A question for baseball purists

[Obliviax]

Yeah the Rays traded Snell to the 'small market' Padres. And the 'big market' Cubs traded Darvish to the 'small market' Padres. And the 'small market' Padres signed Manny Machado to a 300M contract. How is that possible?

I don't manage to the exception. The padres have been, traditionally, a low spending team. But even with that spending, they are still $50m less than the Dodgers for 2021 salary. When you have 30 teams you can always point out the anomaly.

Five years ago. the Padres were 20th in spending at $100m. Only $1m more than the Pirates.

 

[cjrugger]

I don't manage to the exception. The padres have been, traditionally, a low spending team. But even with that spending, they are still $50m less than the Dodgers for 2021 salary. When you have 30 teams you can always point out the anomaly.

Five years ago. the Padres were 20th in spending at $100m. Only $1m more than the Pirates.

Exactly. So other teams can do it if they want to, they choose not to and then sell a ‘poor us, we can’t compete’ song to their fans every years

 

[PearlSUJam]

Yeah the Rays traded Snell to the 'small market' Padres. And the 'big market' Cubs traded Darvish to the 'small market' Padres. And the 'small market' Padres signed Manny Machado to a 300M contract. How is that possible?

The owners chose to spend the money not pocket it all.

Here's an example of all the money generated by T..V. in MLB---the second highest grossing sport in the world.

Major League Baseball
The second-highest grossing league in the world is Major League Baseball, which grossed a little more than $10 billion in 2017. The league became the second sports league to exceed that threshold.

Major League Baseball can’t match the NFL in its number of valuable franchises; only six place on Forbes’ list of 50 most valuable sports franchises. However, MLB’s most valuable franchise, the New York Yankees, ranks fifth on the list at $4 billion, greater than every NFL franchise except the Dallas Cowboys.

A big difference between the NFL and MLB is the use of regional sports networks. Baseball teams collect millions of dollars each year from regional TV networks. However, not all teams are big winners in their regional TV deals. One franchise sets the example of how to profit big off of the deals.

Globe Life Park, home of the Texas Rangers. (Photo by Visions of America/UIG via Getty Images)
After signing a new television deal in 2014 with Spectrum Sportsnet LA worth $8.35 billion over 25 years, the Los Angeles Dodgers, who are the majority owner of the regional sports network, made $204 million in revenue off of TV money alone in 2016.

Only one other team, the Los Angeles Angels, collected more than $100 million ($118) in TV revenue in 2016. The after-effects of these types of contracts are massive.

The Angels signed their deal in 2012, tripling the TV revenue they received from their 10-year, $500 million contract that expired in 2011. Since more TV revenue tends to lead to a bigger payroll, the Angels shelled out a combined $331.5 million to top free agents Albert Pujols and C.J. Wilson. Five of the top 10 TV revenue teams also rank in the top 10 in payroll.

Attendance is a major revenue stream for Major League Baseball. Attendance dropped four percent in the 2018, creating the lowest overall league attendance since 2003. Seventeen of 30 teams had an attendance decrease, leading to $93.7 million in lost ticket revenue.

The average MLB ticket price has risen every season since 2006 and the average price was $32.44 in 2018. It is unclear how much the cost of attending a game is affecting the attendance numbers. The decrease in attendance also affects concessions sales. Based on the attendance decline, the league estimated almost $50 million in concession sales was lost.

Major sports leagues all make a lot of money, here's how they do it:

A huge amount of money was poured into the professional sports market in 2018. One-hundred and six sports franchises worldwide are valued at over $1 billion

globalsportmatters.com

 

[wbcincy]

No I'm talking about MLB stars as a whole vs. the other 3 leagues(especially if you consider their time in the minors). You're talking about small MLB markets vs. the other 3 leagues.

So tell me, in your opinion, what would be a fair cap when looking at this? Keep in mind that if you add a cap you're getting rid of the luxury tax(revenue sharing) as well.

