ADVERTISEMENT

Baseball fans

upstatelion

Active Member
Aug 16, 2020
25
85
1
From the hank aaron thread its obvious there are a lot of big time baseball fans on the board. I was a huge fan in the 1970s and 1980s and i really loved reading all of the bill james stats books. But the 1990s strike and steroids just killed it for me. I never would have thought that i could lose my intetest but its just not the same. I catch a game from time to time and still play softball but nothing like the old days. I could not even tell you who won the cy young award last year. Its really sad. Anyone else have this happen to them?
 
I’m 45. Still very much enjoy it but it’s one sport where the advanced statistics approach has made it less enjoyable to watch.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jp3272 and bison13
From the hank aaron thread its obvious there are a lot of big time baseball fans on the board. I was a huge fan in the 1970s and 1980s and i really loved reading all of the bill james stats books. But the 1990s strike and steroids just killed it for me. I never would have thought that i could lose my intetest but its just not the same. I catch a game from time to time and still play softball but nothing like the old days. I could not even tell you who won the cy young award last year. Its really sad. Anyone else have this happen to them?

I am the same way and I think a lot of people are and I wonder if anyone has done a systematic study into why this is so. As I recall, players switching teams so often was one thing that turned me off, and the strikes and constant acrimony between the owners and the players too. But I don't know if stuff like that is really why baseball lost popularity of if there are other larger societal factors at work.
 
Baseball is the DNA of America. It was our first professional sport, as far back as the Civil War. If you want to understand America and Americans, you have to understand baseball.

Baseball is buried in our history of immigration, our wars, our economy, our history, our life. Presidents throw out the first ball on opening day, and they don’t throw out a football or a basketball when those seasons begin.

Baseball is embedded in our very beings.
 
I’m 45. Still very much enjoy it but it’s one sport where the advanced statistics approach has made it less enjoyable to watch.
I sound like an old man, but you really make a good point about the modern game. I'll turn on a yankee game and aaron judge comes up. First he takes a fastball right down the middle for strike one. Then he works the count full, chasing pitches that are much harder to hit than that first fastball. Then he fouls off 4 or 5 more pitches. Then, still swinging for the fences, he strikes out, or he might walk. I get it, he's running up the pitch count and statisticians have shown that's the best way to score, but it makes for a slow game.
 
From the hank aaron thread its obvious there are a lot of big time baseball fans on the board. I was a huge fan in the 1970s and 1980s and i really loved reading all of the bill james stats books. But the 1990s strike and steroids just killed it for me. I never would have thought that i could lose my intetest but its just not the same. I catch a game from time to time and still play softball but nothing like the old days. I could not even tell you who won the cy young award last year. Its really sad. Anyone else have this happen to them?
I grew up obsessed with baseball, but the strike in the 90’s killed it for me. Nowadays, for whatever reason, the game is just too slow.
 
From the hank aaron thread its obvious there are a lot of big time baseball fans on the board. I was a huge fan in the 1970s and 1980s and i really loved reading all of the bill james stats books. But the 1990s strike and steroids just killed it for me. I never would have thought that i could lose my intetest but its just not the same. I catch a game from time to time and still play softball but nothing like the old days. I could not even tell you who won the cy young award last year. Its really sad. Anyone else have this happen to them?
I am just like you. In the 70's I would skip going to the pool on a Saturday because the Reds - Dodgers were the game of the week on NBC. I can still identify the player for most baseball cards from the 70's. My first love was baseball.

I think the strike took away a lot of love for the game. Also, I am not a big fan of how the game is played today. Too many strike outs, guys can't bunt, not as much stealing. I understand statistics and strategy behind it today. I grew up an Oriole fan, Earl Weaver might have been the first modern manager, big believer in the on base percentage, did not steal many bases, did not like to sacrifice because you gave away outs and a huge believer in the 3 run home run.

Since the Orioles have stunk since 1983 with the exception of a few seasons, that will turn you off the game too. Oriole and Pirate fans can relate, two once proud franchises from the same time period are now jokes.
 
From the hank aaron thread its obvious there are a lot of big time baseball fans on the board. I was a huge fan in the 1970s and 1980s and i really loved reading all of the bill james stats books. But the 1990s strike and steroids just killed it for me. I never would have thought that i could lose my intetest but its just not the same. I catch a game from time to time and still play softball but nothing like the old days. I could not even tell you who won the cy young award last year. Its really sad. Anyone else have this happen to them?

