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Barry Fenchak's Editorial to CDT

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heb65

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Aug 10, 2001
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On Aug 31th Step.eng69 posted Barry Fenchak's editorial to the CDT about PSU keeping our 2020 'seat license fees' of approx $20 Million.
I know a person who filed a complaint to the Penna. Attorney General about this last week. The AG office wrote back and they said they would investigate his complaint and ask Penn State for a response.
Did anyone else write to the PA AG?
Did anyone ask for 'some' of their 2020 seat ticket money be refunded (split option) or have not heard a reply from PSU? Some do not want all their seats for next year.

I wonder how many ticket holders even answered PSU yet, of which option they wanted, for the tickets, parking passes, and other related football tickets they purchased for the 2020 season.
Also Barry stated that "Every other Big Ten athletic department has, appropriately and legally, offered their fans a refund or a credit for their 2020 seat license fees. Everyone except Sandy Barbour — the nation’s most highly paid public university athletic director."
He said these fees are essentially funds paid "in exchange for goods and services". He said the IRS clearly defined that, as of 2018, that these fees were " Seat License fees" and not donations. Would this be called "unjust enrichment"?
 
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I understand the argument but if not getting a refund is a financial hardship, why make the donation in the first place?? If it's not a financial hardship, why not be a real philanthropist and let the donation stand?? I don't have the fine print in front of me but I'm sure somewhere it states NLC dues are non-refundable. Besides, what if an NLC member uses that status to buy tickets for other sporting events?? Does Fenchak feel they should be entitled to a full refund or should it be based on how much of their benefit they used??

I'm far from being a Barbour fan and I realize most people donate simply for access to football tickets. But why donate of you can't afford it?? And if you can afford it, consider it a sunk cost and take satisfaction in helping ICA through a difficult time.
 
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When you pay your seat license fees, you do so acknowledging they aren't refundable.

Good luck with that.
 
Plus it is noted as a donation to have the seat. While yes it is pretty much a seat license fee, I don’t believe it is legally described that way. I can see both sides. Some folks really need that money back and ICA needs it because they still have to support 800+ student athletes.
 
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The problem here is the "seat license fee" was ruled not to be a donation. It could not be used in filing your income taxes. So it was not a donation. However when the season was put on hold I was told that now it would be considered a donation and could be used as such when filing my income tax. This was a sneaky way to get around the problem.

Now when presented with the options on what to do about my 2020 season tickets, I elected to roll over my money to 2021 with the incentive of "no price increase". Not sure about the "seat license fee". Will I be asked to come up with a "seat license fee" for 2021?
 
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I chose #2......
I don't want the NLC screwing with my H.C. seat location behind the players bench nor my parking location. Currently have parking, 1st row, next to the stadium with a fairly short walking distance to my seat section. While working part time (three days a week) I am able to still afford the minimum contribution to maintain my parking location. All of the grandkids love the location, The two oldest grandkids are going to take over the contribution in a few years.
As long as my donation is contributing to the Levi Lamb Fund, I'm fine. I'm not fine with our school president, Sandy or the BOT.

I have the last of two grand girls currently at the campus, the one in my signature picture, Sophia, is out of state. She had been living with our PA family for 1-1/2 years as a PA resident, prior to enrolling at PSU. The bastards really screwed over the kid.

Long story on appeals to the university for state resident status.

2. Rollover to 2021 Football Season Tickets

•​
Season ticket holders can opt to roll over their 2020 football season ticket (ticket price only) and parking payment to their 2021 football season tickets and parking.​
•​
The 2020 football seat contributions will be converted to a tax-deductible donation to the Levi Lamb Fund.​
 
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MtNittany said:
Oh it's a screw-job no doubt. Just one of those ones your supposed to take for the team.

The school sits on hundreds of millions, and yet couldn't properly manage a lemonaide stand. Pay it back. Assholes.
Click to expand...
Dear Mr/Mrs/Miss Mt, Nittany,

If you have an opinion on this matter please clearly state it. Presently you’re ambiguity leaves one confused as to your position.

Thank you and keep the cards and letters coming.
Respectfully
Sandy Barbour
 
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NittPicker said:
I understand the argument but if not getting a refund is a financial hardship, why make the donation in the first place?? If it's not a financial hardship, why not be a real philanthropist and let the donation stand?? I don't have the fine print in front of me but I'm sure somewhere it states NLC dues are non-refundable. Besides, what if an NLC member uses that status to buy tickets for other sporting events?? Does Fenchak feel they should be entitled to a full refund or should it be based on how much of their benefit they used??

