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Cael vs Franklin

GogglesPaizano

GogglesPaizano

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Feb 6, 2018
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I am a Franklin lover so don't get out the pitch forks just yet. I guess my intent is less to scar JF than exhault Cael. It's just incredible to win 8 of 9 which is where we will be soon.

Let's face it despite Franklin's incredible recruiting process tOSU is Bama North and they have more talent so when putting the last two tOSU loses in perspective I think we have to give James a few more years of building before we get too critical.

That said when you win 55 minutes of the game you need to clamp down on your opponent's throat and close it out. Where would the program be today had we best tOSU three straight and won that Rose Bowl. We gave away all of three of those games.

This is the area where Cael silently shines. No one can argue that last year's tOSU wrestling squad was other worldly. To lose Nolf going into that dual was a big blow, but Cael pulled them through, and his decision to go with Cassar proved pure genious. He won the big one, and closed it out at the end desp some pretty stiff adversity. Nationals was equally amazing.

My hat is off to James, his response to last night's loss is admirable and inspiring. He will no longer be satisfied with being great, he is focusing on making us elite. That is the mindset of greatness and I have little doubt, in time he will bring is a NC.

There may be a paycheck disparity of 10x, and despite James Franklin being a really great coach and 'the' right man at the right time for our program, we are living through an amazing and rare era with the greatest college coach in the nation in any sport.

The John Wooden era came to an end at UCLA, and some day so to will Cael's legendary run here. We are enjoying blessed times. I am grateful and enjoying the ride.
 
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There is no longer a talent discrepancy between Penn State and Ohio State, at least at the first tier. Penn State has had the better team 3 years in a row, yet they are 1 - 2 in those three games. In the two they lost they were up by 2 scores in the fourth. They were up with time running in the 4th against USC in the Rose Bowl. Last year they dominated Iowa and yet lost the lead close to the end of the game and needed a McSorley miracle to win that one. They needed another miracle against App State.

If playing to dominate got you a 2 score lead half way through the 4th quarter, then by golly continue to play to dominate and go up by 3 scores. Unless you are up by 45 with less than a minute to go there is no reason to take you foot off anybody's throat.

Spurrier once said (paraphrasing) my firsts play their firsts until they put their seconds in and we score once more. They must submit before I pull my guys.

Bill Cower missed at least one super bowl, probably 2 and tried for 3 by playing the 4th quarter trying not to lose.

It isn't talent it is psychological and the freaking mind set needs to change.
 
There was definitely questionable coaching from my cushy seat. But I would say out blitzing on 1st down from the 4 is not really playing not to lose. Overall, we stayed aggressive to the end. I think offensively our system has issues with the usual trappings of playing with a lead late—every play has choices for players to make pre and post snap. It’s a great system, except for when it’s not.
I was just remembering how much grief folks gave the coaches for throwing deep late against Pitt and USC 2 years ago. I for one, would have felt better about Trace throwing a pick last night in that situation than the zone read. But coaches rarely have an easy call in that situation.

Cael is more easily compared to Saban, at least in terms of achievement that defies all conventional logic.

That said, I also want Franklin to have a long tenure here.
 
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One play is not the definition of the mind set.
However, a trend set over 3 seasons occurring in multiple games is enough to indicate there is a problem.
 
nitlion6 said:
There is no longer a talent discrepancy between Penn State and Ohio State, at least at the first tier. Penn State has had the better team 3 years in a row, yet they are 1 - 2 in those three games. In the two they lost they were up by 2 scores in the fourth. They were up with time running in the 4th against USC in the Rose Bowl. Last year they dominated Iowa and yet lost the lead close to the end of the game and needed a McSorley miracle to win that one. They needed another miracle against App State.

If playing to dominate got you a 2 score lead half way through the 4th quarter, then by golly continue to play to dominate and go up by 3 scores. Unless you are up by 45 with less than a minute to go there is no reason to take you foot off anybody's throat.

Spurrier once said (paraphrasing) my firsts play their firsts until they put their seconds in and we score once more. They must submit before I pull my guys.

Bill Cower missed at least one super bowl, probably 2 and tried for 3 by playing the 4th quarter trying not to lose.

It isn't talent it is psychological and the freaking mind set needs to change.
Click to expand...

Right.

