70 Years Ago Today ...

[Tom McAndrew]

members of the US Army's 45th Infantry Division liberated Dachau, which was the first concentration camp established by the Nazis.

Dachau was established in 1933, just over a month after Hitler took power. During its early years, most of those at Dachau were political opponents of the Nazis. It was not until 1938 that Jews made up the majority of the prisoners at Dachau.

Those imprisoned at Dachau were forced to perform labor. The initial prisoners built the camp. Later prisoners were forced to work in German armaments factories.

Besides being the 1st concentration camp established by the Nazis, Dachau is memorable for several other reasons, including:

- it was the training center for SS concentration camp guards
- it was the model used for most other concentration camps
- it was the first camp where prisoners were used as human guinea pigs in medical experiments

To make things even more confusing, to increase the production of armaments, a number of satellite camps were established in Southern German and Austria in 1944. These camps were all administered by the main camp, and were collectively called Dachau. Today is the anniversary of the liberation of the main camp.

When German forces started losing on all fronts in 1945, the SS transferred prisoners from concentration camps located near the front to Dachau. This caused overcrowding at Dachau, and an outbreak of typhus.

On the evening of April 26th, as Allied forces neared Dachau, about 7,000 Jewish prisoners were forced on a death march from Dachau to Tegernsee, which was about 70 miles away. It was raining heavily during the first day of the march, which was an additional burden to the weakened and emaciated prisoners. Many of the prisoners cast away their jackets, as they became too heavy due to the rain. After a day of marching in the rain, they slept in the woods while it continued to rain. The best research I've read on the March indicates that 987 prisoners died during the death march.

On April 28th, most of the SS guards abandoned Dachau, though a skeleton crew remained there, and actually battled units of the 45th Infantry before they were subdued during the camps liberation.

Outside the camp, the US soldiers found 30 railroad cars filled with dead prisoners in various states of decomposition. Inside the camp, the soldiers found about 30,000 survivors. The troops were so appalled by what they found, that they machine-gunned two or more groups of SS guards that they captured when they liberated the camp.

The Americans were stunned by the repeated claims by the citizens of the town of Dachau that they had no idea what took place at the concentration camp. One consequence of this was that the US authorities forced many of the local citizens to participate in the burial of the approximately 9,000 dead prisoners that were discovered in and around the camp.

Earlier today, some of the liberators, and some of the former prisoners, gathered at Dachau to celebrate the anniversary of the liberation. You can hear an NPR report, which includes interviews with some of the liberators, and I believe 1 former prisoner, that participated in the liberation celebration at THIS LINK.

Between 1933 and 1945, over 160,000 prisoners were detained at some point at the main camp at Dachau, and 90,000 prisoners were detained at some point at the satellite camps. At least 32,000 prisoners died at Dachau, and an additional number died at other concentration camps after being shipped from Dachau. (For many years, when prisoners at Dachau became too sick or too weak to work in the armament factories, they were shipped to Linz, Austria, where the Nazis had an extermination center.)

Sorry for so many details. I thought those that liberated the camp, and those that were imprisoned in the camp, deserved more than just a paragraph or two.

For those that are WW II buffs, I should also point out that the German Army in Italy unconditionally surrendered to the Allies 70 years ago today.

Tom

 

[psuted]

members of the US Army's 45th Infantry Division liberated Dachau, which was the first concentration camp established by the Nazis.

Dachau was established in 1933, just over a month after Hitler took power. During its early years, most of those at Dachau were political opponents of the Nazis. It was not until 1938 that Jews made up the majority of the prisoners at Dachau.

Those imprisoned at Dachau were forced to perform labor. The initial prisoners built the camp. Later prisoners were forced to work in German armaments factories.

Besides being the 1st concentration camp established by the Nazis, Dachau is memorable for several other reasons, including:

- it was the training center for SS concentration camp guards
- it was the model used for most other concentration camps
- it was the first camp where prisoners were used as human guinea pigs in medical experiments

To make things even more confusing, to increase the production of armaments, a number of satellite camps were established in Southern German and Austria in 1944. These camps were all administered by the main camp, and were collectively called Dachau. Today is the anniversary of the liberation of the main camp.