I'm far from being a Barbour fan and I realize most people donate simply for access to football tickets. But why donate of you can't afford it?? And if you can afford it, consider it a sunk cost and take satisfaction in helping ICA through a difficult time.
Click to expand...
True for normal times....which these ain’t. Lots of people that felt extremely secure in their jobs/income have been hit hard by the pandemic and the government’s response to it. Many who thought they could safely donate now found themselves in dire straits.

Of course, should refunds be permitted or forced, many will apply for such because they don’t like Sandy, the admin, or the BoT. Many will do so because of the way it was handled by the B1G. Some will so just because. Buts it’s all their choice.

I see a class action lawsuit in my crystal ball.
 
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interrobang said:
When you pay your seat license fees, you do so acknowledging they aren't refundable.

Good luck with that.
Click to expand...
Well if the IRS et al has ruled that they’re in exchange for a service, and the service is not provided, that is not going to be binding. That only holds water if you want to back out.
 
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BobPSU92 said:
I asked a question in response to interrobang. Go f*ck yourself.
Click to expand...

Nice. Also, a lie since interrobang did not ask a question. You just provided your worthless opinion. I still don't see a link confirming what you posted.
 
So these purchases were made before people were told they are donations and now, after the purchase, they are being told that the purchases are donations. That seems ripe for class action. The cabal will have to pay off the judge.
 
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Metal Mike said:
The problem here is the "seat license fee" was ruled not to be a donation. It could not be used in filing your income taxes. So it was not a donation. However when the season was put on hold I was told that now it would be considered a donation and could be used as such when filing my income tax. This was a sneaky way to get around the problem.

Now when presented with the options on what to do about my 2020 season tickets, I elected to roll over my money to 2021 with the incentive of "no price increase". Not sure about the "seat license fee". Will I be asked to come up with a "seat license fee" for 2021?
Click to expand...

Penn State changed your 2020 non tax deductable donation to a tax decuctable donation.

Here is info I copied from a website.:

What's Not Deductible
Some contributions aren't tax-deductible, including:
  • Gifts made to political parties, political campaigns, or political action committees
  • Gifts donated to individual people
  • Contributions to labor unions, chambers of commerce, or business associations
  • Contributions to for-profit schools and hospitals
  • Contributions to foreign governments
The contribution to for-profit school and hospitals is why I think a couple of years ago it was ruled you could no longer use your NLC donation as a tax deduction but it is still considered a donation by Penn State. PSL's are also normally an one-time fee for the right to buy your seats, which you can sell (transfer) to someone else. The only true seat licenses in Beaver Stadium are the club suites and luxury boxes. It would be interesting to see what a court would actually rule your yearly NLC donation is considered.

Ticket prices are going up and NLC donations are going up for the individuals that requested a refund. If you rolled over or donated your season ticket payment, ticket prices and donations levels were locked to 2020. I believe parking will go up for everybody in 2021.
 
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heb65 said:
On Aug 31th Step.eng69 posted Barry Fenchak's editorial to the CDT about PSU keeping our 2020 'seat license fees' of approx $200 Million.
I know a person who filed a complaint to the Penna. Attorney General about this last week. The AG office wrote back and they said they would investigate his complaint and ask Penn State for a response.
Did anyone else write to the PA AG?
Did anyone ask for 'some' of their 2020 seat ticket money be refunded (split option) or have not heard a reply from PSU? Some do not want all their seats for next year.

I wonder how many ticket holders even answered PSU yet, of which option they wanted, for the tickets, parking passes, and other related football tickets they purchased for the 2020 season.
Also Barry stated that "Every other Big Ten athletic department has, appropriately and legally, offered their fans a refund or a credit for their 2020 seat license fees. Everyone except Sandy Barbour — the nation’s most highly paid public university athletic director."
He said these fees are essentially funds paid "in exchange for goods and services". He said the IRS clearly defined that, as of 2018, that these fees were " Seat License fees" and not donations. Would this be called "unjust enrichment"?
Click to expand...

I don’t want to get too far into the weeds but is that 200 Mil. In seat license fee in 2020 accurate? Because that sounds like waayyy too much for one year?🤷‍♂️
 
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bison13 said:
Um dude it was pretty easy to follow. He did ask interro about if psu was the only one with psl
Click to expand...

Thanks. Above all, everyone knows I add no value here. I wouldn't even know where to start. There’s no cause to attack me for it.
 
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RGWhirly said:
No way it is $200M for one season.
Click to expand...
I think someone slipped a digit. $20 Million is almost believable if one assumes that 70,000 of the 107,000 seating capacity goes to season ticket holders and they pay an average donation of $300/seat.

FB_seating_contributionsREV1_2020vs2.jpg
 
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PSUAlum said:
Penn State changed your 2020 non tax deductable donation to a tax decuctable donation.
Click to expand...

