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At least 22 "overexertion" deaths in College Football since the year 2000:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-f...tioning-culture-is-dangerous-for-all-players/


There are - of course - real issues in play.
Very significant, broad-based issues - that should be, and can be, addressed by intelligent people working to actually improve the actual situation (as opposed to 3/4-of-a-morons rushing up moral-outrage, Twitter-Mountain).


Maryland staffers force feeding Snickers Bars is not one of them.

Good data but lacks a baseline. How does this compare to other sports (cross country, track, basketball, soccer)? Did any of these have extenuating circumstances (undetected heart condition etc.)? What is the military baseline for intense training (basic, seals, delta force, working in the trump administration)?
 
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Good data but lacks a baseline. How does this compare to other sports (cross country, track, basketball, soccer)? Did any of these have extenuating circumstances (undetected heart condition etc.)? What is the military baseline for intense training (basic, seals, delta force, working in the trump administration)?

I'd also like to see how many of the deaths occurred to extremely overweight athletes. I guess you need the really big boys to win these days, but its crazy that 280-290 pound offensive lineman are now considered tiny.
 
I'd also like to see how many of the deaths occurred to extremely overweight athletes. I guess you need the really big boys to win these days, but its crazy that 280-290 pound offensive lineman are now considered tiny.
Randy White was a "monster" DT at 270 back in the day
 
I'd also like to see how many of the deaths occurred to extremely overweight athletes. I guess you need the really big boys to win these days, but its crazy that 280-290 pound offensive lineman are now considered tiny.
over weight or over fat, there is a difference.
 
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Good data but lacks a baseline. How does this compare to other sports (cross country, track, basketball, soccer)? Did any of these have extenuating circumstances (undetected heart condition etc.)? What is the military baseline for intense training (basic, seals, delta force, working in the trump administration)?

I'd also like to see how many of the deaths occurred to extremely overweight athletes. I guess you need the really big boys to win these days, but its crazy that 280-290 pound offensive lineman are now considered tiny.

Good points. Any death is tragic but it's hard to detect an undiagnosed medical condition unless every player is given a thorough physical prior to their first practice. That could very well be the direction it's headed. If an unknown condition is identified the player would then go the medical exemption route.

Also, having 300+ pound linemen running a series of sprints is nuts. Reports of players collapsing from heat exhaustion always seem to be about a big lineman. I can't recall ever hearing about a 190 pound receiver keeling over unless a medical condition was involved. Any conditioning coach with a brain should know there isn't a one size fits all aerobic training regimen. And using sprints as a form of motivation/punishment is just dumb.
 
I get that lots of people die playing FB. When a person has heatstroke, you immediately take their temp and immediately cool them off. Every HS WATERBOY KNOWS THIS IN 2018.

MD FB did neither one, and never called an ambulance until 45 mins or 1 hour. It is STAGGERING NEGLIGENCE to do this. It IS fodder for moral outrage. They cooked his liver to the point of failure.

No excuse.
 
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22 since 2000. That of course is just over 1 per year. Combine that with there being over 12000 players on D-1A rosters each year, that's 22 deaths out of over 216k player years. That's what, 0.01%?
 
22 since 2000. That of course is just over 1 per year. Combine that with there being over 12000 players on D-1A rosters each year, that's 22 deaths out of over 216k player years. That's what, 0.01%?


Even overlooking your optimistically flawed math, it's hard to believe you're shrugging this off. Considering how and why these kids died, 0.0001% is still too high.
 
If my math is flawed, feel free to correct it. Actually my math is probably overly conservative. It's probably a much lower percentage than that.
 
Is there anyone else that is surprised by the time line that has been published on the Maryland tragedy?
If the practice started at 4:15 and commenced with stretching and warm ups for 15-20 minutes.....it would mean this young man suffered heat stroke in about 20-25 minutes of activity.
While I understand that they were doing 110 yard sprints( I believe they had 60 seconds of "rest" between timed intervals). I believe this was intended as a conditioning test (even in my playing days were had similar tests in college).
None of my questions excuses medical professionals who failed to properly cool down the young man. Just wondering because of the quick onset of heat illness, if the trainers misdiagnosed.
 