Opening day payrolls of Major League Baseball teams in 2020(in million U.S. dollars)

	Total payroll in million U.S. dollars
New York Yankees	254.19
Los Angeles Dodgers	227.83
Houston Astros	215.39
Boston Red Sox	191.05
Chicago Cubs	190.38
Philadelphia Phillies	183.7
Los Angeles Angels	179.59
St. Louis Cardinals	169.34
New York Mets	168.68
Washington Nationals	168.64
San Francisco Giants	163.2
Atlanta Braves	159.33
Colorado Rockies	157.28
Texas Rangers	153.59
San Diego Padres	153.12
Cincinnati Reds	143.14
Minnesota Twins	138.6
Chicago White Sox	130.25
Arizona Diamondbacks	120.21
Toronto Blue Jays	110.76
Detroit Tigers	105.53
Seattle Mariners	102.71
Milwaukee Brewers	100.66
Oakland Athletics	95.46
Cleveland Indians	91.76
Kansas City Royals	86.58
Tampa Bay Rays	72.1
Pittsburgh Pirates	63.31
Baltimore Orioles	59.99
Miami Marlins	58.99

MLB opening day payroll by team 2022 | Statista

The opening day payroll of teams in the MLB is calculated by combining the base salary, incentives, and any signing bonuses.

www.statista.com

I’m sorry, I don’t know how to continue this conversation with you when you keep saying untrue things. “Keep in mind revenue sharing goes away with a cap.” What? Every league with a cap has SIGNIFICANT revenue sharing. That’s how there’s a floor. So your basis is just false.

 

[wbcincy]

Tell that to WB, he says the owners aren’t making any money.

Yet for some reason, billionaires keep lining up to buy teams

Come on now, that isn't what I said. I said they aren't losing money, and I said they aren't pocketing huge sums such that if they spent that money on payroll instead, it would change their fortunes. I'm sure the Pirates likely profit ~$20mm. That's not enough for one star pitcher.

Yeah the Rays traded Snell to the 'small market' Padres. And the 'big market' Cubs traded Darvish to the 'small market' Padres. And the 'small market' Padres signed Manny Machado to a 300M contract. How is that possible?

Let's see where the Padres are with those things in 2 years. Remember when the Marlins went on a huge spending spree 5 years ago? Then they traded all those contracts away. I guarantee the Padres don't pay that full contract to Machado.

 

[wbcincy]

The owners chose to spend the money not pocket it all.

Here's an example of all the money generated by T..V. in MLB---the second highest grossing sport in the world.

Major League Baseball
The second-highest grossing league in the world is Major League Baseball, which grossed a little more than $10 billion in 2017. The league became the second sports league to exceed that threshold.

Major League Baseball can’t match the NFL in its number of valuable franchises; only six place on Forbes’ list of 50 most valuable sports franchises. However, MLB’s most valuable franchise, the New York Yankees, ranks fifth on the list at $4 billion, greater than every NFL franchise except the Dallas Cowboys.

A big difference between the NFL and MLB is the use of regional sports networks. Baseball teams collect millions of dollars each year from regional TV networks. However, not all teams are big winners in their regional TV deals. One franchise sets the example of how to profit big off of the deals.

Globe Life Park, home of the Texas Rangers. (Photo by Visions of America/UIG via Getty Images)
After signing a new television deal in 2014 with Spectrum Sportsnet LA worth $8.35 billion over 25 years, the Los Angeles Dodgers, who are the majority owner of the regional sports network, made $204 million in revenue off of TV money alone in 2016.

Only one other team, the Los Angeles Angels, collected more than $100 million ($118) in TV revenue in 2016. The after-effects of these types of contracts are massive.

The Angels signed their deal in 2012, tripling the TV revenue they received from their 10-year, $500 million contract that expired in 2011. Since more TV revenue tends to lead to a bigger payroll, the Angels shelled out a combined $331.5 million to top free agents Albert Pujols and C.J. Wilson. Five of the top 10 TV revenue teams also rank in the top 10 in payroll.

Attendance is a major revenue stream for Major League Baseball. Attendance dropped four percent in the 2018, creating the lowest overall league attendance since 2003. Seventeen of 30 teams had an attendance decrease, leading to $93.7 million in lost ticket revenue.