I am not a PSU season ticket holder, so I have not seen any of the documentation related to the solicitation of seat license fees or sale of season tickets, but if seat license "donations" are required as a condition of buying season tickets, then characterizing them as charitable contributions (or at least as fully charitable contributions), is a real stretch.

The would be season ticket holder is getting something of value - the right to purchase one or more season tickets - in exchange for his or her contribution. Reasonable people could differ on the value that should be assigned to that right, but it clearly has value. Otherwise, people would not be making such seat license "donations." The very fact that the words "seat license" are attached to the word "donation" suggests that.

In fact, the Internal Revenue Code contains an entire section (IRC Section 6115) devoted to the subject of "quid pro quo contributions" (i.e., contributions that are nominally charitable, but are accompanied by the provision of something of value to the donor). Amounts paid for attending charity galas where dinner and drinks are provided, or amount paid for goods or services provided by charities (such as in the case of silent auctions at charity events), are good examples of this. The donor is supposed to be given a written "gift acknowledgement" which indicates the value of the goods or services the donor received, and notice that his or her contribution is to that extent non-deductible.)

The University certainly had a better case for treating payment of this year's seat license fee as being a fully deductible charitable contribution, because it looked like no season tickets were going to be sold, so the person making the payment was presumably receiving nothing of value in return. But donations are supposed to be voluntary, so how could the University declare them deductible without affording "donors" the option of getting their "seat license fee/donation" refunded? And the fact that games are now gonna be played, and season tickets presumably issued, only muddies that up even further.

I would be surprised if the University has not issued some form of guidance on this issue.
 
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It’s a donation and has always been a donation - hasn’t it? What changed a few years ago was the federal government prevented any of the donation from being tax deductible, but that doesn’t change its status as a donation to the general PSU athletic fund.

I guess I just see it differently because I just always have viewed it as helping to support the many athletes at PSU and in return I have the ability to get football tickets. I know that’s an idealistic way of thinking but I’m also ones of those people who loves seeing PSU having a huge number and variety of sports even if they “lose money”. 🤷‍♂️

I get that for some diners, their financial circumstances have dramatically changed and perhaps PSU could refund on a case by case basis. But the general idea of keeping the donations made doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.

I do wonder if that if the claim that no other Big Ten school is doing that is true as that seems unlikely to me
 
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NoVa Lion said:
Is that true and if so link please? Otherwise you just made that up. Worthless contribution to the board, SOP for you.
Click to expand...
Nova Lion, in Bob's posts #2 & #5, he is referencing a previous post that "stated PSU is the only school in the B1G not returning the donations". I read that post earlier today, and see that portion of the post must have been edited out.
 
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heb65 said:
On Aug 31th Step.eng69 posted Barry Fenchak's editorial to the CDT about PSU keeping our 2020 'seat license fees' of approx $200 Million.
I know a person who filed a complaint to the Penna. Attorney General about this last week. The AG office wrote back and they said they would investigate his complaint and ask Penn State for a response.
Did anyone else write to the PA AG?
Did anyone ask for 'some' of their 2020 seat ticket money be refunded (split option) or have not heard a reply from PSU? Some do not want all their seats for next year.

I wonder how many ticket holders even answered PSU yet, of which option they wanted, for the tickets, parking passes, and other related football tickets they purchased for the 2020 season.
Also Barry stated that "Every other Big Ten athletic department has, appropriately and legally, offered their fans a refund or a credit for their 2020 seat license fees. Everyone except Sandy Barbour — the nation’s most highly paid public university athletic director."
He said these fees are essentially funds paid "in exchange for goods and services". He said the IRS clearly defined that, as of 2018, that these fees were " Seat License fees" and not donations. Would this be called "unjust enrichment"?
Click to expand...

This is what happens when you hire a lady from a non-sports school from California.

The decisions of the leadership at PSU since 2011 are running PSU into the ground.
 
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BW Lion said:
I think someone slipped a digit. $20 Million is almost believable if one assumes that 70,000 of the 107,000 seating capacity goes to season ticket holders and they pay an average donation of $300/seat.

FB_seating_contributionsREV1_2020vs2.jpg
Click to expand...
Link: https://gopsusports.com/sports/2018/8/8/tickets-reserved-parking-html.aspx

Very Good guess BW. To park in Lot 41, a $2500 minimum donation is required. There are approximately 1740 parking stalls in the lot..yields $4,350,000. Comparing the area of Lot 41 to the other reserved lots, I would believe that the aggregate reserved lots bring in $14 million+/-. If you include the parking fee of $100, an additional $1/2 million could be added to reserved lots alone.