I get that lots of people die playing FB. When a person has heatstroke, you immediately take their temp and immediately cool them off. Every HS WATERBOY KNOWS THIS IN 2018.

MD FB did neither one, and never called an ambulance until 45 mins or 1 hour. It is STAGGERING NEGLIGENCE to do this. It IS fodder for moral outrage. They cooked his liver to the point of failure.

No excuse.

You're absolutely correct. I've been on first aid teams for races and heat is nothing to play with. He could have been saved.
 
Even overlooking your optimistically flawed math, it's hard to believe you're shrugging this off. Considering how and why these kids died, 0.0001% is still too high.

Exactly, this can be prevented. As bodyweight increases the risk increases, even with low bodyfat %s because your own mass acts as insulation. Even if you're conditioned well. Look at small dogs vs big dogs, say a terrier vs a St. Bernard.
 
I'm beginning to think that college football ranks way behind feigned outrage as the favorite sport around here.

An unfortunate accident is proof that there was an unfortunate accident.
 
I'm beginning to think that college football ranks way behind feigned outrage as the favorite sport around here.

An unfortunate accident is proof that there was an unfortunate accident.

Bullshit, as I said, I've worked at long distance races. we were well trained with what to look for with heat injuries as volunteers. Some were just lay people btw, others were paramedics, Docs, and nurses along with other medical type folk. Former army medics, podiatrists, chiropractors. They all had training with these injuries. We did not ignore these injuries.

The outrage at their incompetence is justifed, trained professionals have no excuse to let this happen.
 
I'm beginning to think that college football ranks way behind feigned outrage as the favorite sport around here.

An unfortunate accident is proof that there was an unfortunate accident.
I can't agree with that. Yeah, unfortunate the kid was pushed too hard. But proper protocols were not followed after he collapsed. And, lots of smoke that the S&C coach was out of control. That all falls in the HC.

IMHO, it moves from "accident" to negligence. An accident is having a blowout that causes the driver to swerve into the path of another car. negligence is running a stop sign because the driver is texting.
 
Bullshit, as I said, I've worked at long distance races. we were well trained with what to look for with heat injuries as volunteers. Some were just lay people btw, others were paramedics, Docs, and nurses along with other medical type folk. Former army medics, podiatrists, chiropractors. They all had training with these injuries. We did not ignore these injuries.

The outrage at their incompetence is justifed, trained professionals have no excuse to let this happen.
Were you there? No? Neither was I. If you don't think this could happen anywhere- including on our campus- you are living in a dream world. People make mistakes, people misjudge situations. Reveling in it as some here are is not proof we are better, it just shows that we aren't.

Our fan base has become an ugly joke.
 
Were you there? No? Neither was I. If you don't think this could happen anywhere- including on our campus- you are living in a dream world. People make mistakes, people misjudge situations. Reveling in it as some here are is not proof we are better, it just shows that we aren't.

Our fan base has become an ugly joke.
Were you there? No? Neither was I. If you don't think this could happen anywhere- including on our campus- you are living in a dream world. People make mistakes, people misjudge situations. Reveling in it as some here are is not proof we are better, it just shows that we aren't.

Our fan base has become an ugly joke.

That's a stupid response, I've been there, at Triathlons, and at road races. It's not hard to monitor this stuff. It's actually quite easy. You immediately pull them from activity, cool them down, call 9/11 if that is not working in a few minutes, pull them from practice, and monitor them for 24 hours ( you should actually have paramedics at these practices for God's sake).
 
Were you there? No? Neither was I. If you don't think this could happen anywhere- including on our campus- you are living in a dream world. People make mistakes, people misjudge situations. Reveling in it as some here are is not proof we are better, it just shows that we aren't.

Our fan base has become an ugly joke.
that is why there was an investigation. the conclusion is that the staff did not follow proper procedures. now, we can argue that the investigation was a media driven event, and that may be true. At PSU, we get that. But at PSU, we are somewhat stuck between hoping all other programs get the same treatment and being sympathetic to those who get the same treatment.

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that is why there was an investigation. the conclusion is that the staff did not follow proper procedures. now, we can argue that the investigation was a media driven event, and that may be true. At PSU, we get that. But at PSU, we are somewhat stuck between hoping all other programs get the same treatment and being sympathetic to those who get the same treatment.