When German forces started losing on all fronts in 1945, the SS transferred prisoners from concentration camps located near the front to Dachau. This caused overcrowding at Dachau, and an outbreak of typhus.

On the evening of April 26th, as Allied forces neared Dachau, about 7,000 Jewish prisoners were forced on a death march from Dachau to Tegernsee, which was about 70 miles away. It was raining heavily during the first day of the march, which was an additional burden to the weakened and emaciated prisoners. Many of the prisoners cast away their jackets, as they became too heavy due to the rain. After a day of marching in the rain, they slept in the woods while it continued to rain. The best research I've read on the March indicates that 987 prisoners died during the death march.

On April 28th, most of the SS guards abandoned Dachau, though a skeleton crew remained there, and actually battled units of the 45th Infantry before they were subdued during the camps liberation.

Outside the camp, the US soldiers found 30 railroad cars filled with dead prisoners in various states of decomposition. Inside the camp, the soldiers found about 30,000 survivors. The troops were so appalled by what they found, that they machine-gunned two or more groups of SS guards that they captured when they liberated the camp.

The Americans were stunned by the repeated claims by the citizens of the town of Dachau that they had no idea what took place at the concentration camp. One consequence of this was that the US authorities forced many of the local citizens to participate in the burial of the approximately 9,000 dead prisoners that were discovered in and around the camp.

Earlier today, some of the liberators, and some of the former prisoners, gathered at Dachau to celebrate the anniversary of the liberation. You can hear an NPR report, which includes interviews with some of the liberators, and I believe 1 former prisoner, that participated in the liberation celebration at THIS LINK.

Between 1933 and 1945, over 160,000 prisoners were detained at some point at the main camp at Dachau, and 90,000 prisoners were detailed at some point at the satellite camps. At least 32,000 prisoners died at Dachau, and an additional number died at other concentration camps after being shipped from Dachau. (For many years, when prisoners at Dachau became too sick or too weak to work in the armament factories, they were shipped to Linz, Austria, where the Nazis had an extermination center.)

Sorry for so many details. I thought those that liberated the camp, and those that were imprisoned in the camp, deserved more than just a paragraph or two.

For those that are WW II buffs, I should also point out that the German Army in Italy unconditionally surrendered to the Allies 70 years ago today.

Tom

members of the US Army's 45th Infantry Division liberated Dachau, which was the first concentration camp established by the Nazis.

Dachau was established in 1933, just over a month after Hitler took power. During its early years, most of those at Dachau were political opponents of the Nazis. It was not until 1938 that Jews made up the majority of the prisoners at Dachau.

Those imprisoned at Dachau were forced to perform labor. The initial prisoners built the camp. Later prisoners were forced to work in German armaments factories.

Besides being the 1st concentration camp established by the Nazis, Dachau is memorable for several other reasons, including:

- it was the training center for SS concentration camp guards
- it was the model used for most other concentration camps
- it was the first camp where prisoners were used as human guinea pigs in medical experiments

To make things even more confusing, to increase the production of armaments, a number of satellite camps were established in Southern German and Austria in 1944. These camps were all administered by the main camp, and were collectively called Dachau. Today is the anniversary of the liberation of the main camp.

When German forces started losing on all fronts in 1945, the SS transferred prisoners from concentration camps located near the front to Dachau. This caused overcrowding at Dachau, and an outbreak of typhus.

On the evening of April 26th, as Allied forces neared Dachau, about 7,000 Jewish prisoners were forced on a death march from Dachau to Tegernsee, which was about 70 miles away. It was raining heavily during the first day of the march, which was an additional burden to the weakened and emaciated prisoners. Many of the prisoners cast away their jackets, as they became too heavy due to the rain. After a day of marching in the rain, they slept in the woods while it continued to rain. The best research I've read on the March indicates that 987 prisoners died during the death march.