The average MLB ticket price has risen every season since 2006 and the average price was $32.44 in 2018. It is unclear how much the cost of attending a game is affecting the attendance numbers. The decrease in attendance also affects concessions sales. Based on the attendance decline, the league estimated almost $50 million in concession sales was lost.

Major sports leagues all make a lot of money, here's how they do it:

A huge amount of money was poured into the professional sports market in 2018. One-hundred and six sports franchises worldwide are valued at over $1 billion

globalsportmatters.com

The regional sports networks is actually one of the biggest things causing the separation between the haves and have-nots. The Dodgers get $200mm a year from local TV while the Pirates were getting $25mm. But the Pirates are supposed to compete with them?

 

[PearlSUJam]

I’m sorry, I don’t know how to continue this conversation with you when you keep saying untrue things. “Keep in mind revenue sharing goes away with a cap.” What? Every league with a cap has SIGNIFICANT revenue sharing. That’s how there’s a floor. So your basis is just false.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I specifically said the cap would eliminate the luxury tax. I'm aware of the revenue sharing in other sports. NBA, NHL and NFL are primarily through TV deals. What makes MLB and to some extent College Football different is the ability for teams to cut television deals and make huge profits. So should the MLB make the teams split the TV revenue 30 ways?

 

[PearlSUJam]

The regional sports networks is actually one of the biggest things causing the separation between the haves and have-nots. The Dodgers get $200mm a year from local TV while the Pirates were getting $25mm. But the Pirates are supposed to compete with them?

I agree and just posted that above. BTW, I appreciate the banter back and forth.

 

[cjrugger]

Come on now, that isn't what I said. I said they aren't losing money, and I said they aren't pocketing huge sums such that if they spent that money on payroll instead, it would change their fortunes. I'm sure the Pirates likely profit ~$20mm. That's not enough for one star pitcher.



Let's see where the Padres are with those things in 2 years. Remember when the Marlins went on a huge spending spree 5 years ago? Then they traded all those contracts away. I guarantee the Padres don't pay that full contract to Machado.

The Pirates should be spending that 20M on the product. That’s the whole point

And if they’re only making 20M, they’re not going to be able to pay up to the floor that you want without the owner paying from his own pocket, which for some reason you think doesn’t happen

 

[cjrugger]

The regional sports networks is actually one of the biggest things causing the separation between the haves and have-nots. The Dodgers get $200mm a year from local TV while the Pirates were getting $25mm. But the Pirates are supposed to compete with them?

The Dodgers are paying a chunk of the Pirates payroll actually

In Major League Baseball, 48% of local revenues are subject to revenue sharing and are distributed equally among all 30 teams, with each team receiving 3.3% of the total sum generated. As a result, in 2018, each team received $118 million from this pot. Teams also receive a share of national revenues, which were estimated to be $91 million per team, also in 2018.

Revenue sharing - BR Bullpen

www.baseball-reference.com

 

[91Joe95]

Once they starting putting a new ball in play after a pitch in the dirt, the game changed. New inning = new ball as well. 30 years ago, a ball in the dirt went back to the pitcher, 3rd out of an inning it was rolled back out to the mound. Now its a new 'marble' every pitch almost.

Go back to using the same ball all teh time and HR's will go down

Just like my golf game.

 

[Obliviax]

Exactly. So other teams can do it if they want to, they choose not to and then sell a ‘poor us, we can’t compete’ song to their fans every years

I don't agree.

Plus, San Diego isn't a small market. It is the 8th largest city in the nation. Cleveland is 53, KC 38, Cincy 64, Pittsburgh 66 and so on.

 

[cjrugger]

I don't agree.

Plus, San Diego isn't a small market. It is the 8th largest city in the nation. Cleveland is 53, KC 38, Cincy 64, Pittsburgh 66 and so on.

