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Best Ever PSU Wrestler

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MSU158

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Nov 21, 2014
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I posted this over on themat and figured it would actually be a good one for you guys:

If you go ONLY when officially wrestling for PSU, who would you pick? The Retherford topic had me thinking.

Who are the top candidates and how many are not under the Sanderson era?

Here are the handful of guys I think have an argument that were not under Sanderson:

Andy Matter- He was limited by the no freshman rule, plus he took an upset pin in the 2nd round(soph year) and couldn't wrestle back due to the old repechage rules and that was his only loss that season. 59-2 going DNP,1st,1st

Kerry McCoy- His freshman year hurts here as he went 19-17, but after that, WOW. He went 132-1 finishing 1st,3rd,1st

Jim Martin- 155-9-4 4,2,1,3

Sanshiro Abe-125-15 4,3,2,1

Now here are the Sanderson guys:

Zain Retherford- 126-3 with a nearly 75% bonus rate and finishes of 5th,1st,1st,1st

Ed Ruth-136-3 with a bonus rate of nearly 80% and finishes of 3rd,1st,1st,1st

D. Taylor-134-3 with a bonus rate of 93% and finishes of 2nd,1st,2nd,1st

Q. Wright-116-23 with a bonus rate over 50% and finishes of 6th,1st,2nd,1st

F. Molinaro-121-29 with a bonus rate over 50% and finishes of 8th,5th,2nd,1st

N. Megaludis-119-20 with a bonus rate over 50% and finishes of 2nd,2nd,3rd,1st

Finally: You now have a couple guys trying to finish their careers as 4X finalists and 3X Champs

Jason Nolf- entering his final season with an 86-3* record(asterisk due to a fluky injury while leading), a bonus rate of 88% and finishes of 2nd,1st,1st,? Nolf has a legit chance to have a 100% bonus rate his final season. If this happens, he will have a very compelling argument.

Bo Nickal-entering his final season with an 90-3 record, a bonus rate of 75% and finishes of 2nd,1st,1st,?

You then have V. Joseph with a chance at being their 1st 4Xer and Hall could match the 4X Finalist and 3X Champs.

Honestly, I am leaning towards Nolf, if he can run the table with a 95%+ bonus rate.

Who would you pick?
 
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When he runs the table this year, I don't see how it can be anyone but Nolf.

Even if Cenzo wins 4, there will still be a compelling argument for Nolf.
 
dicemen99 said:
When he runs the table this year, I don't see how it can be anyone but Nolf.

Even if Cenzo wins 4, there will still be a compelling argument for Nolf.
Click to expand...

While Nolf is more fun to watch the VJ (in my opinion) it's hard to argue with 4 titles. VJ would have earned those 4 titles by beating the person in the NCAA finals twice that gave Nolf 2 of his legit losses. If we are saying more consistent and bonus point machine then Nolf definitely has that over VJ
 
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I think I could make a convincing argument for just about any of Nolf, Zain, DT, Ruth, Bo or Cenzo being #1. Nolf wins the eye test, I've never seen anything like him. Cenzo may be 4 time and prevented IMar from being 4x who prevented Nolf from being 4x. Bo has finals wins over 2 former NC, one to win a team title. If I need one guy to win one match, I'm taking Zain and he didn't lose for 3 years and has the best win (opponent had the best credentials)
 
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One, it was a shock to see McCoy lose in Chapel Hill in 1994. Save that, he would have gone undefeated for three years at Hwt. One loss in his career at that weight class.

Two, every time I see Taylor's bonus percentage, I am amazed. If he hadn't gotten pinned his freshman year and lost his head against Dake his junior year, you could make a very convincing argument that he was the best collegiate wrestler of all time. A fluke pin and a one point loss is all that separates him from that. And he piled up more team points than did Dake in 2013. I know "but for" would make a difference for a lot of guys, but ...
 
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y2jriden said:
I think I could make a convincing argument for just about any of Nolf, Zain, DT, Ruth, Bo or Cenzo being #1. Nolf wins the eye test, I've never seen anything like him. Cenzo may be 4 time and prevented IMar from being 4x who prevented Nolf from being 4x. Bo has finals wins over 2 former NC, one to win a team title. If I need one guy to win one match, I'm taking Zain and he didn't lose for 3 years and has the best win (opponent had the best credentials)
Click to expand...