OSU NFL draft 2008 - 2017 - 56 total, 14 1st round.
PSU NFL draft 2008 - 2017 - 34 total, 2 1st round.
Huge disparity.
Franklin is like Lehigh vs Cael .
 
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Lattner said:
Right.

OSU NFL draft 2008 - 2017 - 56 total, 14 1st round.
PSU NFL draft 2008 - 2017 - 34 total, 2 1st round.
Huge disparity.
Franklin is like Lehigh vs Cael .
Click to expand...
2016 - 2018 Penn State won once and had the others won and has looked the better team.
 
College football is a garbage product compared to the NFL. Aside from the closeness in score, last night’s game was thoroughly awful.
 
nitlion6 said:
There is no longer a talent discrepancy between Penn State and Ohio State, at least at the first tier. Penn State has had the better team 3 years in a row, yet they are 1 - 2 in those three games. In the two they lost they were up by 2 scores in the fourth. They were up with time running in the 4th against USC in the Rose Bowl. Last year they dominated Iowa and yet lost the lead close to the end of the game and needed a McSorley miracle to win that one. They needed another miracle against App State.

If playing to dominate got you a 2 score lead half way through the 4th quarter, then by golly continue to play to dominate and go up by 3 scores. Unless you are up by 45 with less than a minute to go there is no reason to take you foot off anybody's throat.

Spurrier once said (paraphrasing) my firsts play their firsts until they put their seconds in and we score once more. They must submit before I pull my guys.

Bill Cower missed at least one super bowl, probably 2 and tried for 3 by playing the 4th quarter trying not to lose.

It isn't talent it is psychological and the freaking mind set needs to change.
Click to expand...
There is a talent discrepancy, Ohio State's D Line is much better than ours. Chase Young, Bosa's backup was the best D lineman on the field last night. Most of Ohio State's 2nd string D line starts at PSU.

It is frustrating the number of close losses with the lead late the last few years...reality is we are 2 to 3 years ahead of schedule if you look back to 2012 right after the sanctions hit. The miracle run to the B1G title in 2016 has us all a little spoiled. Franklin needs a few more really good recruiting classes to get there. Last night's game was lost on lack of execution. Stevens drops a lateral which should have gone for 6 instead we get nothing. Too many dropped passes killing drives. Both of Ohio State's fourth quarter TD's were the result of missed tackles, Castro-Fields was terrible.

No doubt some play calls could have been better. The blitz in the fourth quarter with Ohio State backed up to the 4 back fired. There is you play not to lose, keep everything in front of you. The handoff to Sanders was a bad play call. I get had the block been made they pick up the first down. Block wasn't made. In that situation, given the night McSorley had, no way, he does not have the ball in his hands. Actually I will give Franklin a lot of credit on that, the easy call was give to McSorley and if it doesn't work nobody is ripping him for the play call.
 
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Speak softly and carry a big stick is my view of our wrestling coach.
And, of yes, recruit better than anyone ( in that regard our coach is the Saban of wrestling); along with good students who win the NCAA. Plus.........
 
GogglesPaizano said:
I am a Franklin lover so don't get out the pitch forks just yet. I guess my intent is less to scar JF than exhault Cael. It's just incredible to win 8 of 9 which is where we will be soon.

Let's face it despite Franklin's incredible recruiting process tOSU is Bama North and they have more talent so when putting the last two tOSU loses in perspective I think we have to give James a few more years of building before we get too critical.

That said when you win 55 minutes of the game you need to clamp down on your opponent's throat and close it out. Where would the program be today had we best tOSU three straight and won that Rose Bowl. We gave away all of three of those games.

This is the area where Cael silently shines. No one can argue that last year's tOSU wrestling squad was other worldly. To lose Nolf going into that dual was a big blow, but Cael pulled them through, and his decision to go with Cassar proved pure genious. He won the big one, and closed it out at the end desp some pretty stiff adversity. Nationals was equally amazing.

My hat is off to James, his response to last night's loss is admirable and inspiring. He will no longer be satisfied with being great, he is focusing on making us elite. That is the mindset of greatness and I have little doubt, in time he will bring is a NC.

There may be a paycheck disparity of 10x, and despite James Franklin being a really great coach and 'the' right man at the right time for our program, we are living through an amazing and rare era with the greatest college coach in the nation in any sport.

