All Things SENIOR WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS

[psumacw]

@midniteride
I would only add that David (and Zain!) has already qualified for Olympic Trials in State College, per this criteria:


In this document, put out by USA Wrestling.

could an olympic weight be just a 3 man bracket if our participants at that weight and both adjacent weights medal at 2019 worlds and the lower weight goes up and higher weight goes down?

like would 74kg be a 3 man bracket where james green and kyle dake face off in the semis for the right to face jordan burroughs in the finals? or 86kg have kyle dake vs j'den cox in the semis to take on pat downey, meanwhile DT doesn't even get to wrestle?

 

[El-Jefe]

could an olympic weight be just a 3 man bracket if our participants at that weight and both adjacent weights medal at 2019 worlds and the lower weight goes up and higher weight goes down?

like would 74kg be a 3 man bracket where james green and kyle dake face off in the semis for the right to face jordan burroughs in the finals? or 86kg have kyle dake vs j'den cox in the semis to take on pat downey, meanwhile DT doesn't even get to wrestle?

No. Whoever qualifies for the Olympic Trials will still compete for the Team USA spot.

To pick on 74 kg: assuming they all qualify, Nolf, Hall, Martinez, and a host of others will go.

Put another way: if Dieringer, Downey, and Cox all medal, that would not squeeze Taylor out of the Olympic Trials.

 

[nerfstate]

could an olympic weight be just a 3 man bracket if our participants at that weight and both adjacent weights medal at 2019 worlds and the lower weight goes up and higher weight goes down?

like would 74kg be a 3 man bracket where james green and kyle dake face off in the semis for the right to face jordan burroughs in the finals? or 86kg have kyle dake vs j'den cox in the semis to take on pat downey, meanwhile DT doesn't even get to wrestle?

Nope—I quoted just one of several qualifying criteria. I believe OTTs are typically all around 10-12 man brackets, though I suppose 16 is theoretically possible.

Edit: Just did the math--a bracket could theoretically go from 8ish to 21ish wrestlers--but the theory gets pretty wild (like a Nashon Garrett and Joe Colon from 2 years ago situation for 3 years in a row)

Here's a theoretical rundown for a given weight class:

1. 2017-19 World Team Members (and also WTT winners): could be 1 person, or could theoretically be up to 6 guys, if each different winner was hurt before Worlds)
2. 2019 Jr. World Champs: 0-1 guy.
3. 2019 Medalists 0-2ish new people--this is where a Dieringer or a Dake could qualify with a bye to the semis by medaling in a non-olympic weight.
4. 2019 U23 Champs: 0-1
5. Bill Farrell tourney: Highest placing person who hasn't yet qualified does. so 1.
6. Senior Nationals: top 5 placers qualify
   
7. Dave Schultz tourney: Highest placing person who hasn't yet qualified does. so 1.
   
8. Pan Am Champ or Qualifier of Weight: I'm a bit confused on these 2--it's 1 or 2 people, what's the difference? I thought to qualify the weight you have to win?
9. "Last Chance Qualfier Tourney": Winner qualifies
10. 2019 NCAA Champ(s): depending on weight class shuffling, 1-3 people seems reasonable.

 

[y2jriden]

No. Whoever qualifies for the Olympic Trials will still compete for the Team USA spot.

To pick on 74 kg: assuming they all qualify, Nolf, Hall, Martinez, and a host of others will go.

Put another way: if Dieringer, Downey, and Cox all medal, that would not squeeze Taylor out of the Olympic Trials.

Since DT couldn't wrestle this year, is he back in the position of everyone else where he has to qualify or is there some waiver rule that could give a past champ a bid straight into the OTT. Not that this is the case with him but what would happen if a world champ got injured, missed the previous year, still was hurt for Sr Nats, and possibly other qualifiers, is he just screwed?

 

[nerfstate]

Since DT couldn't wrestle this year, is he back in the position of everyone else where he has to qualify or is there some waiver rule that could give a past champ a bid straight into the OTT. Not that this is the case with him but what would happen if a world champ got injured, missed the previous year, still was hurt for Sr Nats, and possibly other qualifiers, is he just screwed?

See my quote above--any World Team member (or world team trials winner ala Nashon Garrett before he got hurt 2 years ago) from 2017-2019 automatically qualifies.

David Taylor, and Zain Retherford are 100% qualified for Olympic Team Trials at the BJC at 86 and 65kg respectively--if Zain medals this week, he'll get bye to the finals.