On April 28th, most of the SS guards abandoned Dachau, though a skeleton crew remained there, and actually battled units of the 45th Infantry before they were subdued during the camps liberation.

Outside the camp, the US soldiers found 30 railroad cars filled with dead prisoners in various states of decomposition. Inside the camp, the soldiers found about 30,000 survivors. The troops were so appalled by what they found, that they machine-gunned two or more groups of SS guards that they captured when they liberated the camp.

The Americans were stunned by the repeated claims by the citizens of the town of Dachau that they had no idea what took place at the concentration camp. One consequence of this was that the US authorities forced many of the local citizens to participate in the burial of the approximately 9,000 dead prisoners that were discovered in and around the camp.

Earlier today, some of the liberators, and some of the former prisoners, gathered at Dachau to celebrate the anniversary of the liberation. You can hear an NPR report, which includes interviews with some of the liberators, and I believe 1 former prisoner, that participated in the liberation celebration at THIS LINK.

Between 1933 and 1945, over 160,000 prisoners were detained at some point at the main camp at Dachau, and 90,000 prisoners were detailed at some point at the satellite camps. At least 32,000 prisoners died at Dachau, and an additional number died at other concentration camps after being shipped from Dachau. (For many years, when prisoners at Dachau became too sick or too weak to work in the armament factories, they were shipped to Linz, Austria, where the Nazis had an extermination center.)

Sorry for so many details. I thought those that liberated the camp, and those that were imprisoned in the camp, deserved more than just a paragraph or two.

For those that are WW II buffs, I should also point out that the German Army in Italy unconditionally surrendered to the Allies 70 years ago today.

Tom

My Father was there and I have photographs of the camp after it was liberated. It's unbelievable to see just how cruel the Nazis were.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

My Father was there and I have photographs of the camp after it was liberated.

I'm all eyes and ears, for any stories you can share about his experiences in the liberation.

It's unbelievable to see just how cruel the Nazis were.

I've visited the Holocaust museum multiple times, and read scores of books and articles about specific camps, stories of survivors, etc. Despite all that info, I still find myself shocked at times by the atrocities that were committed against those in the camps.

 

[PSU73]

Your post is timely for a couple reasons, and seems a bit of fate to me more than coincidence. I'm not a buff but recently my interest has piqued. Several weeks ago I saw part of Alfred Hitchcock's documentary "Night Will Fall" on HBO. It was already in progress so I missed maybe half. I believe it runs in total close to 2 hours. It showed similar footage for the camp they filmed of just what you mentioned. I hope I can catch it again to see it in full.
I've seen images/video before, but never of this much explicit detail.

Secondly, just last week I received from a family member a formal diary and map of my father's service during WWII that was long boxed away. He has a map of France which highlights the routes, places, and the dates of the command posts as his unit travelled across France. The diary is a chronological list of every command post (CP) from August 13, 1944 when they came ashore at Utah Beach (the way having already been cleared of Germans by great sacrifice and bravery of many) until July 14, 1945 when they provided guard duty for POW's in Mons, Belgium.
He was in the 255th Field Artillery Battalion (105mm howitzers), which was attached to the 35th Infantry Division, part of the XII Corps and the Third Army under the command of Patton. I am currently trying to research more about the 255th, and trying to establish when he returned home, though I think it was in December 1945.
Just for giggles, here's a picture of a section of the map which shows their CP's while fighting in/around Nancy, France. This is the most intense movement of his unit's actions, covering September 8 thru December 20. On the 20th they abruptly moved about 140 miles to just NE of Luxembourg City where they took a southern position as part of the Ardennes Counteroffensive, a major turning point in the war and subsequently given a name, that I'm sure you are aware, became more commonly known as the Battle of the Bulge. They then left Luxembourg and snaked through southern Germany and into Austria where they stopped about 3 miles from the Czechoslovakia border, on May 8th. The Russians were just across the border.

My dad never spoke much about the war. It is a treasure of sorts to have gotten hold of his personal diary and the map, and to have a chance to trace his path over the approximate 16 months in Europe.

