Blue Bird discussion

Junglekitty

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Feb 15, 2018
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Recently there has been a ton of wrestling arguments via twitter. It has definitely raised the amount of views for wrestling. The last one I seen was the age old argument about riding time. My belief was always the riding time point should only be added if the top wrestler scored near fall. However, someone mentioned that college should take the freestyle approach. Give the top wrestler 30 or so seconds to work, and if not working towards a turn, they go back to their feet. The time on top would still count toward riding time. Any thoughts on either of these rule changes or other changes anyone would like to see?
 

psualt

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Nov 2, 2014
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I’d be happy if they called them quicker for stalling. It seems like that gets little traction unless you put in a specific rule for it though. I like mat wrestling and don’t like rewarding guys that aren’t good there by putting them back on their feet.
 

dunkej01

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I wish they had MLB or minor league approach that they had tournaments or extra matches to test these ideas.

As we know coaches are passionate and they believe what they believe and they'll go to the mat w that belief.

Take it away from the who's who of arguing and wrestle some "experimental" things outside the approved rules.

And I don't care if that is hard for the angels of the world. Figure it out and make it happen.
 

GogglesPaizano

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Feb 6, 2018
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I like the idea of continuing to reward the skill needed to ride your openents effectively, but with limitations. After 1:00 of time is in the books you can release to neutral without awarding a point for an escape. Likewise after the 1:00 is in the books, the top guy must work actively for a fall or he is first warned then penalized a point for stalling.

I really appreciated the skill Zain possessed on top and don't want that taken away or their being no award for being dominant on top. That said 3-4 minutes of riding time without legitimate attempts at turns is not acceptable either.

They can call it the 'Nolf playing with your food' rule, or 'Nolf-Jordan' rule
 

Junglekitty

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Feb 15, 2018
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I think I would also like to see wrestling take the football approach with redshirts. I believe in football, you're able to play in 4 games and keep your redshirt. I would say let wrestlers compete in 1 tournament (dual or individual) and 2 dual matches without burning their redshirt.
 

johnstownsteel

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Aug 2, 2013
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I think I would also like to see wrestling take the football approach with redshirts. I believe in football, you're able to play in 4 games and keep your redshirt. I would say let wrestlers compete in 1 tournament (dual or individual) and 2 dual matches without burning their redshirt.
I’m on board with this one.
 

GogglesPaizano

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Feb 6, 2018
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That’s a great idea!

I would like to take full credit and say it is 100% mine but some of it spawns from an earlier discussion where I proposed a 3 Pt takedown to solve the lack of points disparity created by catch and release. I think the soft cap of riding time at one minute followed by a free release thereafter solves both problems.
 

RoarLions1

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May 11, 2012
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I’d be happy if they called them quicker for stalling. It seems like that gets little traction unless you put in a specific rule for it though. I like mat wrestling and don’t like rewarding guys that aren’t good there by putting them back on their feet.
Let's go back to this rule as the only use of riding time, from 1928; "If no fall has resulted after the end of the regular period of wrestling, the referee shall award the bout to the wrestler who shows greater wrestling ability and aggressiveness, provided the wrestler has a riding time-advantage of at least one-minute."

Seriously, this discussion is almost as old as me, and I do not see it changing. Quoting psualt shows my position exactly.

The history;
1941: 1 point for each minute of time advantage, with a maximum of 2 points
1955: Riding Time Advantage worth 1 point for 1 minute or more
1966: 1 point for each minute of time advantage, with a maximum of 2 points
1970: Riding Time Advantage worth 1 point for 1 minute or more
No changes since
 

CSauertiegPSU

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Oct 9, 2013
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I think I’m in the minority on this one but I enjoy the premise of riding time and enjoy watching the battle to build RT/Escape. I think maybe we could ask refs to be a bit more intuitive with regards to top stalling, particularly when I guy gets to his feet and the top guy just runs him OOB to get a restart (looking at you, AJ Ferrari), but on the whole I think the current rules are a pretty damn good rule set. Don’t want to lose on RT? Don’t get ridden for over a minute.
 

GantryZ

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Jul 12, 2013
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Give the top wrestler 30 or so seconds to work, and if not working towards a turn, they go back to their feet. The time on top would still count toward riding time.
Think of just about every tie breaker you've watched - if all a top person has to do is ride for 30 seconds then they'll embrace every stall ride technique to prevent their opponent from escaping.

If you incorporate any form of "stand them up after XXX" for top/bottom you have to eliminate the escape point as well. Otherwise the staling will be worse on top.
 
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El-Jefe

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Jul 27, 2012
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I think I’m in the minority on this one but I enjoy the premise of riding time and enjoy watching the battle to build RT/Escape. I think maybe we could ask refs to be a bit more intuitive with regards to top stalling, particularly when I guy gets to his feet and the top guy just runs him OOB to get a restart (looking at you, AJ Ferrari), but on the whole I think the current rules are a pretty damn good rule set. Don’t want to lose on RT? Don’t get ridden for over a minute.
Thank you for posting Tony Nelson's perspective.
 