For preferred parking lots, I believe the minimum donation is $1000. Not sure, someone on the board that parks preferred can chime in with the required donation. I would estimate that aggregate preferred parking area is 2.5 times the area of Lot 41...yields $4.4 million, plus another $0.4 million in parking fees.

For general parking, say 7 times the area of Lot 41, yields...$1.2 million.

Approximate donations + parking fees = 20.5 +/- million.
 
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step.eng69 said:
Link: https://gopsusports.com/sports/2018/8/8/tickets-reserved-parking-html.aspx

Very Good guess BW. To park in Lot 41, a $2500 minimum donation is required. There are approximately 1740 parking stalls in the lot..yields $4,350,000. Comparing the area of Lot 41 to the other reserved lots, I would believe that the aggregate reserved lots bring in $14 million+/-. If you include the parking fee of $100, an additional $1/2 million could be added to reservered alone.

For preferred parking lots, I believe the minimum donation is $1000. Not sure, someone on the board that parks preferred can chime in with the required donation. I would estimate that aggregate preferred parking area is 2.5 times the area of Lot 41...yields $4.4 million, plus another $0.4 million in parking fees.

For general parking, say 7 times the area of Lot 41, yields...$1.2 million.

Approximate donations + parking fees = 20.5 +/- million.
Click to expand...
Last FY Penn State had $31,499,197 in donations. The percentage of that tied to seat or parking donation was not stated.

2018-19 NCAA Annual Financial Report (PDF) - Penn State Athletics

2018-19 NCAA Annual Financial Report
gopsusports.com gopsusports.com
 
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PSU_Nut said:
Last FY Penn State had $31,499,197 in donations. The percentage of that tied to seat or parking donation was not stated.

2018-19 NCAA Annual Financial Report (PDF) - Penn State Athletics

2018-19 NCAA Annual Financial Report
gopsusports.com gopsusports.com
Click to expand...

When broken out by team, $10.8mm was specifically related to football. Roughly $8.8mm was unallocated, so if somehow all of that is related to football, which isn't likely, it maxes out at less than $20mm.

Whether these "donations," "fees," or whatever else one wants to call them are refundable begs the question. Given the circumstances PSU could have been magnanimous and offered the option of a refund. Generosity in the Athletic Department only extends to Serious Sandy and her minions. Fifteen percent salary reduction my ass!
 
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Art said:
When broken out by team, $10.8mm was specifically related to football. Roughly $8.8mm was unallocated, so if somehow all of that is related to football, which isn't likely, it maxes out at less than $20mm.

Whether these "donations," "fees," or whatever else one wants to call them are refundable begs the question. Given the circumstances PSU could have been magnanimous and offered the option of a refund. Generosity in the Athletic Department only extends to Serious Sandy and her minions. Fifteen percent salary reduction my ass!
Click to expand...

Penn State magnanimous to the little people (and those who look like them)? 🤣
 
BobPSU92 said:
Penn State magnanimous to the little people (and those who look like them)? 🤣
Click to expand...

Just remember that Serious Sandy said that at some point going forward the Athletic Department will re-evaluate the way it spends money. Eric the Plump will finish his review of the Freeh Report first.
 
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Art said:
Just remember that Serious Sandy said that at some point going forward the Athletic Department will re-evaluate the way it spends money. Eric the Plump will finish his review of the Freeh Report first.
Click to expand...

Leading.

Of course, reevaluating how you spend money is not the same as not spending money. 😁
 
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PSUAlum said:
Penn State changed your 2020 non tax deductable donation to a tax decuctable donation.

Here is info I copied from a website.:

What's Not Deductible
Some contributions aren't tax-deductible, including:
  • Gifts made to political parties, political campaigns, or political action committees
  • Gifts donated to individual people
  • Contributions to labor unions, chambers of commerce, or business associations
  • Contributions to for-profit schools and hospitals
  • Contributions to foreign governments
The contribution to for-profit school and hospitals is why I think a couple of years ago it was ruled you could no longer use your NLC donation as a tax deduction but it is still considered a donation by Penn State. PSL's are also normally an one-time fee for the right to buy your seats, which you can sell (transfer) to someone else. The only true seat licenses in Beaver Stadium are the club suites and luxury boxes. It would be interesting to see what a court would actually rule your yearly NLC donation is considered.

Ticket prices are going up and NLC donations are going up for the individuals that requested a refund. If you rolled over or donated your season ticket payment, ticket prices and donations levels were locked to 2020. I believe parking will go up for everybody in 2021.
Click to expand...
Penn State is a non-profit. The reason the seat donations are not deductible is due to the IRS lawyers deciding that donations in exchange for a thing of value like a seat license are not "donations"
 
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