The strikes hurt my interest for a while, but I think having a team come to DC helped rekindle my interest. I can't say I like the type of baseball currently played at the MLB level for reasons mentioned by others in the thread - the emphasis on the long ball and the accompanying increase in fly outs and strikeouts makes for a dull game. My son plays travel ball, and there's more action in two innings of a 14U or 15U game than most MLB games. I enjoyed watching Korean League games for the same reason - putting the ball in play and creating runs is still part of the game.
 
I grew up a big Yankee fan and a big baseball fan. Didn't matter who was playing I would watch the game. Now I'm just a big Yankee fan. Watch lots of Yankee games but rarely watch if they aren't playing.

Of course when I was young there were 8 teams in the American league and it was easy to know every player on every team. I think that may have something to do with it. I also hate interleague play.
 
I sound like an old man, but you really make a good point about the modern game. I'll turn on a yankee game and aaron judge comes up. First he takes a fastball right down the middle for strike one. Then he works the count full, chasing pitches that are much harder to hit than that first fastball. Then he fouls off 4 or 5 more pitches. Then, still swinging for the fences, he strikes out, or he might walk. I get it, he's running up the pitch count and statisticians have shown that's the best way to score, but it makes for a slow game.
Fellow Yankees fan here. Brett Gardner wouldn’t swing at a first pitch strike if his life depended on it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrucePa
Yes they are trying to run up the pitch count but lots of times they let the best pitch that they will see just go by. Then they end up striking out on some nasty breaking ball out of the strike zone. They both draw a lot of walks so i guess overall its effective, but it just slows the game down.
 
Yes they are trying to run up the pitch count but lots of times they let the best pitch that they will see just go by. Then they end up striking out on some nasty breaking ball out of the strike zone. They both draw a lot of walks so i guess overall its effective, but it just slows the game down.
Yeah, the point is that in roughly 42% of all possible scenarios a strikeout is just another out. When no one’s on base, or when there are two outs, what’s the difference between a strikeout and any other out? Nothing.

Let me do a little calculating. There are eight ways the bases can be occupied, so there are 24 different bases occupied and out scenarios. There are thus ten scenarios where a strikeout or any other out would have exactly the same impact (all eight with two outs and bases empty with either one or no outs).

Too much time on my hands. Good night.
 
Last edited:
In 2019, I wrote an email to the pirates filled with bitterness and sarcasm in which I renounced my fandom. I figured at least an intern would enjoy it. I was all set to get the mlb package and switch allegiance to the Dodgers. Then the Astros scandal and the lack of punishment was the last straw for me. Nothing short of voiding their championship would've saved it for me. Contrast that with the Pete Rose issue, and I won't be back.
Yeah, we get it, Pete's a lowlife. Just let him in. Let him sell autographs in Cooperstown for a weekend, then wash your hands of him if you like, but he belongs in the HOF. As a Pirate fan, I hated Pete in the 70s, but he still influenced the way I played the game.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, the point is that in roughly 42% of all possible scenarios a strikeout is just another out. When no one’s on base, or when there are two outs, what’s the difference between a strikeout and any other out? Nothing.

Let me do a little calculating. There are eight ways the bases can be occupied, so there are 24 different bases occupied and out scenarios. There are thus ten scenarios where a strikeout or any other out would have exactly the same impact (all eight with two outs and bases empty with either one or no outs).

Too much time on my hands. Good night.

I like retired Jim. This stuff is great.
 
Yes they are trying to run up the pitch count but lots of times they let the best pitch that they will see just go by. Then they end up striking out on some nasty breaking ball out of the strike zone. They both draw a lot of walks so i guess overall its effective, but it just slows the game down.
I have a couple former players of mine who are pitching in the big leagues and minors so they've given me some insight to some of the analytics that are used. One of the things that's not really mentioned much by the Nerds spewing the numbers is that up until recently the defense in the majors was so very good that the probability of grounding into a double play for two outs in one swing was so high that it created the idea of a strikeout being better than a ground ball.

Besides having a second batter hit with a runner on base it made some pitchers who now had to pitch out of the stretch again more likely throw specific pitches.
 