The John Wooden era came to an end at UCLA, and some day so to will Cael's legendary run here. We are enjoying blessed times. I am grateful and enjoying the ride.
Click to expand...
Re: Cassar
Pure genius? I thought Rasheed was injured.
 
nitlion6 said:
There is no longer a talent discrepancy between Penn State and Ohio State, at least at the first tier. Penn State has had the better team 3 years in a row, yet they are 1 - 2 in those three games. In the two they lost they were up by 2 scores in the fourth. They were up with time running in the 4th against USC in the Rose Bowl. Last year they dominated Iowa and yet lost the lead close to the end of the game and needed a McSorley miracle to win that one. They needed another miracle against App State.

If playing to dominate got you a 2 score lead half way through the 4th quarter, then by golly continue to play to dominate and go up by 3 scores. Unless you are up by 45 with less than a minute to go there is no reason to take you foot off anybody's throat.

Spurrier once said (paraphrasing) my firsts play their firsts until they put their seconds in and we score once more. They must submit before I pull my guys.

Bill Cower missed at least one super bowl, probably 2 and tried for 3 by playing the 4th quarter trying not to lose.

It isn't talent it is psychological and the freaking mind set needs to change.
Click to expand...

And play calling in critical situations. I love Franklin but he reminds me a little bit of Mike Tomlin's play calling brain farts.
 
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O was fine. Game was lost on D - can't let a team fly down the field twice.
As for Lemon - you're nuts. NFL is just a bunch of marketing for a subjectively called game. Too bad the college game tries to emulate.
 
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Lyons212 said:
There is a talent discrepancy, Ohio State's D Line is much better than ours. Chase Young, Bosa's backup was the best D lineman on the field last night. Most of Ohio State's 2nd string D line starts at PSU.

It is frustrating the number of close losses with the lead late the last few years...reality is we are 2 to 3 years ahead of schedule if you look back to 2012 right after the sanctions hit. The miracle run to the B1G title in 2016 has us all a little spoiled. Franklin needs a few more really good recruiting classes to get there. Last night's game was lost on lack of execution. Stevens drops a lateral which should have gone for 6 instead we get nothing. Too many dropped passes killing drives. Both of Ohio State's fourth quarter TD's were the result of missed tackles, Castro-Fields was terrible.

No doubt some play calls could have been better. The blitz in the fourth quarter with Ohio State backed up to the 4 back fired. There is you play not to lose, keep everything in front of you. The handoff to Sanders was a bad play call. I get had the block been made they pick up the first down. Block wasn't made. In that situation, given the night McSorley had, no way, he does not have the ball in his hands. Actually I will give Franklin a lot of credit on that, the easy call was give to McSorley and if it doesn't work nobody is ripping him for the play call.
Click to expand...
I do concede the Buckeyes have much more talent on the defensive side of the ball than do the Steelers.
 
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Going back to the origin of this thread I too believe there is a common thread between Cael and CJF. Both appear to be men of great bearing, honor and deference. Wisdom is i common between them. The size of programs are different as were the conditions of said programs upon assuming management of them not that long ago.

I agree that we are a bit ahead of schedule from the dark days of 2012 era. I thought we may be coming into form by about now but our recruiting, while spectacular in many ways, is not completely balanced and still not the equal in balance or measure to OSU. I don't say that as a negative but as a qualifier given time to repair since much repair has happened already. Many predicted PSU would be playing at the level of a state school e.g. Shippensburg and the like, not a powerhouse Big 10 title challenger season after season.

I see the friendship between Cael and CJF continuing to bloom and it appears partly due to their similarities. They both are great men who try to do things the correct way, not the easy way. That takes time, effort and more effort.

The fruit is hanging there. Both programs are doing very well. Wrestling is dynasty level and football has recovered to be at a level above any since the first few years we entered the conference imho on a consistent basis. Reloading not rebuilding which I fully expected this fall. Good men are successful through difficulty, because of it and the lessons learned. PSU was not a rose garden in 2014 when CJF arrived but its smelling sweeter daily. WE ARE....
 
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Lyons212 said:
There is a talent discrepancy, Ohio State's D Line is much better than ours. Chase Young, Bosa's backup was the best D lineman on the field last night. Most of Ohio State's 2nd string D line starts at PSU.