 

[demlion]

members of the US Army's 45th Infantry Division liberated Dachau, which was the first concentration camp established by the Nazis.

Dachau was established in 1933, just over a month after Hitler took power. During its early years, most of those at Dachau were political opponents of the Nazis. It was not until 1938 that Jews made up the majority of the prisoners at Dachau.

Those imprisoned at Dachau were forced to perform labor. The initial prisoners built the camp. Later prisoners were forced to work in German armaments factories.

Besides being the 1st concentration camp established by the Nazis, Dachau is memorable for several other reasons, including:

- it was the training center for SS concentration camp guards
- it was the model used for most other concentration camps
- it was the first camp where prisoners were used as human guinea pigs in medical experiments

To make things even more confusing, to increase the production of armaments, a number of satellite camps were established in Southern German and Austria in 1944. These camps were all administered by the main camp, and were collectively called Dachau. Today is the anniversary of the liberation of the main camp.

When German forces started losing on all fronts in 1945, the SS transferred prisoners from concentration camps located near the front to Dachau. This caused overcrowding at Dachau, and an outbreak of typhus.

On the evening of April 26th, as Allied forces neared Dachau, about 7,000 Jewish prisoners were forced on a death march from Dachau to Tegernsee, which was about 70 miles away. It was raining heavily during the first day of the march, which was an additional burden to the weakened and emaciated prisoners. Many of the prisoners cast away their jackets, as they became too heavy due to the rain. After a day of marching in the rain, they slept in the woods while it continued to rain. The best research I've read on the March indicates that 987 prisoners died during the death march.

On April 28th, most of the SS guards abandoned Dachau, though a skeleton crew remained there, and actually battled units of the 45th Infantry before they were subdued during the camps liberation.

Outside the camp, the US soldiers found 30 railroad cars filled with dead prisoners in various states of decomposition. Inside the camp, the soldiers found about 30,000 survivors. The troops were so appalled by what they found, that they machine-gunned two or more groups of SS guards that they captured when they liberated the camp.

The Americans were stunned by the repeated claims by the citizens of the town of Dachau that they had no idea what took place at the concentration camp. One consequence of this was that the US authorities forced many of the local citizens to participate in the burial of the approximately 9,000 dead prisoners that were discovered in and around the camp.

Earlier today, some of the liberators, and some of the former prisoners, gathered at Dachau to celebrate the anniversary of the liberation. You can hear an NPR report, which includes interviews with some of the liberators, and I believe 1 former prisoner, that participated in the liberation celebration at THIS LINK.

Between 1933 and 1945, over 160,000 prisoners were detained at some point at the main camp at Dachau, and 90,000 prisoners were detailed at some point at the satellite camps. At least 32,000 prisoners died at Dachau, and an additional number died at other concentration camps after being shipped from Dachau. (For many years, when prisoners at Dachau became too sick or too weak to work in the armament factories, they were shipped to Linz, Austria, where the Nazis had an extermination center.)

Sorry for so many details. I thought those that liberated the camp, and those that were imprisoned in the camp, deserved more than just a paragraph or two.

For those that are WW II buffs, I should also point out that the German Army in Italy unconditionally surrendered to the Allies 70 years ago today.

Tom

Tom, one of the subcamps (name escapes me), probably liberated earlier than the main camp, had a guy in the 4th Infantry whose name we would all recognize on the day it was liberated: JD Salinger. http://www.amazon.com/J-D-Salinger-A-Life/dp/0812982592.


“On April 23, Salinger and his regiment were in Aalen and Ellwangen, villages recognized by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum as having contained a sub-camp of Dachau,” Slawenski wrote in his Salinger biography. “In 1992, the 4th Infantry Division was recognized by the U.S. Army as a liberating unit of Nazi concentration camps, and it is evident that Salinger was called upon to take part in the liberation of victims of the Dachau concentration camp system.”

Like so many who encountered such scenes during the war, Salinger never spoke directly of his experiences, and it is not known for sure exactly what his intelligence duties demanded of him in these places. The sub-camps of Dachau liberated by Salinger’s division were Horgau-Pfersee, Aalen, Ellwagen, Haunstetten, Turkenfald, and Wolfrathausen.”

