Brands on National Duals

[pish69]

http://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sp...as-bowl-style-national-duals-format/97891906/

Horrible journalism. Why not ask the #1 question. If you hate the idea, why'd you put your name on the dotted line? If you sign up for something, shouldn't it be your obligation to see your commitment through?

Basically, he says he likes it for #1 vs #2 but not other than that

 

[slicone]

http://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sp...as-bowl-style-national-duals-format/97891906/

Horrible journalism. Why not ask the #1 question. If you hate the idea, why'd you put your name on the dotted line? If you sign up for something, shouldn't it be your obligation to see your commitment through?

Basically, he says he likes it for #1 vs #2 but not other than that

He didn't put his name on the dotted line, Iowa didn't sign any contracts

 

[pish69]

He didn't put his name on the dotted line, Iowa didn't sign any contracts

That's not what Dresser said on his podcast yesterday. He basically said they all agreed to it and had to send it (agreement) in..

 

[dunkej01]

That's not what Dresser said on his podcast yesterday. He basically said they all agreed to it and had to send it (agreement) in..

so has jason bryant over on the G with regard to why the Goofers are not involved. Paraphrasing but they didnt send in their contract because they didnt know what the future held as the timing of the contract deadline and their breaking news last summer were happening on parallel tracks. In the end they would have qualified but instead worked something out with ISU.

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

http://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sp...as-bowl-style-national-duals-format/97891906/

Horrible journalism. Why not ask the #1 question. If you hate the idea, why'd you put your name on the dotted line? If you sign up for something, shouldn't it be your obligation to see your commitment through?

Basically, he says he likes it for #1 vs #2 but not other than that

Brands need to be a man and tell the truth. Everybody knows why Iowa isn't going to VT for a match. He looks worse and worse the more he tries to deflect what happened.

 

[Diego Badman]

http://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sp...as-bowl-style-national-duals-format/97891906/

Horrible journalism. Why not ask the #1 question. If you hate the idea, why'd you put your name on the dotted line? If you sign up for something, shouldn't it be your obligation to see your commitment through?

Basically, he says he likes it for #1 vs #2 but not other than that

I guess my question would be, then, is why did he take the assigned match last year versus N. C. State? It was not #1 vs. #2, but he went with it as part of the ranking matchups. I don't know. Tom Brands, to me, always seems to be a straight-on guy. It's hard for me to think that he'd make excuses, but, using terminology that is popular, "the optics" aren't good.

 

[El-Jefe]

Just to clarify: this never was #1 vs. #2, #3 vs. #4, etc.

It was always #1 B10 vs. #1 non-B10, #2 B10 vs. #2 non-B10, etc. At least conceptually.

We call it "bowls" and think of it as football bowls, even though the closer analogy is the B10 vs. ACC Challenge in hoops -- both in theory and in practice -- they attempt to match comparable teams against each other, but it doesn't always work out that way.

 

[androcles]

...I always enjoyed our trips to the Virginia Duals in Hampton, before Meechigan took it over and it became the Cliff Keene Duals and then the NWCA tried to market it as a team title replacement for the NCAAs...
...there is only one place where a fan can see the top Division I individuals and teams compete in one three-day extravaganza ... and that's at the annual NCAA WRESTLING TOURNAMENT...!

 

[El-Jefe]

I guess my question would be, then, is why did he take the assigned match last year versus N. C. State? It was not #1 vs. #2, but he went with it as part of the ranking matchups. I don't know. Tom Brands, to me, always seems to be a straight-on guy. It's hard for me to think that he'd make excuses, but, using terminology that is popular, "the optics" aren't good.

Last year was a weird situation. Logically Oklahoma State would not have faced us -- because they had 2 losses (Iowa, NC State). VT had 1 loss (PSU). NC State had 1 loss (VT). All 3 faced good schedules -- in fact, NC State beat Missouri right after losing to VT.

Logically it should've been PSU vs. VT, but we had already beaten them, and the organizers tried to avoid rematches. NC State should've been next, especially after beating the Pokes in Stallwater, but they weren't a conference champ -- insert SEC joke here. Plus Smith (allegedly) threatened to skip the event unless he got PSU, and they're a "traditional power," marketing, etc.

Iowa was next up, and the next best team available team was VT ...