 

[psumacw]

@nerfstate @El-Jefe

i agree with you in principle, but i'm not sure how that jives with the procedures outlined in the document. it says that a medalist in a non-olympic weight gets a spot in the semifinals at an adjacent weight and a medalist in an olympic weight gets a spot in the finals with there being no semifinal on that side. so if we have 1 spot in the finals taken and 2 spots in the semis taken, where does everybody else go? purgatory?

 

[RoarLions1]

@nerfstate @El-Jefe

i agree with you in principle, but i'm not sure how that jives with the procedures outlined in the document. it says that a medalist in a non-olympic weight gets a spot in the semifinals at an adjacent weight and a medalist in an olympic weight gets a spot in the finals with there being no semifinal on that side. so if we have 1 spot in the finals taken and 2 spots in the semis taken, where does everybody else go? purgatory?

Doubt that happens in more than one weight class, though I suppose it's possible. If a medalist goes straight to the finals, and two guys (one going up, the other down) go straight to the semis, it means all the other wrestlers are fighting for two semifinal spots. Those four semifinalists will end up after the last two bracket rounds (semi's, and challenger finals) with the winner taking on the medalist.

 

[psumacw]

Doubt that happens in more than one weight class, though I suppose it's possible. If a medalist goes straight to the finals, and two guys (one going up, the other down) go straight to the semis, it means all the other wrestlers are fighting for two semifinal spots. Those four semifinalists will end up after the last two bracket rounds (semi's, and challenger finals) with the winner taking on the medalist.

ooooooh the non-olympic weight guys get byes to the semis of the challenger bracket? is that right? so if there's a world medalist at the olympic weight then those slots effectively become quarter finals? but if there's no medalist then they're real semis?

 

[nerfstate]

@nerfstate @El-Jefe

i agree with you in principle, but i'm not sure how that jives with the procedures outlined in the document. it says that a medalist in a non-olympic weight gets a spot in the semifinals at an adjacent weight and a medalist in an olympic weight gets a spot in the finals with there being no semifinal on that side. so if we have 1 spot in the finals taken and 2 spots in the semis taken, where does everybody else go? purgatory?

Oh, I get what you're saying, but I'd bet in that case what Roar said is the way they'd handle it.

 

[RoarLions1]

Nope—I quoted just one of several qualifying criteria. I believe OTTs are typically all around 10-12 man brackets, though I suppose 16 is theoretically possible.

Edit: Just did the math--a bracket could theoretically go from 8ish to 21ish wrestlers--but the theory gets pretty wild (like a Nashon Garrett and Joe Colon from 2 years ago situation for 3 years in a row)

Here's a rundown:

1. 2017-19 World Team Members (and also WTT winners): could be 1 person, or could theoretically be up to 6 guys, if each different winner was hurt before Worlds)
2. 2019 Jr. World Champs: 0-1 guy. (NOTE: David Carr and Mason Parris are the only two eligible here, by winning Junior Gold)
3. 2019 Medalists 0-2ish new people--this is where a Dieringer or a Dake could qualify with a bye to the semis by medaling in a non-olympic weight. (Remove -- being on the World Team earns a spot, so you're covered. Medalists go to semis or finals, but are already qualified by virtue of #1 above)
4. 2019 U23 Champs: 0-1 (World Championship to be held late Oct./early Nov)
5. Bill Farrell tourney: Highest placing person who hasn't yet qualified does. so 1.
6. Senior Nationals: top 5 placers qualify
   
7. Dave Schultz tourney: Highest placing person who hasn't yet qualified does. so 1.
   
8. Pan Am Champ or Qualifier of Weight: I'm a bit confused on these 2--it's 1 or 2 people, what's the difference? I thought to qualify the weight you have to win? (A USA Gold Medalist earns a spot at the Olympic Trials. A second-place USA wrestler, IF THEY QUALIFY THE WEIGHT FOR THE OLYMPICS, as two countries qualify a weight at the Pan Am Games, earns a spot at the Olympic Trials)
9. "Last Chance Qualifier Tourney": Winner qualifies
10. 2019 NCAA Champ(s): depending on weight class shuffling, 1-3 people seems reasonable.

(Can't see any way to get to 21 wrestlers)

 

[El-Jefe]

so if we have 1 spot in the finals taken and 2 spots in the semis taken, where does everybody else go? purgatory?

To the Cornell attorney's office.

 

[nerfstate]

@RoarLions1 I was going for theoretical maximums (independent of actual results, say at Juniors, etc) at any given weight class. But it gets looney. So for critera #1--that could be 6 guys in theory, but it would never happen. Criteria 3 could be 2 additional guys in the hypothetical where 2 medalists at non olymipc weights converge. A similar thing could happen with NCAA winners.