It is frustrating the number of close losses with the lead late the last few years...reality is we are 2 to 3 years ahead of schedule if you look back to 2012 right after the sanctions hit. The miracle run to the B1G title in 2016 has us all a little spoiled. Franklin needs a few more really good recruiting classes to get there. Last night's game was lost on lack of execution. Stevens drops a lateral which should have gone for 6 instead we get nothing. Too many dropped passes killing drives. Both of Ohio State's fourth quarter TD's were the result of missed tackles, Castro-Fields was terrible.

No doubt some play calls could have been better. The blitz in the fourth quarter with Ohio State backed up to the 4 back fired. There is you play not to lose, keep everything in front of you. The handoff to Sanders was a bad play call. I get had the block been made they pick up the first down. Block wasn't made. In that situation, given the night McSorley had, no way, he does not have the ball in his hands. Actually I will give Franklin a lot of credit on that, the easy call was give to McSorley and if it doesn't work nobody is ripping him for the play call.
Click to expand...

Excellent reply, Lyons212. I agree with each of your points, and I am surprised that some people have difficulty remembering where the football program was in the dark days following the sanctions. There was a generally accepted outlook for a decade-long period of non-competitive results before most expected Penn State to recover and become a nationally relevant football program again. We have become spoiled long before it was expected that we would even become relevant again. Kudos to Franklin on an incredible job to date.
 
I'm very happy with the progress that Franklin has made. However I don't know how you can watch games against Top 10 opponents and not think he gets out coached in the 4th quarter when the game is on the line. That 4th down run play was a perfect example. I'm hoping this will change soon and we start winning those games. Doing so will make PSU a perennial powerhouse as his recruiting efforts are phenomenal and the talent is rolling in.

In summary, Cael and Franklin are both very good recruiters and can coach up a prospect. Right now IMHO, Cael is the better game day coach and Franklin has a ways to go to even get close.
 
PSUAllTheWay said:
I'm very happy with the progress that Franklin has made. However I don't know how you can watch games against Top 10 opponents and not think he gets out coached in the 4th quarter when the game is on the line. That 4th down run play was a perfect example. I'm hoping this will change soon and we start winning those games. Doing so will make PSU a perennial powerhouse as his recruiting efforts are phenomenal and the talent is rolling in.

In summary, Cael and Franklin are both very good recruiters and can coach up a prospect. Right now IMHO, Cael is the better game day coach and Franklin has a ways to go to even get close.
Click to expand...
No doubt the close losses are very frustrating. A lot of that gets back to recruiting. For example, in the last 5 years, Ohio State has 5 top ten recruiting classes with 4 in the top 5. PSU has one top ten class and they are true freshmen. Why does it matter, depth. If you look at the snap count from the game, PSU did very little subbing on defense, they were gassed in the fourth quarter, Franklin said as much. They can't sub in big games because the depth is not there.

It still comes down to making plays, a few less drops, a few made tackles, a few more better blocks and PSU wins going away. Of course, all of that is easier when you are not tired. Ohio State had their share of mistakes too, they were able to make a few more big plays against a gassed PSU D in the fourth quarter.

No doubt the 4th and 5 call was dumb, trying to run for a first down against on of the best D lines in CFB was dumb.
 
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RVARZR said:
I think Cael pins Franklin easily. At a minimum Cael by TF with Franklin scoring no offensive points.
Click to expand...
Scoring no offensive points? So you believe Franklin is a good enough wrestler to wrestle in the NCAA finals representing Iowa. Dang, he must be better than I was thinking.
:);)
 
This one is more on Mcsorley for going out of bounds and the DB for dropping an INT a first grader should catch, but it is yet one more late 4th quarter lead that went up in flames ... This time to an inferior opponent. The distribing pattern continues to form. I still love the man, but they need to start stepping on the throats of their opponents in the 4th and put games away, rather than try not to lose - a recipe for failure most of the time.
 
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What I know is that Cael never lets me down. He recruits at an elite level and coaches at an elite level. He is an elite coach. THE elite coach.

Franklin is an average coach who is a great recruiter. That makes him a good coach.

There is a big difference between good and elite.
 
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Cali_Nittany said:
Franklin is a great recruiter. The officials jobbed us on that ridiculous defensive holding on a run play today.
Click to expand...