 

[IrishinGA]

Last year was a weird situation. Logically Oklahoma State would not have faced us -- because they had 2 losses (Iowa, NC State). VT had 1 loss (PSU). NC State had 1 loss (VT). All 3 faced good schedules -- in fact, NC State beat Missouri right after losing to VT.

Logically it should've been PSU vs. VT, but we had already beaten them, and the organizers tried to avoid rematches. NC State should've been next, especially after beating the Pokes in Stallwater, but they weren't a conference champ -- insert SEC joke here. Plus Smith (allegedly) threatened to skip the event unless he got PSU, and they're a "traditional power," marketing, etc.

Iowa was next up, and the next best team available team was VT ...

That does not seem to take into account the actual polls from last year.

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/15959

OkSt was ahead NCSt who was ahead of VT in the last poll a year ago.

 

[Ja1339]

This article appears to be the definition of farce.

 

[Brian LB-U]

He didn't put his name on the dotted line, Iowa didn't sign any contracts

Says who and please use "contract" in the context of the NWCA and National Duals. We already know what gets signed and submitted by the coaches isn't a legally binding document. Needless to say, that isn't the point.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

That's not what Dresser said on his podcast yesterday. He basically said they all agreed to it and had to send it (agreement) in..

It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal

 

[El-Jefe]

That does not seem to take into account the actual polls from last year.

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/15959

OkSt was ahead NCSt who was ahead of VT in the last poll a year ago.

Exactly the problem with polls -- results mattered less than reputation.

NC State went into Stallwater and beat the Pokes -- and had a better record -- thus ranked below. VT beat NC State 1 week before the selection, conference champ ahead of the Pack -- ranked below the Pack and the Pokes.

Especially coaches' polls -- coaches don't have the time to watch all the matches. Can't say for wrestling, but in other sports the coaches notoriously give the polls to an intern to fill out.

 

[JasonBryant]

One thing that hammered VT in their poll placement was a loss a few weeks prior to Iowa State, which was ranked in the teens. Yes, there were injured starters, but that was a second loss and as the person who coordinates the coaches poll, the situation regarding how to handle the conference champ with a recent win vs. the team with the better resume was a big part of the problem.

I produce a ballot that gives the coaches EVERYTHING they need to make reliable choices even if they didn't physically watch the match. They have every result. Wins are one column, all losses are in bold and red in another. wins over ranked teams are bolded in blue. They have their record, their win streak (or losing streak), they have another tab with every single team's result in a sortable column. they have the previous week's results in the same manner. There's even a web link to search easier if they don't know how to use a spreadsheet.

Having coordinated the poll since 2005 when it was owned and operated by InterMat (when the NWCA owned it), I've followed an AP-style model based on my time working for a major daily newspaper. This year, the poll was expanded to 16 to prevent outliers from compromising the integrity of the poll as well as if there was a vote so bad, it would be tossed and the average of the other 15 votes would be used in its place.

The argument of where VT and NC State should be in the rankings last year was a valid argument. A 2-loss team with an ugly loss to a team it'd beaten in November or the 1-loss team who beat 2 and 3 on the road (and Missouri). The field was pretty split on that and it showed in the votes.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

http://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sp...as-bowl-style-national-duals-format/97891906/

Horrible journalism. Why not ask the #1 question. If you hate the idea, why'd you put your name on the dotted line? If you sign up for something, shouldn't it be your obligation to see your commitment through?

Basically, he says he likes it for #1 vs #2 but not other than that

Well, the saddest thing, and what shouts the loudest, about how irrelevant and unimportant a "National Dual Championship" is......is the fact that nobody cares what has happened here - nor do they give a $hit about Brands' lame rationalizations and excuse-making. I doubt more than a handful of people have even listened to or read Brands' bloviating in the article above.....and that is more telling than anything else (ditto the fact that #1 and undefeated PSU versus #2 and undefeated Okie State won't even be televised nationally live). Nobody really cares, but what does have a solid cult following and people absolutely do "care about" and attend is the NCAA National Championship Tournament. Essentially, the rest of the nation feels about the same way as Brands and many of the other coaches regarding the NWCA's National Duals Tournament -- they don't dislike it necessarily, they just really couldn't give a $hit about it, nor do they think it's all that important.....and Brands' behavior as well as the lack of media exposure (including not even televising) the #1 v #2 Championship Dual Meet screams everything you need to know, nobody gives a $hit especially relative to the Conference and National Tournaments that will begin in a couple weeks.

