before an off-day....like he did with Walker on Sunday). I like that he tries to minimize too many successive days out of the bullpen arms.

I think Sunday was a case where his "rule" may have conflicted with the "principle".....and he wet the bed. Which is, of course, a debatable opinion. In the end, the Buccos may win 95 games and none of what happened in May will matter....or they may lose 85 (but let's hope not).

All that said, I like Hurdle as a manger, overall.
 
In my view, that's on the hitting coach, not Hurdle.
I'd say it's on neither. It's on the players. As I've said before, the Pirates need more gamers. Guys that can hit when it counts, and guys that don't go up there swinging away at everything and then look at a third strike right on the plate. Most of these guys, with the exception of Polanco and Marte, have enough experience by now to know this. Only so much a manager or hitting coach can do. These supposed stars and leaders need to step up.
 
I'm lukewarm about Hurdle. He's a big improvement - a huge improvement - over the dead-assed dreck they had in there before, stiffs like Russell and Tracy. I hate to even mention their names.

Hurdle is strictly a paint-by-numbers, fill -in-the-blanks manager. Your starter is cruising along, mowing them down? Doesn't matter. Seventh inning - Hughes is coming in, no matter what. Hughes throws five pitches - doesn't matter - it's time for Watson. Hurdle absolutely refuses to make any adjustments based on the ebb and flow of a game - it's all on autopilot.

Same with the lineup. Hurdle will go to the grave with the guy hitting .192. He's rather take out his own appendix with a butter knife than play a bench guy who is ripping the ball.

He's okay. Nobody is getting him confused with Sparky Anderson.
 
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