Cael has an advantage in recruiting, and that advantage is our home commonwealth. Now, he has established a foundation that lets him go far and wide, but Pa., Ohio, NJ, and Ny remain the sport’s heartland.
Get great ingredients, cook them with great skill, and .......
 
Cali_Nittany said:
Franklin is a great recruiter. The officials jobbed us on that ridiculous defensive holding on a run play today.
Click to expand...

Twice in the 2nd half the officials called Def holding on 3rd down where we had stopped them. Both calls were wtf but the second was a complete fabrication. I was starting to wonder if these guys are on the take. That said, Mich St had only one guy in Davis III that could do anything. He must have had a half dozen big third down catches in that game and we double covered him a total of zero times. The inability of the Def to adjust to the other teams gameplan is a bit remarkable in most of these bad loses.
 
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just like the OSU game..... needed a first down... 3rd down conversion % wasn't very good
 
El-Jefe said:
Isn't there another board for football commentary?
Click to expand...

You bet; bringing it back to wrestling. We will always have Cael and what was billed as the biggest college dual and season ever.

We were down a NC in Nolf, huge gaps at 125 and 133 and we still pulled it out. Cael's teams rise to the occasion in big moments as good as any team in any sport I have ever seen. We sent out Cassar just battling for a starting slot after 2 years of injuries against the then #1 guy in the country and he over achieved. We had another guy out if shape in one of his first matches of the year headlock a prior NC to send a message and set the tone. We were there to compete no matter the odds, hype, hoods or pinchains.

Cael picked the venue which worked to our advantage. Bo with the match in hand somehow pulled out a bonus win in the final second of the match. NN faced the #1 USA wrestler in the world and kept it to a decision when it counted. Mark delivered in a very tough bout.

Cael had the team up despite doing so without the second best wrestler in the country and the resulting 10 team point swing that noone would remember when the match was done. Net net he delivered, the team functioned at the highest level and acheived what they set out to do..

At Nationals the same thing to see Lee go down early another team might have seen the tea leaves differently but he and the team did not experience a let down. Coming into the quarters it came down to who could wrestle to their potential. tOSU and Tom Ryan faltered badly with several losing to inferior wrestlers or failing to maximize their performance. The contrast was Cael's squad over delivering when it meant the most and rocketing us into the closest, most exciting semis and finals the support may ever see. It was amazing to watch and at the center of it all is Cael Sanderson.

Cael had the most accomplished career as a competitor, he turned around a program nearly instantly from good to elitee He has built the finest coaching record and a run on championships I have witnessed first hand since legendary John Wooden's UCLA basketball teams. He is an amazing recruiter, an incredible leader, a man of strong faith not afraid to express it, he has impeccable integrity. We are blessed. He has changed the face of wrestling and we are all the benefactors. Knowing that nothing lasts forever I am enjoying every moment.

And.... I agree, the season can't start soon enough. I too dislike most of my posts the past few months, but they have been therapeutic in keeping me out of the rubber room.
 
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nitlion6 said:
There is no longer a talent discrepancy between Penn State and Ohio State, at least at the first tier. Penn State has had the better team 3 years in a row, yet they are 1 - 2 in those three games. In the two they lost they were up by 2 scores in the fourth. They were up with time running in the 4th against USC in the Rose Bowl. Last year they dominated Iowa and yet lost the lead close to the end of the game and needed a McSorley miracle to win that one. They needed another miracle against App State.

If playing to dominate got you a 2 score lead half way through the 4th quarter, then by golly continue to play to dominate and go up by 3 scores. Unless you are up by 45 with less than a minute to go there is no reason to take you foot off anybody's throat.

Spurrier once said (paraphrasing) my firsts play their firsts until they put their seconds in and we score once more. They must submit before I pull my guys.

Bill Cower missed at least one super bowl, probably 2 and tried for 3 by playing the 4th quarter trying not to lose.

It isn't talent it is psychological and the freaking mind set needs to change.
Click to expand...
I don't know what you're looking at, but there's a huge talent discrepancy between OSU and PSU's 1st and 2nd teams. The last five years, OSU is one or two in recruiting depending upon the service. We're not even top 10. We've had one top 10 class at No 5 and that was just last year. Its shows up in the 4th quarter like in most games. We don't have the depth or quality and we were gassed against OSU.
 
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