 

[tikk10]

Whether Iowa or any school signed a contract to participate is a less meaningful question because I'm pretty sure no school would, unless all schools were similarly legally bound and there was some additional financial incentive (outside the existence of an additional home dual). However, there does appear to be an (unenforceable) agreement between the schools and NWCA to participate as per the guidelines everyone is already aware of and if a coach like Brands steps outside it for what appear to be pretextual reasons. The wrestling community and NWCA would like for it to be more than just another dual but so long as the key players treat it like another dual, there's not much anyone can do about it.

And among the key players are Flo, whose exclusivity relies on their contract to broadcast OSU's regular season duals, but who nevertheless jacked their subscription price by $10 on the basis of how special this dual is.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Whether Iowa or any school signed a contract to participate is a less meaningful question because I'm pretty sure no school would, unless all schools were similarly legally bound and there was some additional financial incentive (outside the existence of an additional home dual). However, there does appear to be an (unenforceable) agreement between the schools and NWCA to participate as per the guidelines everyone is already aware of and if a coach like Brands steps outside it for what appear to be pretextual reasons. The wrestling community and NWCA would like for it to be more than just another dual but so long as the key players treat it like another dual, there's not much anyone can do about it.

And among the key players are Flo, whose exclusivity relies on their contract to broadcast OSU's regular season duals, but who nevertheless jacked their subscription price by $10 on the basis of how special this dual is.

Exactly. The reality is.....if the coaches treat the event with disregard and disrespect and act like it's really nothing but just another dual meet, why should the fans treat it any differently?

 

[Brian LB-U]

http://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sp...as-bowl-style-national-duals-format/97891906/

Horrible journalism. Why not ask the #1 question. If you hate the idea, why'd you put your name on the dotted line? If you sign up for something, shouldn't it be your obligation to see your commitment through?

Basically, he says he likes it for #1 vs #2 but not other than that

Note the author - It's no wonder!!!(TIC).

 

[nitlion6]

...I always enjoyed our trips to the Virginia Duals in Hampton, before Meechigan took it over and it became the Cliff Keene Duals and then the NWCA tried to market it as a team title replacement for the NCAAs...
...there is only one place where a fan can see the top Division I individuals and teams compete in one three-day extravaganza ... and that's at the annual NCAA WRESTLING TOURNAMENT...!

We went to the Virginia Duals twice (snowed in @ home the third time). It was a fun tournament. Tons of quality wrestling, including some terrific high school wrestling.

The tournament provided good entertainment and was a nice trip.

The NWCA got it and initially did a nice job with it. My opinion is when they started moving it the tradition of going to the Virginia Duals was lost and eventually so was some fan support. As the fan support declined the boys in charge attempted to recover the fan interest by making it into something it was not meant to be.

Tis a shame. It used to be a pretty big deal.

 

[IrishinGA]

We went to the Virginia Duals twice (snowed in @ home the third time). It was a fun tournament. Tons of quality wrestling, including some terrific high school wrestling.

The tournament provided good entertainment and was a nice trip.

The NWCA got it and initially did a nice job with it. My opinion is when they started moving it the tradition of going to the Virginia Duals was lost and eventually so was some fan support. As the fan support declined the boys in charge attempted to recover the fan interest by making it into something it was not meant to be.

Tis a shame. It used to be a pretty big deal.

You do realize that the Virginia duals take place still. This year was the 37th edition. This is where VT lost to Iowa State in 2016.

http://virginiaduals.mattalkonline.com/past-champions/

http://virginiaduals.mattalkonline.com/

 

[Real-Lion]

He didn't put his name on the dotted line, Iowa didn't sign any contracts

No. They didn't...HE IS NOT A MAN OF HIS WORD....Hope Mr. Teasdale and others are playing close attention...This is the 2nd year in a row he has pulled this crap...No wonder a lot of Iowa fans want him gone....

 

[WildTurk]

“I think that we need to focus on things that matter to wrestling. I think that the National Duals are not what’s wrong with wrestling,” Brands said. “We need to focus on rules that are simple, that reward exciting, aggressive wrestling.

“And we need to start a Division I program at a Power 5 conference school — Texas, Washington, Florida, Florida State. That’s what we need to do. That’s where we need to focus. It can happen. You start a women’s sport along with it, the headlines will go for months. We focus on little things.”