Last edited:
From the hank aaron thread its obvious there are a lot of big time baseball fans on the board. I was a huge fan in the 1970s and 1980s and i really loved reading all of the bill james stats books. But the 1990s strike and steroids just killed it for me. I never would have thought that i could lose my intetest but its just not the same. I catch a game from time to time and still play softball but nothing like the old days. I could not even tell you who won the cy young award last year. Its really sad. Anyone else have this happen to them?
My family had Pirate season tickets from the late 50's into the early 80's. In some of those seasons I attended over 60 games, including All Star, Playoff, and World Series games. I loved baseball. Now, I couldn't care less. I haven't attended a game in 7 or 8 years and rarely watch on TV. My reasons? The games, and season, are too long. The players make too much. And, as a former Pirate fan, the team is not worth watching.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wbcincy
I love baseball. I’ve always loved baseball. It’s just become so completely imbalanced anymore that it’s difficult to enjoy unless you’re a fan of one of the big spenders or you lighter spending team happens to catch lightning in a bottle one year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lb lion and wbcincy
I realize analytics have a place but they have driven out the kinds of things that make baseball interesting. I don’t really watch much anymore, just a few innings when the Fightin’s are on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LionJim
From the hank aaron thread its obvious there are a lot of big time baseball fans on the board. I was a huge fan in the 1970s and 1980s and i really loved reading all of the bill james stats books. But the 1990s strike and steroids just killed it for me. I never would have thought that i could lose my intetest but its just not the same. I catch a game from time to time and still play softball but nothing like the old days. I could not even tell you who won the cy young award last year. Its really sad. Anyone else have this happen to them?
Yes...almost exactly as you outlined..,I would just add lack of salary cap inequities.
 
Baseball is the DNA of America. It was our first professional sport, as far back as the Civil War. If you want to understand America and Americans, you have to understand baseball.

Baseball is buried in our history of immigration, our wars, our economy, our history, our life. Presidents throw out the first ball on opening day, and they don’t throw out a football or a basketball when those seasons begin.

Baseball is embedded in our very beings.
Sadly it's not what it once was, when I was a kid in the 70's, neighbor would pull out his tv on to his porch, entire neighborhood would make food and come over, it was a huge event. As much as I love the ability to watch basically any game anytime we want, that has watered down the big sporting events, just not as big or dramatic as when you only had 3 channels to watch.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wbcincy
I have a couple former players of mine who are pitching in the big leagues and minors so they've given me some insight to some of the analytics that are used. One of the things that's not really mentioned much by the Nerds spewing the numbers is that up until recently the defense in the majors was so very good that the probability of grounding into a double play for two outs in one swing was so high that it created the idea of a strikeout being better than a ground ball.

Besides having a second batter hit with a runner on base it made some pictures who now had to pitch out of the stretch again more likely throw specific pitches.
Hard to argue with the statistics, however, I do know with the game on the line, I would rather the batter put the ball in play than strike out. The simple reason is that their is always the possibly of an error, which is definitely higher than the catcher dropping the third strike and not getting the out at first base.
 
In 2019, I wrote an email to the pirates filled with bitterness and sarcasm in which I renounced my fandom. I figured at least an intern would enjoy it. I was all set to get the mlb package and switch allegiance to the Dodgers. Then the Astros scandal and the lack of punishment was the last straw for me. Nothing short of voiding their championship would've saved it for me. Contrast that with the Pete Rose issue, and I won't be back.
Yeah, we get it, Pete's a lowlife. Just let him in. Let him sell autographs in Cooperstown for a weekend, then wash your hands of him if you like, but he belongs in the HOF. As a Pirate fan, I hated Pete in the 70s, but he still influenced the way I played the game.
There are two athletes that everyone can use as a model for how to perform your job and prepare for your job (not just sports). They are Pete Rose and Ray Lewis. Both came to play, both were prepared physically and mentally, both knew how to win and lead their teams. Other than that, very few redeeming qualities about them.
 
From the hank aaron thread its obvious there are a lot of big time baseball fans on the board. I was a huge fan in the 1970s and 1980s and i really loved reading all of the bill james stats books. But the 1990s strike and steroids just killed it for me. I never would have thought that i could lose my intetest but its just not the same. I catch a game from time to time and still play softball but nothing like the old days. I could not even tell you who won the cy young award last year. Its really sad. Anyone else have this happen to them?

I was a fanatic fan in the late 50s and 60s. Now I still follow the game but the passion is long gone. I do stay connected by playing fantasy baseball. Nothing like having GLOV in your league to amp up the competitive spirit. And there are a few other BWI posters in the league.
 
I think sports in general have become less enjoyable for the average fan. Diehards will still stick around for their fan loyalty and fantasy sports reasons. I still enjoy most of the professional sports, including baseball. It is harder for younger generations to get and stay connected to baseball because of shorter attention spans. I actually like some of the newer analytics. However, I think it is overkill at times. The shift particularly bugs me, but I don't support taking it away. I support hitters developing in ways to beat the shift. Freddie Freeman is really enjoyable to watch in that regard. But lack of fundamentals like moving runners and bunting, plus the lack of stolen bases has taken away parts that I enjoy the most.
 