For God's sake people make mistakes, they take short cuts, they ignore procedure. This stuff is not brain surgery and there is no excuse for this bahvior or these practices. If a local 10 k can handle this, a major D1 football program can.

w39lExI.gif
 
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that is why there was an investigation. the conclusion is that the staff did not follow proper procedures. now, we can argue that the investigation was a media driven event, and that may be true. At PSU, we get that. But at PSU, we are somewhat stuck between hoping all other programs get the same treatment and being sympathetic to those who get the same treatment.

I'll add this, I have a friend who is a paramedic, he picks up some extra money by working at horse stables that hold shows and do training. They keep paramedics at the location during their busy days. Why can't a D1 program afford to keep qualified paramedics on sight during practices These men can treat in seconds preventing these unnecessary deaths.

w39lExI.gif
 
that is why there was an investigation. the conclusion is that the staff did not follow proper procedures. now, we can argue that the investigation was a media driven event, and that may be true. At PSU, we get that. But at PSU, we are somewhat stuck between hoping all other programs get the same treatment and being sympathetic to those who get the same treatment.

w39lExI.gif
which side do you think Joe would be on?
 
which side do you think Joe would be on?
I don't often wonder about that. Joe was an awesome and great guy. But I don't know better than the president of UMD, I just watch to see if the investigation, process and conclusions hold water.

I am less concerned about the kid suffering from heat stroke than I am the process used once this took place. If there are best practices surround such events, and they weren't followed, that's a problem
 
I don't often wonder about that. Joe was an awesome and great guy. But I don't know better than the president of UMD, I just watch to see if the investigation, process and conclusions hold water.

I am less concerned about the kid suffering from heat stroke than I am the process used once this took place. If there are best practices surround such events, and they weren't followed, that's a problem
I'll trust MD's legal system to sort that out- they can't be any worse than PA's legal system, can they?
 
I'll trust MD's legal system to sort that out- they can't be any worse than PA's legal system, can they?
True...but there is criminal and there is civil. Is there a criminal charge? I haven't seen that. On the civil side, I am sure a settlement has been reached or is being negotiated. That settlement will contain an NDA with teeth. So we'll never know. But the UMD president already threw himself on his sword (not a racial reference, for those going there). He already took the blame.
 
It was incompetence of the coaches, training and medical staffs. We all know this, but I wonder if based on recent PSU kids being told of conditions forced them out of the game how many other schools are NOT doing their due diligence in physicals and medical evaluations for each player before enrollment. Glad PSU seems to be at the forefront of this level of care.
 
True...but there is criminal and there is civil. Is there a criminal charge? I haven't seen that. On the civil side, I am sure a settlement has been reached or is being negotiated. That settlement will contain an NDA with teeth. So we'll never know. But the UMD president already threw himself on his sword (not a racial reference, for those going there). He already took the blame.
on the civil side, no settlement until DJ is fired according to this report.....

Report: Jordan McNair’s parents won’t discuss settlement until Maryland fires D.J. Durkin

The screws are tightening even further on D.J. Durkin and Maryland.

Following the lead of their attorney, the parents of Jordan McNair took part in a pair of television interviews Thursday in which they called for Durkin to be fired as Maryland’s head football coach. It was the mother and father’s first public comments since their son, a 19-year-old Terrapins offensive lineman, collapsed during a football workout in late May and died two weeks later because of what the family called heatstroke.

Additional pressure is being applied behind the scenes as well as 247Sports.com, citing sources with knowledge of the situation, is now reporting that McNair’s parents will not discuss a settlement with the university until Durkin is fired. The website writes that the parents’ “demand appears to be fueled, at least partially, by a belief that Durkin and Maryland officials have been callous and weren’t forthright about the day the 6-foot-5, 325-pound lineman fell ill.”

Not that they needed it, but UM president Wallace Loh handed the parents the keys to drive the settlement in a press conference earlier this week by stating that the university “accepts legal and moral responsibility for the mistakes that our training staff made on that fateful workout day.” The president acknowledged that McNair’s death could’ve been prevented, but the football program’s training staff “basically misdiagnosed the situation.”