Which one of you said Brands wasn't an advocate of wrestling?

 

[Pennstate1985]

Brands said. “We need to focus on rules that are simple, that reward exciting, aggressive wrestling.

If that were to happen, Iowa may fall to the second tier...

 

[nitlion6]

You do realize that the Virginia duals take place still. This year was the 37th edition. This is where VT lost to Iowa State in 2016.

http://virginiaduals.mattalkonline.com/past-champions/

http://virginiaduals.mattalkonline.com/

Yep.
Started as Virginia Duals, NWCA took over sponsorship of Virginia Duals, when NWCA decided to become the traveling road show the Virginia Duals continued on without NWCA sponsorship.

One model has been successful, one not so much.

 

[nitlion6]

“I think that we need to focus on things that matter to wrestling. I think that the National Duals are not what’s wrong with wrestling,” Brands said. “We need to focus on rules that are simple, that reward exciting, aggressive wrestling.

“And we need to start a Division I program at a Power 5 conference school — Texas, Washington, Florida, Florida State. That’s what we need to do. That’s where we need to focus. It can happen. You start a women’s sport along with it, the headlines will go for months. We focus on little things.”

Which one of you said Brands wasn't an advocate of wrestling?

Brands loves wrestling, he loves Iowa and Iowa wrestling.
With that said this entire statement was simply a deflection from the point of contention.

 

[Lyco1990]

I would love to see PSU at the Va duals next year. Was fortunate to see my HS and Penn State there while I was stationed in Norfolk.

 

[Cowbell Man]

Brands loves wrestling, he loves Iowa and Iowa wrestling.
With that said this entire statement was simply a deflection from the point of contention.

Anyone who knows me knows I have pointed out to grow this sport there are at least 10 things to change that would help us along. One item alone won't do it. A dual championship alone won't do it. But the ability to all at once is limited.

In this situation Brands is both spot on with his comments and assessment of what needs to be done and completely full of shit for not living up to an agreement I know for a fact he agreed.

To accomplish goals, most people and organizations eat an elephant one ear at a time instead of the whole elephant. Brands can talk about the other changes but to ignore giving this a chance is unfair at best. It isn't a great format and could be tweaked. But the data isn't relevant if it isn't followed. This was a least worth a try even if it won't be the solution going forward.

But imagine if we had just decided to go wrestle in Iowa. Brands would have been screaming about us taking advantage of a situation and turning it into a recruiting visit. Edinboro PA? Coincidence?

 

[Tom McAndrew]

I would love to see PSU at the Va duals next year. Was fortunate to see my HS and Penn State there while I was stationed in Norfolk.

I'd put the chances of that happening at around 0%.

The Virginia Duals take place the 1st or 2nd weekend in January. PSU and the B1G teams are in the meat of their respective conference schedules by the 1st weekend in January. This season, not one B1G school participated in the Virginia Duals. Last season, not one B1G school participated in the Virginia Duals.

Things can always change, but I doubt you'll see PSU in any type of multi-team event in the coming years unless it's scheduled in Nov. or Dec., or over the New Year's holiday. From that point until the B1G tourney, I don't think PSU will participate in a multi-team event. (And while the National Duals are a multi-team event, PSU has only participated in them in recent years when it only involved 1 dual, so the multi aspect of it not a reflection of how many matches any team has to wrestle.)

 

[nitlion6]

Anyone who knows me knows I have pointed out to grow this sport there are at least 10 things to change that would help us along. One item alone won't do it. A dual championship alone won't do it. But the ability to all at once is limited.

In this situation Brands is both spot on with his comments and assessment of what needs to be done and completely full of shit for not living up to an agreement I know for a fact he agreed.

To accomplish goals, most people and organizations eat an elephant one ear at a time instead of the whole elephant. Brands can talk about the other changes but to ignore giving this a chance is unfair at best. It isn't a great format and could be tweaked. But the data isn't relevant if it isn't followed. This was a least worth a try even if it won't be the solution going forward.

But imagine if we had just decided to go wrestle in Iowa. Brands would have been screaming about us taking advantage of a situation and turning it into a recruiting visit. Edinboro PA? Coincidence?

I don't know about the Edinboro trip.

I do know he helped put this model together and agreed to participate. He failed to live up to his agreement.

His statement, while valid it is being used as bullshit against the wall to see if it can stick and deflect.

