Berge Article - SIAP
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If we can get him a 6th year and he's willing to stay longer, I think it's a good idea. Not going to sugarcoat it, I know his conditioning is almost nonexistent and his wrestling is super rusty on top of that but a loss to Quinner at 157 weeks before B1Gs is not a good sign. If it was November, I would say there's time, feels like there is none right now.
Not too concerned. I believe if he was healthy enough to wrestle last weekend, he’ll be in there this weekend unless there was some kind of set back.
I doubt they would have ran him out there against tOSU if he wasn’t fully cleared and wanted to go.
A few weeks of conditioning and no doubt he steals a spot at B1Gs. He’s too good.
I doubt they would have ran him out there against tOSU if he wasn’t fully cleared and wanted to go.
A few weeks of conditioning and no doubt he steals a spot at B1Gs. He’s too good.
So you’re saying he can go unless he can’t? Thanks!
I am not sure it might not just be best to shut the kid down even if having him on the mat gives us a much better chance at a championship. This kind of head injury has to be taken very seriously which it looks like the staff has done. What a contrast between Cael, and the Brands and Tan Tom, who routinely imply their wrestlers might not be “tough enough” to fight through pain.
All ribbing aside, the problem is that the previous time Berge wrestled, we all could have and probably did think the same thing: we expect him to continue wrestling unless he can’t. And then he did not wrestle. So this time is really no different to that previous time. We can all guess but nobody knows.So you’re saying he can go unless he can’t? Thanks!
I doubt if any BIG coach takes concussion issues lightly. Long gone are the days of "how many fingers do I have up". Each NCAA DI school has a written concussion protocol and they can be accessed here:
http://www.ncaa.org/sport-science-institute/concussion-safety-protocol-management
I'm thinking the response from Cael about whether he can go has something to do with the headaches that come along with bad concussions. Looks like Berge can wrestle physically but those headaches can be terrifying I trust Cael would never put him in harm's way and if he can't go then I hope he heals completely. Sounds like a great kid and someone who will be a great leader on the team the next few years
The simpler answer -- and the one backed by evidence -- is that Cael is monitoring Berge's conditioning since it's not ideal.
We saw on Saturday that Berge wore down.
We also saw Cael face a similar situation a few years ago with the Altons making late-season returns from injury.
We saw on Saturday that Berge wore down.
We also saw Cael face a similar situation a few years ago with the Altons making late-season returns from injury.
To the extent a medical hardship was ever an option, forget it now. Once he wrestled on Saturday, this year is official.
You think? I thought Cael basically said it was moving towards if a guy doesn't wrestle at the conference tournament you had a shot at one. And the way they handed them out to Cassar and Rasheed I gotta think that is the case.
The purpose of the medical redshirt is to account for 2 years lost to injury. If you compete in February, you did not lose a year to injury.
Cassar did not compete at all in both 2016 and 2017 as a result of 2 shoulder surgeries, and he withdrew from school for part of that time. Rasheed missed most of the 2015 and 2017. In 2015, he competed only at the F&M Open on 1/3 (he was known to be recovering from a HS shoulder injury). In 2017, his last match was 12/4. Their cases do not apply to Berge.
The NCAA rule (as Cowbell points out every time) is that the 6th year is only when 2 years are lost, with neither is for a planned redshirt. (Meaning that if he shirts because he was injured, OK, but if he was shirting anyway, too bad.) Given the way the NCAA enforces its own rule, there was a chance of Berge getting a 6th year before the Ohio State match -- but after he wrestled, that is a Dumb and Dumber chance.
Also, "moving toward" =/= "current state." Until it becomes a written rule or is granted, it doesn't exist. And you can't pre-apply for it, have to wait until after the season ends. Withholding Berge now in the hope of something that doesn't exist is a plan to throw away a year of his college career.
Come on. For his best health interests Brands sat Murin against Petcher and Lee. He kept Stoll on the bench against Snyder, even with victory still within reach. In the interest of maintaining good health Tom won't bring his squad to State College except when the without heart Big10 conference insists.
This is a truly awful take on so many levels.
First, as if any fan has any clue about what is best for Berge. He has competed, therefore he has been cleared medically. Barring credible evidence of a relapse, this is virtue signaling concern. Trust the coaches and medical staff.
Second, as if Cael has never publicly questioned the toughness of any of his guys.
Third, as if Brands and Tan Tom actually force their guys to wrestle in pain over their doctor's advice, as opposed to talking tough. It's a terribly brutal sport, with guys on every team fighting thru injury. But neither of these coaches is Tim Beckman.
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12.8.4 Hardship Waiver. A student-athlete may be granted an additional year of competition by the conference or the Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement for reasons of "hardship." Hardship is defined as an incapacity resulting from an injury or illness that has occurred under all of the following conditions:
(a) The incapacitating injury or illness occurs in one of the four seasons of intercollegiate competition at any two-year or four-year collegiate institutions or occurs after the first day of classes in the student-athlete's senior year in high school;
(b) The injury or illness occurs prior to the first competition of the second half of the playing season that concludes with the NCAA championship in that sport (see Bylaw 12.8.4.2.4) and results in incapacity to compete for the remainder of that playing season;
(c) Team sports doesn't apply here so I left it out so this post isn't 2 pages long.