This quote is not from the book but another source. In the bio of Salinger linked above, much of the madness, reclusiveness and pain he suffered (and inflicted on those around him) during the rest of his life was a result of his war experiences which included the beaches at Normandy, Hurtgen forest, The Hedgerows, and Bulge. He also was carrying with him an early draft of Catcher in the Rye all thru his war experience. Shortly after the war, before he went home, Salinger entered a German Sanitarium after suffering a complete breakdown.

Sorry to hijack, but it is a fascinating story.

 

[Metal Mike]

My father served in WWII and he told us that General Eisenhower ordered all US Soldiers to visit one of the camps so that there would be multiple sources to counter any denials. My father only spoke once about his visit. It was during a movie that showed film from one of the camps. Dad said it was worse than what they showed and the smell was sickening for miles around. German civilians were also forced to tour the camp and in Dad's opinion they had to know what was happening. I visited Dachau once when I was stationed in Germany. It is a a suburb of Munich and we took public transportation. It was extremely depressing.

 

[john4psu]

My dad and his two brothers were forced by the Nazis to dig the mass graves. When I was young, many a night he would wake up screaming during the middle of the night. The sound of that I'll never forget. My dad never wanted to go back to Poland even to visit some of his family that still was there.

 

[Obliviax]

Never forget. Thanks Tom.

My two general take aways as someone who watches and reads everything he can on world war 2.

• I felt the episode "Why We Fight" on Band of Brothers captured the situation pretty well (although the images were watered down). There is pure evil in this world. And sometimes we have to fight. Sometimes, war saves lives; as horrible as that thought is. Pure evil needs to be fought and that is the justification for war. Our generation has not seen war. Our country hasn't seen war with the exception of our internal Civil War. I was in London before the UCF game and watched them putting up poppies; one for each person killed in WW1. Amazing to see. Imagine Beaver Stadium filled to capacity for five strait seasons, over 57 home games, and every single one of those people murdered for their religion/ethnicity. And that's just Germany. Russia was just as bad. Japan in the vicinity.
• How abused people, the Germans after WW1, could be manipulated by emotion, dictatorship, controlled press, revenge, economic advance, etc. It is amazing how the German people followed this lunatic and his regime at any and all costs right to the very end. A cautionary tale for us all.

 

[PSU Mike]

I'm poorly versed in history, and rarely choose to read much on it, but I really am enjoying this thread (or should I say topic). I'd love to read more posts here ...

 

[SCBlueFan]

I visited Dachau with my wife about 25 years ago. Took the tour through the ovens and gas chambers. Saw the life sized photos on the walls of what the Allies found when they liberated the camp. It was brutal emotionally. The one redeeming thing was seeing the classes of German youths sitting there being shown what happened, so that it never happens again.

 

[Ranger Dan]

I visited Dachau while working in Germany last year. It was very sobering. I didn't want to tell the German coworkers that I was visiting the camp, because I didn't want to make them feel uncomfortable. On a different occasion, the subject did come up and they did not deny anything, but said it was like slavery in America.

 

[Obliviax]

I visited Dachau while working in Germany last year. It was very sobering. I didn't want to tell the German coworkers that I was visiting the camp, because I didn't want to make them feel uncomfortable. On a different occasion, the subject did come up and they did not deny anything, but said it was like slavery in America.

I don't buy the "slavery" angle. You can't understand WW2 until you understand WW1. WW1 was a different era in that much of the war was fought by and for royalty; the Czars in Russian and Germany. Both families were ousted during or at the conclusion of WW1. But the experience of German soldiers in the trenches in WW1, the gas attacks, the utter disposal of millions of lives created the vacuum that Hitler exploited on his rise and consolidation of power. As you probably know, Hitler was a currier (one of the worst positions) in WW1 who was hospitalized for gas attacks. In fact, he was caught in an open field by a British soldier who should have shot him but let him go (what a turn of world events that moment was). Also, at one point, all the major players in WW2 were within 200km of each other in WW1 (Hitler, Churchill, Eisenhower, DeGaul, Patton and more).