 

[rmg78]

Nope—I quoted just one of several qualifying criteria. I believe OTTs are typically all around 10-12 man brackets, though I suppose 16 is theoretically possible.

Edit: Just did the math--a bracket could theoretically go from 8ish to 21ish wrestlers--but the theory gets pretty wild (like a Nashon Garrett and Joe Colon from 2 years ago situation for 3 years in a row)

Here's a rundown:

1. 2017-19 World Team Members (and also WTT winners): could be 1 person, or could theoretically be up to 6 guys, if each different winner was hurt before Worlds)
2. 2019 Jr. World Champs: 0-1 guy.
3. 2019 Medalists 0-2ish new people--this is where a Dieringer or a Dake could qualify with a bye to the semis by medaling in a non-olympic weight.
4. 2019 U23 Champs: 0-1
5. Bill Farrell tourney: Highest placing person who hasn't yet qualified does. so 1.
6. Senior Nationals: top 5 placers qualify
   
7. Dave Schultz tourney: Highest placing person who hasn't yet qualified does. so 1.
   
8. Pan Am Champ or Qualifier of Weight: I'm a bit confused on these 2--it's 1 or 2 people, what's the difference? I thought to qualify the weight you have to win?
9. "Last Chance Qualfier Tourney": Winner qualifies
10. 2019 NCAA Champ(s): depending on weight class shuffling, 1-3 people seems reasonable.

Nope—I quoted just one of several qualifying criteria. I believe OTTs are typically all around 10-12 man brackets, though I suppose 16 is theoretically possible.

Edit: Just did the math--a bracket could theoretically go from 8ish to 21ish wrestlers--but the theory gets pretty wild (like a Nashon Garrett and Joe Colon from 2 years ago situation for 3 years in a row)

Here's a rundown:

1. 2017-19 World Team Members (and also WTT winners): could be 1 person, or could theoretically be up to 6 guys, if each different winner was hurt before Worlds)
2. 2019 Jr. World Champs: 0-1 guy.
3. 2019 Medalists 0-2ish new people--this is where a Dieringer or a Dake could qualify with a bye to the semis by medaling in a non-olympic weight.
4. 2019 U23 Champs: 0-1
5. Bill Farrell tourney: Highest placing person who hasn't yet qualified does. so 1.
6. Senior Nationals: top 5 placers qualify
   
7. Dave Schultz tourney: Highest placing person who hasn't yet qualified does. so 1.
   
8. Pan Am Champ or Qualifier of Weight: I'm a bit confused on these 2--it's 1 or 2 people, what's the difference? I thought to qualify the weight you have to win?
9. "Last Chance Qualfier Tourney": Winner qualifies
10. 2019 NCAA Champ(s): depending on weight class shuffling, 1-3 people seems reasonable.

As for 2019 Junior World champs it only adds David Carr at 74 and Mason Parrish at 125. I am not positive but for the 2019 U23's you can add possibly 3 to a weight class, for example if our 61,65 and 70 all win they could go 65 at the trials.
For the Pan Am Olympic qualifier I believe the finalists qualify the weight for their country so if wrestler A, makes the final and has not qualified for trials yet he would then be qualified for the trials.
That I am pretty sure separate from the Pan Am Championships were a winner would qualify for the trials.

 

[rmg78]

Right now there actually are not that many guys qualified for the trial. I think less than 20 total.

 

[nerfstate]

I've tried to say it a few times: 20+ is an absurd number--but theoretically possible in some future scenario (not 2020)...

Here's how many were in each bracket (including JB and Snyder sitting out) in 2016:

• 57kg 11
• 65kg 14
• 74kg 12
• 86kg 12
• 97kg 13
• 125kg 11

 

[nerfstate]

Willie with exactly no picks for gold for Mother Russia in MFS. Wouldn't that be awesome? Hoping Zain proves him wrong at 65 though.

 

[Yankeefan33]

Right now there actually are not that many guys qualified for the trial. I think less than 20 total.

My list:
57kg- Gilman, Fix, Colon, Garrett, Graff
65kg- Stieber, Retherford
74kg- Green, Burroughs, Dake, Carr
86kg- Cox, Taylor, Downey
97kg- Snyder
125kg- Gwiazdowski, Parris

There are 10 ways to qualify. The first two are included above.