 

[El-Jefe]

Anyone who knows me knows I have pointed out to grow this sport there are at least 10 things to change that would help us along. One item alone won't do it. A dual championship alone won't do it. But the ability to all at once is limited.

In this situation Brands is both spot on with his comments and assessment of what needs to be done and completely full of shit for not living up to an agreement I know for a fact he agreed.

To accomplish goals, most people and organizations eat an elephant one ear at a time instead of the whole elephant. Brands can talk about the other changes but to ignore giving this a chance is unfair at best. It isn't a great format and could be tweaked. But the data isn't relevant if it isn't followed. This was a least worth a try even if it won't be the solution going forward.

But imagine if we had just decided to go wrestle in Iowa. Brands would have been screaming about us taking advantage of a situation and turning it into a recruiting visit. Edinboro PA? Coincidence?

I'm mostly with this. But one thing I can't get past: if Brands had first choice of destination, why didn't he pick Lehigh instead? Much better talent pool than Erie.

Going down the list sequentially (once VT off the table):
- Cornell: Brands got lucky Tan Tom took them instead of VT. Ithaca isn't as good of a recruiting trip as Lehigh or Edinboro.
- NC State: why they got Michigan instead of Iowa is a good question. Maybe travel ease/cost -- nonstops from Detroit to Raleigh, one-hoppers from Iowa City? (Purely a guess.)
- Lehigh: Rutgers for proximity. But if Tom had that sway, why not?
- South Dakota State: Iowa already beat them 29-8 this year. Bad re-match.
- Edinboro.

 

[Cowbell Man]

I agree Jefe. But I can tell you Cael is not the only coach a little cranky about this change and trip into PA.

 

[El-Jefe]

Understood and I don't blame them.

 

[JasonBryant]

So let me give some backstory and clarification on the Virginia Duals, since it's my wrestling club back home that's been hosting the tournament since 1981.

The event is a fundraiser for the Peninsula Wrestling Association. It's the event that covers the costs for the coaches, travel, singlets, etc. for the PWA, aka the Virginia Duals Wrestling Club. In its heyday, it was one of the very best clubs in the country. Numerous All-Americans at the Cadet & Junior level and a number of college All-Americans. Most recent All-Americans to come out of there was Jon Sioredas and Brian Stith.

So as far as the tournament goes, the Virginia Duals started the dual meet advancement concept in college wrestling. They wrestled for a championship out of a bracket starting in 1981. In 1989, the event's college portion created the National Duals. Three years later, the NWCA and Virginia Duals came to an agreement to rotate the National Duals around the country to showcase college wrestling. The Virginia Duals kept a college division (and later added a small college division). The initial deal (handshake) was the two events would never conflict. Unfortunately facilities the years it was at UNI forced a shift for 2-3 years.

When the NWCA's National Duals went to change its format, it got the buy in from the Big Ten scheduling, which would keep the end of the season calendar open for National Duals qualification. What then happened was the Big Ten started to schedule it's then 12 teams through the Virginia Duals weekend. With 14 teams, the Big Ten sets its schedule in (I believe) two-year pods, although I could be wrong on that.

The only way the Big Ten teams go back to the Virginia Duals is if the Big Ten either doesn't schedule all of its teams the second weekend in January for Friday-Sunday duals. I know I've personally inquired about giving some schools the date option for those who want to compete. I don't make any policy, so as much as I appreciate the Big Ten Network and the conference's support of wrestling, it would be nice if they went back and looked at the rest of the college calendar before just scheduling teams in. The Virginia Duals has its date set for the next three years (and has had the last 8 years publicly posted years before the B1G set its schedule).

The Virginia Duals has had to alter its format, going from a 16-team National Division bracket to a pooled 12-team bracket that still provides advancement, but does guarantee four matches for teams (with no more than 3 in one day).

If the National Duals does fall apart and the Big Ten goes back to leaving that second weekend of January open, we could see the Virginia Duals beef back up to 16 teams. I'm involved in that event, it's what got me into wrestling, so I'd love to see Penn State back in the event as well as some other hammers. It's my "Christmas" since I go back home every year to work the event.

I think Penn State might consider going back considering it's a fundraiser founded by a guy (John Graham) who is a board member of the NWHOF and was the Team Leader for the 1996 Olympic freestyle team. The club itself is well-respected and the hospitality room is the best ever.