District four

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Feb 16, 2018
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I think I’m in the minority on this one but I enjoy the premise of riding time and enjoy watching the battle to build RT/Escape. I think maybe we could ask refs to be a bit more intuitive with regards to top stalling, particularly when I guy gets to his feet and the top guy just runs him OOB to get a restart (looking at you, AJ Ferrari), but on the whole I think the current rules are a pretty damn good rule set. Don’t want to lose on RT? Don’t get ridden for over a minute.
I think when they reach a minute they give a point to the rider and go back to neutral. They should do this for each takedown as it would allow the rider to accrue more points and force the person being ridden to pick up offense as they aren't just losing one point but the possibility of several points plus the break in action after a minute gives everyone a fresh start
 

findtheStrength

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Nov 4, 2016
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I think any changes that can decrease the number of times I watch a guy in bad position hang on for stalemate is a good idea. I am not opposed to seeing the top guy hit for stalling more often if the bottom guy is working to improve and the top guy is working for a stalemate. I hate to see the riding time counting when the two wrestlers are basically back to neutral and no longer mat wrestling
 
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CSauertiegPSU

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I think when they reach a minute they give a point to the rider and go back to neutral. They should do this for each takedown as it would allow the rider to accrue more points and force the person being ridden to pick up offense as they aren't just losing one point but the possibility of several points plus the break in action after a minute gives everyone a fresh start
Think this would be bad for the flow of the match. Particularly in the first period if there’s an early takedown. Let a match play out without artificially inserting stoppages IMO
 

NoVa Lion

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I think I’m in the minority on this one but I enjoy the premise of riding time and enjoy watching the battle to build RT/Escape. I think maybe we could ask refs to be a bit more intuitive with regards to top stalling, particularly when I guy gets to his feet and the top guy just runs him OOB to get a restart (looking at you, AJ Ferrari), but on the whole I think the current rules are a pretty damn good rule set. Don’t want to lose on RT? Don’t get ridden for over a minute.
The bolded part of your post is already stalling in the rules.

Art. 10. Stalling by Pushing or Pulling — Offensive or Defensive Position. Pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds so as to force a restart
 

El-Jefe

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Jul 27, 2012
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Would you rather watch Tony or Suriano vs Fix?
False choice. Nelson was by his own admission strategically a blocker and smaller on feet, deliberately wanted 0-0 after 1 in order to win by the Stall Ride of Doom.

Incentivize top stalling --> get more neutral stalling too.
 
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mhs103

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Jan 26, 2020
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Eliminating riding time will not increase attempts to secure back points and falls. Rather it will increase the incidence of catch and release attempts until the requisite differential is achieved to earn a tech fall, one of the most boring aspects of folk style wrestling.

If the bottom wrestler really wants to avoid riding time being awarded to his opponent, perhaps he should try something really novel--- a reversal, a move not often seen in Rec Hall.
 
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El-Jefe

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If the bottom wrestler really wants to avoid riding time being awarded to his opponent, perhaps he should try something really novel--- a reversal, a move not often seen in Rec Hall.
Pin this for the next time a wrestler loses a match by going for reversals on bottom. Like Verk did against Maruca.
 

GogglesPaizano

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I like watching the skill of a good ride and I like RT for the first minute, but I am not a fan of double boots in for 2 solid minutes. If you are not aggressively working towards a pin or back points they should kill double boots after 20 seconds. There is no defense once they are in deep and I have seen stalling called on bottom with double boots in, which is doublely cruel.
 
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McScoreley

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I saw Blue Bird discussion and thought this had to be about Terry Brands and his friendly waitress.
popcorn-lurking.gif
 

CSauertiegPSU

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Pin this for the next time a wrestler loses a match by going for reversals on bottom. Like Verk did against Maruca.
Nothing drives me more insane than kids refusing to get their 1 and then getting put back under after the position is eventually stalemated. Especially since more often than not, a reversal and eventual escape leads to the same exchange of points.
 

a_mshaffer

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I don't like the 'still in control' feature when not in control thus forcing the escape vs reversal. What happens if I have you in a cradle on your back for 90 seconds and can't get the fall? I give up after 60 and start on my feet? So it isn't riding time, it is if you can't pin someone in xx seconds, go to neutral?
 

SWPA

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Mar 9, 2017
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I like watching the skill of a good ride and I like RT for the first minute, but I am not a fan of double boots in for 2 solid minutes. If you are not aggressively working towards a pin or back points they should kill double boots after 20 seconds. There is no defense once they are in deep and I have seen stalling called on bottom with double boots in which is doublely cruel.
You weren't a fan of Zain his freshmen year then?