The union - marvin miller - ruined the game. The DH and the ever expanding rosters gave more players multi-million dollar contracts, but made the game less satisfying at the same time. There is absolutely no reason these pitchers pitch the innings they do today, and the rosters are as big as they are. It's sort of a joke.
 
I think sports in general have become less enjoyable for the average fan. Diehards will still stick around for their fan loyalty and fantasy sports reasons. I still enjoy most of the professional sports, including baseball. It is harder for younger generations to get and stay connected to baseball because of shorter attention spans. I actually like some of the newer analytics. However, I think it is overkill at times. The shift particularly bugs me, but I don't support taking it away. I support hitters developing in ways to beat the shift. Freddie Freeman is really enjoyable to watch in that regard. But lack of fundamentals like moving runners and bunting, plus the lack of stolen bases has taken away parts that I enjoy the most.
You may be more correct than you think. IIRC, ratings are down across the board for sports since the return, which is shocking when you consider the lockdowns. I wish I had a link but that’s what some talking heads were putting out.
 
The thing that baseball has yet to figure out is that their playing field isn't an even one. Football, hockey, etc. have already figured out that they NEED those small market franchises to be competitive to hold the interest of fan bases.

Baseball needs a salary cap.
 
I too was a huge baseball fan back in the day but the current pace of the game has really turned me off. Games used to finish in a little over 2 hours and if you happened to be at a game with 2 starting pitchers who worked fast (Jim Katt was one I remember), a well under 2 hour game was possible. It is ridiculous in today’s game that the batters are allowed to step out of the box on every single pitch, adjust their gloves, spit, take practice swings, etc. Plus with the way pitchers are used(well, unused) today, each team typically makes 4 or 5 pitching changes per game. Anytime I watch a game these days, I just lose interest about the 2:30 hour mark.
 
There are two athletes that everyone can use as a model for how to perform your job and prepare for your job (not just sports). They are Pete Rose and Ray Lewis. Both came to play, both were prepared physically and mentally, both knew how to win and lead their teams. Other than that, very few redeeming qualities about them.
I would put Tom Brady ahead of both of them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LionJim
I think sports in general have become less enjoyable for the average fan. Diehards will still stick around for their fan loyalty and fantasy sports reasons. I still enjoy most of the professional sports, including baseball. It is harder for younger generations to get and stay connected to baseball because of shorter attention spans. I actually like some of the newer analytics. However, I think it is overkill at times. The shift particularly bugs me, but I don't support taking it away. I support hitters developing in ways to beat the shift. Freddie Freeman is really enjoyable to watch in that regard. But lack of fundamentals like moving runners and bunting, plus the lack of stolen bases has taken away parts that I enjoy the most.
It would be interesting to see what viewership for baseball and football would be right now if fantasy had never come around. Might be scary.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Parkland Fan
I too was a huge baseball fan back in the day but the current pace of the game has really turned me off. Games used to finish in a little over 2 hours and if you happened to be at a game with 2 starting pitchers who worked fast (Jim Katt was one I remember), a well under 2 hour game was possible. It is ridiculous in today’s game that the batters are allowed to step out of the box on every single pitch, adjust their gloves, spit, take practice swings, etc. Plus with the way pitchers are used(well, unused) today, each team typically makes 4 or 5 pitching changes per game. Anytime I watch a game these days, I just lose interest about the 2:30 hour mark.
Yes games on average were 2 1/2 hrs. The game today is a bit longer but the broadcast is waaaayy longer. Used to be 1 minute between half innings. Not any more.
 
Yes games on average were 2 1/2 hrs. The game today is a bit longer but the broadcast is waaaayy longer. Used to be 1 minute between half innings. Not any more.
I used to love going to Cleveland to watch double headers. Nowadays a double header would take an entire day and evening.
 