I don't know if all Germans knew of the camps and what was going on. But they certainly understood the harshness of the regime. They saw people "disappear" and they had to know these people's lives were ending, in some way for fashion. They went along for personal gain or, perhaps, were powerless to speak out against it. Funny how, after the war, there were no Nazis but people fighting for their culture and fatherland. Germans fought the allies tooth and nail to the very, bitter end. Most were as convicted in the war as the Japanese.

 

[kgilbert78]

I visited Dachau with my wife about 25 years ago. Took the tour through the ovens and gas chambers. Saw the life sized photos on the walls of what the Allies found when they liberated the camp. It was brutal emotionally. The one redeeming thing was seeing the classes of German youths sitting there being shown what happened, so that it never happens again.

If you took a tour that showed gas chambers, you were in the wrong place. Dachau, horrific as it was, was not an extermination camp. The Germans tended to keep those outside of the borders of "Greater Germany". There was a small crematorium--not surprising, as the Germans worked people to death and executed them on a whim. But the mass murder was committed elsewhere. Still horrific, of course.

I've been to Dachau, in 1978, as part of the tour I did of Germany after my exchange program (thru PSU) at the University of Cologne ended. very emotional. I did not want to speak German the rest of the day and well into the next. I have also been to Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, which I would also recommend. Oddly enough, my fluency in German was useful there, as I could read a lot of the stuff (signs and posters, etc.) displayed that were not always well described by the captions on the exhibits.

I'd also recommend the NS Dokumentationzentrum in Cologne. Wasn't there when I went to school there (as it opened in 1988), but we stopped in 2013. It's in the old Gestapo HQ in Cologne, and is noted for preservation of the prisoner's cells with graffitti (explained in English). The main hall on the 2nd floor does not have English translations at this time. It shows Cologne during Nazi rule. Lots of posters and artifacts. An English audio guide is available. We've also been to Bergen-Belsen near Celle, where there is a cenotaph for Anne Frank and her sister.

 

[SCBlueFan]

If you took a tour that showed gas chambers, you were in the wrong place. Dachau, horrific as it was, was not an extermination camp. T


It was Dachau to be sure. Like I said it was 25 years ago, but I am certain we walked through "showers" that we were told were used to gas prisoners. The ovens/crematorium I remember vividly.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

members of the US Army's 45th Infantry Division liberated Dachau, which was the first concentration camp established by the Nazis.

Dachau was established in 1933, just over a month after Hitler took power. During its early years, most of those at Dachau were political opponents of the Nazis. It was not until 1938 that Jews made up the majority of the prisoners at Dachau.

Those imprisoned at Dachau were forced to perform labor. The initial prisoners built the camp. Later prisoners were forced to work in German armaments factories.

Besides being the 1st concentration camp established by the Nazis, Dachau is memorable for several other reasons, including:

- it was the training center for SS concentration camp guards
- it was the model used for most other concentration camps
- it was the first camp where prisoners were used as human guinea pigs in medical experiments

To make things even more confusing, to increase the production of armaments, a number of satellite camps were established in Southern German and Austria in 1944. These camps were all administered by the main camp, and were collectively called Dachau. Today is the anniversary of the liberation of the main camp.

When German forces started losing on all fronts in 1945, the SS transferred prisoners from concentration camps located near the front to Dachau. This caused overcrowding at Dachau, and an outbreak of typhus.

On the evening of April 26th, as Allied forces neared Dachau, about 7,000 Jewish prisoners were forced on a death march from Dachau to Tegernsee, which was about 70 miles away. It was raining heavily during the first day of the march, which was an additional burden to the weakened and emaciated prisoners. Many of the prisoners cast away their jackets, as they became too heavy due to the rain. After a day of marching in the rain, they slept in the woods while it continued to rain. The best research I've read on the March indicates that 987 prisoners died during the death march.