1. 2017, 2018 or 2019 USA World Championships Participant and Final World Team Trials Champion
2. 2019 Junior World Champion
3. 2019 U23 World Champion
4. 2019 Bill Farrell International Open (highest US placer)
5. 2019 U.S. Olympic Trials Qualifier (Top 5)
6. 2020 Dave Schultz Memorial International (highest US placer)
7. 2020 Pan American Championships
8. 2020 Pan American Olympic Qualifier
9. NCAA Division I Championships
10. Final U.S. Olympic Trials Qualifier

I think the minimum # of qualifiers would be 7 (like at 97kg). Without messing up things too much, max would be around 22 (already not possible, but theoretically possible).

 

[RoarLions1]

The weight classes with the fewest "theoreticals" are 57kg, 97kg, and 125kg.

125kg because there's no non-Olympic weight class between 97 and 125 to "bump up". 97kg because there no non-Olympic weight class between it and 125kg to "bump down" from, so all that may happen is a bump up from 92kg. And 57kg, as there's nothing below it to "bump up" from...only possibility is bumping down from non-Olympic weight 61kg (Suriano?).

 

[dane63]

Hopefully track dosent drop the ball on this like they did last year.

 

[RoarLions1]

Bump...and reminder that the World Championships kick off with Greco, with Women's Freestyle in the middle, followed by Men's Freestyle (starting 9/19). Greco action starts 9/14.

 

[Yankeefan33]

Bump...and reminder that the World Championships kick off with Greco, with Women's Freestyle in the middle, followed by Men's Freestyle (starting 9/19). Greco action starts 9/14.

Tournament Schedule
Saturday, September 14
11:00-16:00 Qualification Rounds GR 55-63-72-82kg
18:00-19:30 Semifinals GR 55-63-72-82kg

Sunday, September 15
11:00-16:00 Qualification Rounds GR 67-87-97kg
11:00-16:00 Repechage GR 55-63-72-82kg
16:45-17:30 Opening Ceremony
18:00-18:45 Semifinals GR 67-87-97kg
19:00-22:00 Finals GR 55-63-72-82kg

Monday, September 16
11:00-16:00 Qualification Rounds GR 60-77-130kg
11:00-16:00 Repechage GR 67-87-97kg
17:00-17:45 Semifinals GR 60-77-130kg
18:00-20:30 Finals GR 67-87-97kg

Tuesday, September 17
11:00-15:00 Qualification Rounds WW 50-53-55-72kg
11:00-15:00 Repechage GR 60-77-130kg
16:45-17:45 Semifinals WW 50-53-55-72kg
18:00-20:30 Finals GR 60-77-130kg

Wednesday, September 18
11:00-15:00 Qualification Rounds WW 57-59-65-76kg
11:00-15:00 Repechage WW 50-53-55-72kg
16:45-17:45 Semifinals WW 57-59-65-76kg
18:00-21:00 Finals WW 50-53-55-72kg

Thursday, September 19
11:00-16:00 Qualification Rounds WW 62-68; FS 57-65
11:00-16:00 Repechage WW 57-59-65-76kg
16:45-17:45 Semifinals WW 62-68; FS 57-65
18:00-21:00 Finals WW 57-59-65-76kg

Friday, September 20
11:00-16:00 Qualification Rounds FS 70-74-92-125kg
11:00-16:00 Repechage WW 62-68; FS 57-65
16:45-17:45 Semifinals FS 70-74-92-125kg
18:00-21:00 Finals WW 62-68; FS 57-65

Saturday, September 21
11:00-16:00 Qualification Rounds FS 61-79-86-97kg
11:00-16:00 Repechage FS 70-74-92-125kg
16:45-17:45 Semifinals FS 61-79-86-97kg
18:00-21:00 Finals FS 70-74-92-125kg

Sunday, September 22
15:30-17:30 Repechage FS 61-79-86-97kg
18:00-21:00 Finals FS 61-79-86-97kg

 

[ejzeppelin42]

Anyone know if Flo will be showing this or is just going to be on Trackwrestling? Thanks in advance!

 

[CropDuster507]

What time (in American) does this shit get popping off tomorrow morning/tonight?

I made it through my week just to attempt to watch this.

 

[nerfstate]

Anyone know if Flo will be showing this or is just going to be on Trackwrestling? Thanks in advance!

I don't think Flo has any broadcast rights. In addition to Track, there is also NBC's coverage (on Olympic Channel, or via stream if you get the Olympic Channel). If you (or your IP address) is outside the US, there is also free streams on UWW's website.

What time (in American) does this shit get popping off tomorrow morning/tonight?

I made it through my week just to attempt to watch this.