I think Nolf and Zain are pretty equal in terms of that - one guy to win one match. If Zain redshirts freshman year like Nolf, pretty much worse case is that he ends up 2,1,1,1 like Jason with two losses to an all-timer that he also defeated and one other "fluky" type loss (even though Zain's loss was to Port who was really good, it was a tough spot in the bracket and I would take Zain most times to win that match). Really the Fire and Ice of all time. I think they one-upped Ruth-Taylor as a duo. And Bo is right there too -will probably finish 2-1-1-1, but less dominant and more prone to a loss than any of Zain, Nolf, Ruth or Taylor. Well Maybe not Ruth. Would equate him with Ed. Both guys were my favorites of their time there. Ed over Taylor and Bo over the others, in terms of fandom but not rank as all-timers.
 
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matter7172 said:
One, it was a shock to see McCoy lose in Chapel Hill in 1994. Save that, he would have gone undefeated for three years at Hwt. One loss in his career at that weight class.

Two, every time I see Taylor's bonus percentage, I am amazed. If he hadn't gotten pinned his freshman year and lost his head against Dake his junior year, you could make a very convincing argument that he was the best collegiate wrestler of all time. A fluke pin and a one point loss is all that separates him from that. And he piled up more team points than did Dake in 2013. I know "but for" would make a difference for a lot of guys, but ...
Click to expand...
Not a fluke pin. Yeah, DT could have won that match more than a few times if they wrestled it 10 times - maybe 4, maybe 5, maybe 7, IDK - but definitely not a fluke pin. Bubba could win that match again against DT very easily. I remember sitting in the stands and being very uncomfortable during that match with how even it was - wasn't used to that with DT that year.
 
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dicemen99 said:
When he runs the table this year, I don't see how it can be anyone but Nolf.

Even if Cenzo wins 4, there will still be a compelling argument for Nolf.
Click to expand...

But Cenzo would have 2x defeated the guy that stopped Nolf. Have to go Cenzo then
 
I'm slightly surprised seeing that Ruth had more wins, higher bonus rate and a better placement his freshman year than Zain. I imagine Zain would have done better than 5th if he redshirted his true freshman year and increased his bonus rate, but still somewhat surprising when I first looked at the #s.
 
dicemen99 said:
Not a fluke pin. Yeah, DT could have won that match more than a few times if they wrestled it 10 times - maybe 4, maybe 5, maybe 7, IDK - but definitely not a fluke pin. Bubba could win that match again against DT very easily. I remember sitting in the stands and being very uncomfortable during that match with how even it was - wasn't used to that with DT that year.
Click to expand...

How many times has DT been pinned in his last 1000 matches?
 
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The hidden blessing is we can have a real debate, with more than a handful of transcendent guys. Some other nearby teams might be limited to a discussion with only 2 candidates.
 
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matter7172 said:
One, it was a shock to see McCoy lose in Chapel Hill in 1994. Save that, he would have gone undefeated for three years at Hwt. One loss in his career at that weight class.

Two, every time I see Taylor's bonus percentage, I am amazed. If he hadn't gotten pinned his freshman year and lost his head against Dake his junior year, you could make a very convincing argument that he was the second best collegiate wrestler of all time. A fluke pin and a one point loss is all that separates him from that. And he piled up more team points than did Dake in 2013. I know "but for" would make a difference for a lot of guys, but ...
Click to expand...

FIFY ;)
 
I will take Nolf if he runs the table. The ability to wrestle different styles puts him over the top. However, we need to ask Spyker who wins in the room or who beats Nico the worse if compared to VJ (if he runs the table as well).
But... too many to choose from Bo, Zain... I love DT but he can't be #1. Ruth is right there as well. Arghhh.... how do you rule Zain out?... There isn't an answer.... only the proper question - PSUs best ever wrestlerS are...
 
#1stWorldProblems

My heart says Taylor, for now, even with only 2 NCs. I too, will probably change my vote at the end of next season.
 
mcruny42 said:
I'm slightly surprised seeing that Ruth had more wins, higher bonus rate and a better placement his freshman year than Zain. I imagine Zain would have done better than 5th if he redshirted his true freshman year and increased his bonus rate, but still somewhat surprising when I first looked at the #s
Click to expand...