Times have changed. I am and always will be a Phillies fan....I idolized Richie Ashburn, Dick Allen, Johnny Callison, Tony Taylor, Bobbie Wine, Ruben Amado, Robin Roberts, Chris Short.....then Larry Bowa, Mike Schmidt, Steve Carlton, Greg Luzinski, Bob Boone, Garry Maddox, Gary Mathews, Darren Daulton, Juan Samuel....free agents like Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, Tony Perez...and of course John Kruk, Chase Utley, Jimmy Rollins, Ryan Howard, Lenny Dykstra, Shane Victorino, Pat Burrell. Living in Scranton having Phillies Triple A team was fabulous....became friends with many and even got to play catch....but like everything else it didn't last. Sadly.....today I do not know a single Phillies player....living in Augusta I do not get the info and stories from Philadelphia papers. There is no continuity in rosters...less team rivalries...and of course the biggest change is my age and other interests have taken precedence.
 
Yeah, was far and away my favorite sport as a kid - played Little League, collected the cards (back when there was just Topps, Fleer, and Donross - would head to Rogers, OH every weekend to see if I could luck out and find a Dale Murphy card I didn't have), and was a massive Braves/Dale Murphy fan (also liked the Buccos since they were my hometown team and are the only team I like/follow to this day). When Murphy got older, I went all in on Will Clark and the Giants as my 'other' favorite team. Then, the strike hit and Clark was one of the faces of the movement and back then I didn't understand how much of the strike owners were responsible for. Moved overseas and still played, but interest faded as it was harder to follow from Japan and there were new baseball card companies (Upper Deck), a new star for the sport (Ken Griffey Jr.), and the Pirates continued to tank. I still like going to a game every now and then, especially when home in Pittsburgh, but with no salary cap it's the least competitive of the major professional sports and owners have zero incentive to spend to make teams better.
 
  • Like
Reactions: fairgambit
I sound like an old man, but you really make a good point about the modern game. I'll turn on a yankee game and aaron judge comes up. First he takes a fastball right down the middle for strike one. Then he works the count full, chasing pitches that are much harder to hit than that first fastball. Then he fouls off 4 or 5 more pitches. Then, still swinging for the fences, he strikes out, or he might walk. I get it, he's running up the pitch count and statisticians have shown that's the best way to score, but it makes for a slow game.

As an old timer I agree. On the other hand, I recently saw a feature on Mantle which surprised me to hear him say his managers were not happy with him not doing fundamental things like advancing runners since he was “always” trying to hit a homer.
 
The union - marvin miller - ruined the game. The DH and the ever expanding rosters gave more players multi-million dollar contracts, but made the game less satisfying at the same time. There is absolutely no reason these pitchers pitch the innings they do today, and the rosters are as big as they are. It's sort of a joke.

Miller ruined the game for me but not because he advocated for better salaries but because he is the person most if not solely responsible for steroids Never a Selig fan, but the claim that he and the owners turned a blind eye to steroids is nonsense. Selig repeatedly pushed for random steroid testing during labor negotiations but was rebuffed by Miller ever time. On one occasion Miller said steroid testing was a deal breaker Even after the Congressional hearings forced MLB into having steroid testing Miller bitched about how that was a violation of players’ rights despite the fact that all other unions had long since consented to drug and alcohol testing.
 
Miller ruined the game for me but not because he advocated for better salaries but because he is the person most if not solely responsible for steroids Never a Selig fan, but the claim that he and the owners turned a blind eye to steroids is nonsense. Selig repeatedly pushed for random steroid testing during labor negotiations but was rebuffed by Miller ever time. On one occasion Miller said steroid testing was a deal breaker Even after the Congressional hearings forced MLB into having steroid testing Miller bitched about how that was a violation of players’ rights despite the fact that all other unions had long since consented to drug and alcohol testing.
The steroid seasons were the only time baseball has been fun in years....McGuire vs Sosa, Bonds going after the record...since then it’s been boring as hell....bring back steroids!
 
Steroids never left. They are just a lot better at not getting caught now. Even better than Bonds was. Mostly, the guys who get caught are minor leaguers who can't afford the good stuff.

I wish that they would raise the fences to bring back the triple. The most boring play in baseball, the ground rule double, happens multiple times a game. The pitch clock would be a huge plus. Games take 3+ hours due to 30 seconds in between pitches. Pitching changes also extend it, but that is necessary. Stepping out of the box after every pitch to adjust your gloves when you didn't even swing is asinine.
 
There are two athletes that everyone can use as a model for how to perform your job and prepare for your job (not just sports). They are Pete Rose and Ray Lewis. Both came to play, both were prepared physically and mentally, both knew how to win and lead their teams. Other than that, very few redeeming qualities about them.
Pete was a pioneer in racial relations in MLB...he treated everyone the same...nearly all of his teammates loved him...especially the minorities...so there is that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LionJim
ADVERTISEMENT