Durkin, two members of the training staff and head strength & conditioning coach Rick Court were placed on administrative leave earlier this month after a bombshell report alleged mishandling of McNair’s medical event as well as a toxic culture within the football program. Court’s resignation was announced earlier this week, while Durkin and the training staff members remain on leave.

Wednesday night, the University of Maryland announced that it has called a special meeting of its Board of Regents Friday morning at approximately 10:05 ET. Among the topics on the agenda to be discussed at the closed-door session are “[t]he appointment, employment, assignment, promotion, discipline, demotion, compensation, removal, resignation, or performance evaluation of appointees, employees, or officials over whom it has jurisdiction.”

It’s unclear whether a recommendation on Durkin’s future, and that of the president and athletic director Damon Evans as well, will come out of that meeting. The growing sentiment, however, is that Durkin will not return as the Terps’ head coach.

https://collegefootballtalk.nbcspor...s-settlement-until-maryland-fires-d-j-durkin/
 
on the civil side, no settlement until DJ is fired according to this report.....

Report: Jordan McNair’s parents won’t discuss settlement until Maryland fires D.J. Durkin

The screws are tightening even further on D.J. Durkin and Maryland.

Following the lead of their attorney, the parents of Jordan McNair took part in a pair of television interviews Thursday in which they called for Durkin to be fired as Maryland’s head football coach. It was the mother and father’s first public comments since their son, a 19-year-old Terrapins offensive lineman, collapsed during a football workout in late May and died two weeks later because of what the family called heatstroke.

Additional pressure is being applied behind the scenes as well as 247Sports.com, citing sources with knowledge of the situation, is now reporting that McNair’s parents will not discuss a settlement with the university until Durkin is fired. The website writes that the parents’ “demand appears to be fueled, at least partially, by a belief that Durkin and Maryland officials have been callous and weren’t forthright about the day the 6-foot-5, 325-pound lineman fell ill.”

Not that they needed it, but UM president Wallace Loh handed the parents the keys to drive the settlement in a press conference earlier this week by stating that the university “accepts legal and moral responsibility for the mistakes that our training staff made on that fateful workout day.” The president acknowledged that McNair’s death could’ve been prevented, but the football program’s training staff “basically misdiagnosed the situation.”

Durkin, two members of the training staff and head strength & conditioning coach Rick Court were placed on administrative leave earlier this month after a bombshell report alleged mishandling of McNair’s medical event as well as a toxic culture within the football program. Court’s resignation was announced earlier this week, while Durkin and the training staff members remain on leave.

Wednesday night, the University of Maryland announced that it has called a special meeting of its Board of Regents Friday morning at approximately 10:05 ET. Among the topics on the agenda to be discussed at the closed-door session are “[t]he appointment, employment, assignment, promotion, discipline, demotion, compensation, removal, resignation, or performance evaluation of appointees, employees, or officials over whom it has jurisdiction.”

It’s unclear whether a recommendation on Durkin’s future, and that of the president and athletic director Damon Evans as well, will come out of that meeting. The growing sentiment, however, is that Durkin will not return as the Terps’ head coach.

https://collegefootballtalk.nbcspor...s-settlement-until-maryland-fires-d-j-durkin/

A good negotiator doesn't give anything unless they get something. My guess is that Durkin is toast, but the negotiator will use this as a lever to lower other demands..."we can fire the HC but that will be a problem...if you really want that, you will need to drop your demands of xxx.." So it makes sense that everything will be put in a package with a bow. In the meantime, the family is smart to lower their voices because the value of an NDA is less if it has all already been disclosed.

Just speculating, of course...

In the meantime, Jay Paterno has chimed in....
 