Print and pin

View embedded media

 

[CropDuster507]

Improvement-evident Day 1, though all guys are dependent on repechage.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

Quick update on first day Greco action.

55: Nowry wins first one against Schmidt (GER), loses to KAZ. Needs KAZ to beat #1 seed to get pulled back in, I believe.
63: Mango beats Portugal, loses to Turkey. Needs TUR to beat Japan to get pulled back in.
72: Bunker beats India, loses to #1 seed BUL. Needs BUL to beat UZB.
82: Stefanowicz loses to GEO. Needs GEO to beat UZB.

Semi-finals begin at 8:00 AM Eastern.
Repecharge at 1:00 AM tomorrow. Someone else can update.

 

[El-Jefe]

 

[pawrestlersintn]

Nowry and Stefanowic get pulled back in. Both will need to win 2 matches to place third.

 

[psumacw]

nowry wrestling for 3rd at 9am eastern on olympic channel

 

[nerfstate]

well, that was unfortunately a little fast. Nowry goes down 0-8 39 seconds.

 

[Str8DBLz]

Live feed from worlds.

 

[CropDuster507]

Nowry drops the medal match to end up in 5th. Coleman, Hancock, and Rau all go down without a chance to be pulled back in.

Smith, Hafisov, and Coon round out Greco tonight at midnight.

 

[nerfstate]

Not a great result with those guys either. Even Coon is out.

However, Tony wins gold for this epic pic

 

[lookleft goright]

I think I would be concerned for my job if a kid comes out of college, having not practiced hardly any greco in years, and takes second at the world tournament. Then one year later after having the use of my knowledge and training techniques etc, he loses in his first match at the worlds and does not get pulled back in. I speak of Coon as the wrestler and Lindland as the coach. Just in case no one knew what I was talking about.

 

[nerfstate]

I think I would be concerned for my job if a kid comes out of college, having not practiced hardly any greco in years, and takes second at the world tournament. Then one year later after having the use of my knowledge and training techniques etc, he loses in his first match at the worlds and does not get pulled back in. I speak of Coon as the wrestler and Lindland as the coach. Just in case no one knew what I was talking about.

I don't know enough to really comment--but Meng gave Coon a great bout last year in their 2nd round bout--right up until Adam threw him to his back for 4 and eventual fall. Maybe some of the issue is Adam's main hold in greco (over-under body lock) was scouted this year.

 

[El-Jefe]

I think I would be concerned for my job if a kid comes out of college, having not practiced hardly any greco in years, and takes second at the world tournament. Then one year later after having the use of my knowledge and training techniques etc, he loses in his first match at the worlds and does not get pulled back in. I speak of Coon as the wrestler and Lindland as the coach. Just in case no one knew what I was talking about.

What part of "does not pulled back in" does the coach have any effect on?

 

[funkisfun12]

As hard as I've tried, I just can't get into Greco. I know that some guys can really appreciate the style, and I envy them. Ha! Anyone else struggle with really looking forward to watching Greco?

 

[rmg78]

What part of "does not pulled back in" does the coach have any effect on?

Also, and they talked about this a while back in FRL, it is not uncommon for a first year senior level wrestler to win a medal first year and then not place the next. Foreign opponents do not know your style or anything else about you and you can throw them off that first year. Not sure if you can call this regression.

 

[CropDuster507]

I think I would be concerned for my job if a kid comes out of college, having not practiced hardly any greco in years, and takes second at the world tournament. Then one year later after having the use of my knowledge and training techniques etc, he loses in his first match at the worlds and does not get pulled back in. I speak of Coon as the wrestler and Lindland as the coach. Just in case no one knew what I was talking about.

I will say this. I have the utmost respect for Coach Lindland. I've watched him work. I believe in what he and other stakeholders have set out. You can see the athletes are, too. It takes time, but I'm sure he's on the hot-seat.

From what I've heard, he is on the hot-seat and NMU might even be seeing cuts. What $&%(ing kills me is that this is what lead to the downfall of Greco post-2007. I have discussed with others back when Ivan left NMU and they wanted everyone to move out to the OTC and the NMU guys weren't down to do it. Guys who had won medals and were the future at that time.

I don't know. I get that they need to produce Senior level results, and if they don't, things need to change. I just don't reside in the corner of radical change that hasn't necessarily worked before.

That Rau interview got me, man.

 

[Dogwelder]

What part of "does not pulled back in" does the coach have any effect on?

To be fair, the coach has some effect on “if you lose, it should only be to someone extremely good.”