You're not counting suburbs

Nielsen DMAs 2020 - MediaTracks Communications

See the latest complete list of the Nielsen DMA Rankings 2020 to implement successful PR campaigns. See the Designated Market Areas (DMAs) for 2020.

mediatracks.com

19 Cleveland
24 Pittsburgh
29 San Diego

 

[Obliviax]

You're not counting suburbs

Nielsen DMAs 2020 - MediaTracks Communications

See the latest complete list of the Nielsen DMA Rankings 2020 to implement successful PR campaigns. See the Designated Market Areas (DMAs) for 2020.

mediatracks.com

19 Cleveland
24 Pittsburgh
29 San Diego

true...but Pitt competes with Philly and Washington. CLE with the Tigers and Reds. At the end of the day, the teams have to sustain some level of competitiveness and entertainment. Those take stars. The small market teams, yearly, lose their stars to the large market teams.

 

[cjrugger]

true...but Pitt competes with Philly and Washington. CLE with the Tigers and Reds. At the end of the day, the teams have to sustain some level of competitiveness and entertainment. Those take stars. The small market teams, yearly, lose their stars to the large market teams.

Wtf are you talking about? Compete with Philly and Washington for what?

 

[Obliviax]

Wtf are you talking about? Compete with Philly and Washington for what?

Well, this is kinda how teams make money...so....

 

[cjrugger]

Well, this is kinda how teams make money...so....

San Diego is 120 miles away from a little city called Los Angeles. What is your point?

 

[Obliviax]

This is funny....his description of baseball is funny

 

[wbcincy]

I agree and just posted that above. BTW, I appreciate the banter back and forth.

The Pirates should be spending that 20M on the product. That’s the whole point

And if they’re only making 20M, they’re not going to be able to pay up to the floor that you want without the owner paying from his own pocket, which for some reason you think doesn’t happen

We aren't going to agree gentlemen, but as PearlSUJam said, appreciate the conversation without it ending up in the gutter. There'll be a new labor deal negotiated after this season, will be interesting to see which way it goes.

 

[PearlSUJam]

Then they better allow the pitcher to rub up the ball a little bit more than they do. These guys are throwing marbles at a hundred miles an hour. One of my former players is a closer in the big leagues and he told me the reason that many of the teams don't care about pitchers using pine tar is because it actually makes the game safer. Too many accidental hit batters because the balls so smooth they can't control it

 

[bison13]

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raise the seams on the ball and them Im ok with this

 

[WDLion]

Pittsburgh can no longer support a major league baseball team. The only way they will ever be competitive again is if Nutting sells the team to a sugar daddy owner who spends hundreds of millions of dollars of his own money to build a team. Without a sugar daddy owner the Pirates should just move out of Pittsburgh. They can be replaced by a Triple A team, which Pittsburgh could support.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[PearlSUJam]

raise the seams on the ball and them Im ok with this

 

[lionville]

I believe they are going to keep balls in the humidors so that they don't get damp or dry...they are consistent, like a cigar. The average life of a baseball is six pitches. So the ball boy gets them, gives them to the Ump, the ump uses them. They'll not be in the wild for more than five or ten minutes.

The idea isn't to change the atmosphere but to minimize the ball's density due to the atmosphere. It changes the game in several ways: Pitcher's grip, bite of the ball in flight from the mound to the plate, heaviness of the ball when hit, and compression.

It also helps teams to be more consistent for pitchers in places like Boston or Pittsburgh where you may get a no humidity day and then get a high humidity day the next. I know pitchers sometimes struggle to grip the ball on low humidity days.

After the games, the umpires can smoke the ones left over.

 

[dbsteel]

I hear you. There needs to be a cap and there needs to be a floor. Sure small market teams of course can "win" (the Rays didn't BTW), but there is zero room for error, and a lot of luck needed. Plus the Rays run was in a freaky short year where lack of depth didn't kill you.

All teams need to be smart though. The Angels don't win much of anything.

yes...but then they had to give up their two best pitchers. The measure really isn't who won the WS. It is about being able to build and keep a fan base. People come to the park to watch stars.

here is a case in point: Trevor Bauer was just signed by the dodgers for $41m next season. He is going to make more next season than the entire payrolls of PIrates, Indians and Baltimore. Right now, the Dodgers payroll is expected to be $234m. The league average is $114m.

sama