(d) In individual sports, the injury or illness occurs when the student-athlete has not participated in more than three dates of competition or 30 percent (whichever number is greater) of the maximum permissible number of dates of competition as set forth in Bylaw 17 plus one date for a conference championship (e.g., gymnastics: 13+1=14, wrestling: 16+1=17), regardless of whether the team participates in the conference championship, provided the institution is a member of a conference and the conference holds a championship event in the applicable sport. Dates of competition that are exempted per Bylaw 17 (e.g., alumni contests, foreign team in the United States) from the maximum permissible number of dates of competition do not count toward the number of dates in which the student-athlete has participated.
So under the current rule Berge wouldn't qualify because his case doesn't meet criteria (b).
Here's the link.
https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/bylaw?ruleId=7719
EDIT: Here's the link to the latest proposal to amend the current bylaw. Status is "tabled" or postponed likely to be discussed at a later date. The proposal completely abolishes requirement (b). This must be what Cael was referencing.
https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/proposalView?id=102970
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I must say that I agree with pretty much every one of your posts. This one however I have reservations. I feel we are in very new territory when it comes to concussions. The Understanding and treatment is changing pretty rapidly. If Berge suffered no symptoms from exercising and/or practice room wrestling....that is one base line. To use that baseline to justify putting him in a match situation in front of bright lights and 15,000+ shouting fans may produce a different reaction. If he in fact suffered differently under those different conditions Saturday Night...….I could very well see logical evidence that would.....if he shut down after that match......show a medical justification for shutting him down and medically justifying an additional year. We felt comfortable in sending him out but the results were not as we hoped and preclude him from safely wrestling again this year. The NCAA's recourse would be to argue against the latest data on concussions. Not the side I would be betting on.
As I noted at length earlier on another post,m daughter lost the permission to play contact sports her sophomore year in high school. After 3rd concussion it became an issue of not being allowed by doctors orders. I considered seeking 2nd opinion at U of Pitt .(Note ,U Pitt ,Atlanta Institute?and Mayo clinic are 3 of the best institutions in concussion research. A few years ago Sidney Crosby was treating at U of Pitt with limited improvement and decided to go to Atlanta which did more with eye exercises to help symptoms) After meeting with numerous doctors we deemed it was time to move on with her future.
To read the post about mismanaging a sixth year is probably not Brady and his family biggest concern currently.
Let's just see how it plays out the remainder of this year and the start of next season.
I just hope he gets to continue his career.
To read the post about mismanaging a sixth year is probably not Brady and his family biggest concern currently.
Let's just see how it plays out the remainder of this year and the start of next season.
I just hope he gets to continue his career.
It use to be the NCAA rarely gave out a 6th year, now they give them out like candy. The actual request for a 6th year does no occur until their athlete's eligibility has expired or is expiring, that would be 2 years from now for Berge. Who knows how the NCAA will be ruling in a few years and for that matter if Berge even wants a 6th year.
He wrestle 2 times , do really think the NCAA would risk taking heat on concussion. Berge would get an extra year. This the era of a kindler gentler ncaa.
"Kinder gentler NCAA" is supposition. We don't know that. And Cael cannot ask for that in advance.
If he did not suffer a setback -- which nobody has credibly said he has -- then he is still medically cleared to wrestle. How does anyone expect the NCAA to grant an extra year to a wrestler who (a) wrestled so late in the year, (b) is medically cleared to continue wrestling?
Expecting this is like expecting Scarlett Johansson in my bedroom uninvited.
Steve Micic says huh?
Micic was given the extra year (2 maybe??) with his transfer. Now of course there may be a Michigan rule in the NCAA rulebook as there is in the Big10 rulebook, but still Micic is an example of knowing ahead of time.
In 2013-14 he was 15-3 wrestling unattached as a RS Fr.
In 2014-15 he went 29-6 overall and reached AA status.
In 2015-16 he went 32-4 overall and again became an AA.
In 2016-17 he was an AA with a 30-6 record
In 2017-18 injury
in 2018-19 he was national champ.
When it comes to the NCAA I don't think there are any rules that are in black and white.
They have already gotten away from the 2 years requirement. If you miss one year now, you get a 6th year. Kemerer only missed last season and previously redshirted but everyone expects him to get a 6th year under the more relaxed criteria.
Amazingly, Gravina actually wrestled in second half of the season B1G duals in 5 seasons,which just staggers my mind.
So it's a given the invitation would make a difference?
I agree. Cael has questioned toughness in public but its rather cryptic when he does.
and I don’t believe for a minute that Ryan and Brands tell a concussed wrestler to push thru the pain. As rivals we give other coaches a raft of shit and with antics it is duly earned. But really, the implication that these two care about themselves and winning more than the welfare of their roster is simply not true and unfair.
One never knows the result of an invitation until an invitation is extended.So it's a given the invitation would make a difference?
This is correct. I have stated the rules and the process by which it works. The variation like Ashnault is weird and we all said it at the time. So it’s not like Berge CANT apply for the extra year. He can apply. He just does not fit the criteria. But clearly that also means he still might be granted. Still...it’s not like that is a conversation the NCAA will rule on for a Soph in season.
What isn't known is in 2013-14 was there medical documentation for something that can be determined as injurious?
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