For some reason a segment of the PSU fan base downplay Ruth as a wrestler. They attribute Ruth's success to freakish physical talent because he always made it look easy. If it looks easy, he must not be working hard. He looks disinterested/isn't showing enough emotion so he must not care.

It's been my experience that when things look easy it's because someone's been busting their hump practicing.

Based on evidence at hand, my vote is for Ruth all day long.
 
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manatree said:
For some reason a segment of the PSU fan base downplay Ruth as a wrestler. They attribute Ruth's success to freakish physical talent because he always made it look easy. If it looks easy, he must not be working hard. He looks disinterested/isn't showing enough emotion so he must not care.

It's been my experience that when things look easy it's because someone's been busting their hump practicing.

Based on evidence at hand, my vote is for Ruth all day long.
Click to expand...


What he did to Aumuchastegui the following year after losing to him was about the biggest drubbing you'll see. He went out to prove he was better than him and certainly did. Also, finishing 3rd his freshman year was a tremendous show of heart. Some guys lose in the championship bracket and lose motivation knowing they won't be champ. He gutted it out and came back and took 3rd. And his weight class was certainly difficult that year.
 
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Wins and losses are only one criteria and Nolf, Bo, Zain, Ruth, and DT all have or will finish with similar records. Assuming their basic statistical equality, of those five whose matches would you most regret missing? Each has pushed the boundaries of the sport in some way but Nolf has significantly transcended it. We'll all tell Nolf stories, more than any other wrestler, for years.

That said, if you expanded the criteria beyond D1, Nolf, Bo, Zain have miles to go to reach the level DT is wrestling at right now. If DT grabs a world and Olympic gold it'll be hard to not refer to him as the 'Best PSU Wrestler Ever.'

Too early to consider Cenzo and Hall but they still have some room, but not much, to make a case. Even if Cenzo goes 4x he'll have taken some iffy losses and kept many more close.
 
take a look at who each of these guys beat on their runs.
 
y2jriden said:
What he did to Aumuchastegui the following year after losing to him was about the biggest drubbing you'll see. He went out to prove he was better than him and certainly did. Also, finishing 3rd his freshman year was a tremendous show of heart. Some guys lose in the championship bracket and lose motivation knowing they won't be champ. He gutted it out and came back and took 3rd. And his weight class was certainly difficult that year.
Click to expand...

Gutted it out with a knee that went dead against Aumuchastegui, too. I think the sentiment (very mild, though) is the feeling if he turned it on during all his matches, he could have had a bonus rate similar to DT's. It's something of a petty complaint, but not totally untrue.
 
Zain = pain, but ... Nolf is a documented ball smasher - who else has that on his resume?

My phone won't let me post the video but I am sure someone can accommodate below.
 
I love Jason Nolf, Bo, Zain, Cenzo, Eddie Ruth, Andy Matter, I watched Quientin grow up into a Penn State wrestling icon. I was talking to Coach Rhodes a couple years ago at the Grange Fair and we were sharing Quientin stories.

4 time finalist, 2 time champion, 2 time Hodge winner, current USA team member, all the time 24/7 Penn State University and wrestling program ambassador and because from an importance to the program that has been built in just a decade standpoint it is and will always be David "Magic Man" Taylor.
 
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MSU158 said:
I posted this over on themat and figured it would actually be a good one for you guys:

If you go ONLY when officially wrestling for PSU, who would you pick? The Retherford topic had me thinking.

Who are the top candidates and how many are not under the Sanderson era?

Here are the handful of guys I think have an argument that were not under Sanderson:

Andy Matter- He was limited by the no freshman rule, plus he took an upset pin in the 2nd round(soph year) and couldn't wrestle back due to the old repechage rules and that was his only loss that season. 59-2 going DNP,1st,1st

Kerry McCoy- His freshman year hurts here as he went 19-17, but after that, WOW. He went 132-1 finishing 1st,3rd,1st

Jim Martin- 155-9-4 4,2,1,3

Sanshiro Abe-125-15 4,3,2,1

Now here are the Sanderson guys:

Zain Retherford- 126-3 with a nearly 75% bonus rate and finishes of 5th,1st,1st,1st