Is there anyone else that is surprised by the time line that has been published on the Maryland tragedy?
If the practice started at 4:15 and commenced with stretching and warm ups for 15-20 minutes.....it would mean this young man suffered heat stroke in about 20-25 minutes of activity.
While I understand that they were doing 110 yard sprints( I believe they had 60 seconds of "rest" between timed intervals). I believe this was intended as a conditioning test (even in my playing days were had similar tests in college).
None of my questions excuses medical professionals who failed to properly cool down the young man. Just wondering because of the quick onset of heat illness, if the trainers misdiagnosed.
yes that is a curious timeline. Not to be callus, but has there been an official cause of death released? Could his body temperature risen for another reason?
I had a HS teammate die while snow sledding, his internal temp had risen to the same level. It turns out he had a bad reaction to something he had ingested earlier that day. So far the only thing I've seen is ESPN reports its heat stroke. I dont trust them, I would rather have a medical examiner say that.
 
Were you there? No? Neither was I. If you don't think this could happen anywhere- including on our campus- you are living in a dream world. People make mistakes, people misjudge situations. Reveling in it as some here are is not proof we are better, it just shows that we aren't.

Our fan base has become an ugly joke.
I disagree. If what we are being told is true, they treated him during this heatstroke event as though he were a pu$$y who did not care enough about his team to work a little. Absent some showing that he had some sort of hidden heart or other defect which made him susceptible to sudden death from exertion, their attitude and their nonresponse CAUSED HIM TO DIE.

If he died because one guy misjudged the situation, then yeah, people make mistakes. If they misjudged the situation because everyone suffering from heatstroke is treated as a pu$$y, then that is not only a mistake it is a very dangerous attitude. Attitudes do not get changed except by being pointed out. If a trainer thinks his job is in jeopardy if he pulls a kid out, that is a toxic, deadly nightmare.
 
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I disagree. If what we are being told is true, they treated him during this heatstroke event as though he were a pu$$y who did not care enough about his team to work a little. Absent some showing that he had some sort of hidden heart or other defect which made him susceptible to sudden death from exertion, their attitude and their nonresponse CAUSED HIM TO DIE.

If he died because one guy misjudged the situation, then yeah, people make mistakes. If they misjudged the situation because everyone suffering from heatstroke is treated as a pu$$y, then that is not only a mistake it is a very dangerous attitude. Attitudes do not get changed except by being pointed out. If a trainer thinks his job is in jeopardy if he pulls a kid out, that is a toxic, deadly nightmare.

totally agree. Jay's article says this. PSU put in place a system where the medical team makes the call. In the NFL, they have protocols where the medical staff takes away a player's helmet without consulting the coaching staff. The medical team must be able to make decisions without pressure from the coaches or university. (why else do they have to pay such high malpractice insurance premiums?)
 
totally agree. Jay's article says this. PSU put in place a system where the medical team makes the call. In the NFL, they have protocols where the medical staff takes away a player's helmet without consulting the coaching staff. The medical team must be able to make decisions without pressure from the coaches or university. (why else do they have to pay such high malpractice insurance premiums?)
agreed especially in a trauma situations
 
A good negotiator doesn't give anything unless they get something. My guess is that Durkin is toast, but the negotiator will use this as a lever to lower other demands..."we can fire the HC but that will be a problem...if you really want that, you will need to drop your demands of xxx.." So it makes sense that everything will be put in a package with a bow. In the meantime, the family is smart to lower their voices because the value of an NDA is less if it has all already been disclosed.

Just speculating, of course...

In the meantime, Jay Paterno has chimed in....

But they are saying there are no negotiations unless Durkin is gone. The actual negotiations themselves are subject to a precondition that they appear to be saying is itself NON-NEGOTIABLE.

"If you don't fire Durkin, we file suit. Give me PJ's available deposition dates during the next few months. Or we will subpoena him."
 
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totally agree. Jay's article says this. PSU put in place a system where the medical team makes the call. In the NFL, they have protocols where the medical staff takes away a player's helmet without consulting the coaching staff. The medical team must be able to make decisions without pressure from the coaches or university. (why else do they have to pay such high malpractice insurance premiums?)

The medical team must always make the call. I've volunteered at various events and watched how this stuff is handled. No one questions medical and if you do you will be tossed from these events and you will be banned ( one certain event). You do what they say when they say it, coaches and players have no say at all in the situations.
 
I'm beginning to think that college football ranks way behind feigned outrage as the favorite sport around here.

An unfortunate accident is proof that there was an unfortunate accident.

Who says it's FEIGNED. OUTRAGE. :eek: ?

:eek:


:D
 
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