Ed Ruth-136-3 with a bonus rate of nearly 80% and finishes of 3rd,1st,1st,1st

D. Taylor-134-3 with a bonus rate of 93% and finishes of 2nd,1st,2nd,1st

Q. Wright-116-23 with a bonus rate over 50% and finishes of 6th,1st,2nd,1st

F. Molinaro-121-29 with a bonus rate over 50% and finishes of 8th,5th,2nd,1st

N. Megaludis-119-20 with a bonus rate over 50% and finishes of 2nd,2nd,3rd,1st

Finally: You now have a couple guys trying to finish their careers as 4X finalists and 3X Champs

Jason Nolf- entering his final season with an 86-3* record(asterisk due to a fluky injury while leading), a bonus rate of 88% and finishes of 2nd,1st,1st,? Nolf has a legit chance to have a 100% bonus rate his final season. If this happens, he will have a very compelling argument.

Bo Nickal-entering his final season with an 90-3 record, a bonus rate of 75% and finishes of 2nd,1st,1st,?

You then have V. Joseph with a chance at being their 1st 4Xer and Hall could match the 4X Finalist and 3X Champs.

Honestly, I am leaning towards Nolf, if he can run the table with a 95%+ bonus rate.

Who would you pick?
Click to expand...
I pick Andy Matter....because he's my age :rolleyes:
 
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Great topic and lots of good posts, but we will never come to a final agreement because everyone has a different definition of greatest. Hard to argue with any of Zain, Ruth, DT, Q, Matter, McCoy, Martin and soon to come Nolf, Nickal, Hall and Cenzo. They were ALL GREAT.
 
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tikk10 said:
Wins and losses are only one criteria and Nolf, Bo, Zain, Ruth, and DT all have or will finish with similar records. Assuming their basic statistical equality, of those five whose matches would you most regret missing? Each has pushed the boundaries of the sport in some way but Nolf has significantly transcended it. We'll all tell Nolf stories, more than any other wrestler, for years.

That said, if you expanded the criteria beyond D1, Nolf, Bo, Zain have miles to go to reach the level DT is wrestling at right now. If DT grabs a world and Olympic gold it'll be hard to not refer to him as the 'Best PSU Wrestler Ever.'

Too early to consider Cenzo and Hall but they still have some room, but not much, to make a case. Even if Cenzo goes 4x he'll have taken some iffy losses and kept many more close.
Click to expand...

Cenzo may have some iffy losses, but he has beaten a two time champ (four time finalist) with three careers losses. DT didn't beat anyone close to that in college. I'm not even sure Ruth beat anyone close to the level of IMAR. Maybe Gabe Dean? Zain, Nolf, Cenzo and Bo all have better wins than DT and Ruth. They both made it look so easy, but I think they are like 4 and 5 on the list if the other guys finish their careers with NCAA titles. I would put Zain #1 right now since he wrestled as a true freshman. If ( a very big if) Cenzo ends up with four titles how can he not be #1? He's not nearly as flashy as the other guys, but four titles with two of them coming against IMAR would be hard to beat.
 
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Another point for Nolf, he completely changed his wrestling style at nationals last year and still no one was close to beating him. Normally he gives up a takedown here or there as a trade off for scoring 15-20 crazy points. At nationals, he wrestled a more traditional bide your time, set up your takedown and no one is taking me down approach. Leads me to believe that most takedowns he's ever given up is because he's allowed it.

He could end this whole conversation by not wrestling a 7 minute match next year. That's not impossible that he does that. Win every match by TF or fall
 
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matter7172 said:
I predict within 10 years, it will be 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e, 1f, 1g, 1h, 1i and 1h.
Click to expand...
So since you voted twice for 1h, we know where you stand !;)

Regardless of any stats, I would go with Nolf. I just find his style so entertaining and continuously have to rewatch his matches just to figure out what he had just done. He is amazing.
 
y2jriden said:
I think I could make a convincing argument for just about any of Nolf, Zain, DT, Ruth, Bo or Cenzo being #1. Nolf wins the eye test, I've never seen anything like him. Cenzo may be 4 time and prevented IMar from being 4x who prevented Nolf from being 4x. Bo has finals wins over 2 former NC, one to win a team title. If I need one guy to win one match, I'm taking Zain and he didn't lose for 3 years and has the best win (opponent had the best credentials)
Click to expand...
DAMN! WE GOOD!
 
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