On April 28th, most of the SS guards abandoned Dachau, though a skeleton crew remained there, and actually battled units of the 45th Infantry before they were subdued during the camps liberation.

Outside the camp, the US soldiers found 30 railroad cars filled with dead prisoners in various states of decomposition. Inside the camp, the soldiers found about 30,000 survivors. The troops were so appalled by what they found, that they machine-gunned two or more groups of SS guards that they captured when they liberated the camp.

The Americans were stunned by the repeated claims by the citizens of the town of Dachau that they had no idea what took place at the concentration camp. One consequence of this was that the US authorities forced many of the local citizens to participate in the burial of the approximately 9,000 dead prisoners that were discovered in and around the camp.

Earlier today, some of the liberators, and some of the former prisoners, gathered at Dachau to celebrate the anniversary of the liberation. You can hear an NPR report, which includes interviews with some of the liberators, and I believe 1 former prisoner, that participated in the liberation celebration at THIS LINK.

Between 1933 and 1945, over 160,000 prisoners were detained at some point at the main camp at Dachau, and 90,000 prisoners were detained at some point at the satellite camps. At least 32,000 prisoners died at Dachau, and an additional number died at other concentration camps after being shipped from Dachau. (For many years, when prisoners at Dachau became too sick or too weak to work in the armament factories, they were shipped to Linz, Austria, where the Nazis had an extermination center.)

Sorry for so many details. I thought those that liberated the camp, and those that were imprisoned in the camp, deserved more than just a paragraph or two.

For those that are WW II buffs, I should also point out that the German Army in Italy unconditionally surrendered to the Allies 70 years ago today.

Tom

Thank God (and Ike) this stuff was heavily documented. Even so you still get crazies and anti-Semites who say the Holocaust was overblown or a myth.

 

[kgilbert78]

t was Dachau to be sure. Like I said it was 25 years ago, but I am certain we walked through "showers" that we were told were used to gas prisoners. The ovens/crematorium I remember vividly.

Yes, I saw the crematorium too--and have a photo. But most experts (and I do not include holocaust deniers as "experts") agree that whatever the "gas chamber" was, it was not used for mass executions (it may have been a test bed for it--and that is under dispute). I did not see it in 1978, for example. Personally, my best guess is that folks *wanted* to see one (as Dachau was and remains one of the most accessible Holocaust sites--as most of the other sites were behind the Iron Curtain) and so one was "discovered". The conditions were so deplorable in the camp that there was a large delousing facility for clothing--which would have used the same chemicals. Most of the concentration camp sites were torched after the war, for health reasons if nothing else. If you go to Bergen-Belsen, there's not much there--except mass graves by the score. Some archeological work has been done--and there are memorials and a visitors center. Dachau has reconstructed sites. As I recall, all of the original barracks, for example, are gone. The Nazis tended to do their mass murder outside of Germany proper (perhaps for denyibility).

 

[Michael.Felli]

Yes, Tom. 70 years ago, today. Not, 7000 years ago, today. But SEVENTY years ago, today. One would think these atrocities would only be done by humans 1000's and 1000's and 1000's of years ago. But, it was ONLY 70 years ago. Give that some thought.

Rabbis have asked, why didn't the sky darken over the concentration camps. They didn't. Only sky above the concentration camps. No miracles.

Who liberated those camps? Humans, that's who! Humans - many of which gave their lives - fighting and killing other fellow humans to bring an end to that war. Yet, here we are SEVENTY years later. Where is peace?

 

[Art]

Yes, I saw the crematorium too--and have a photo. But most experts (and I do not include holocaust deniers as "experts") agree that whatever the "gas chamber" was, it was not used for mass executions (it may have been a test bed for it--and that is under dispute). I did not see it in 1978, for example. Personally, my best guess is that folks *wanted* to see one (as Dachau was and remains one of the most accessible Holocaust sites--as most of the other sites were behind the Iron Curtain) and so one was "discovered". The conditions were so deplorable in the camp that there was a large delousing facility for clothing--which would have used the same chemicals. Most of the concentration camp sites were torched after the war, for health reasons if nothing else. If you go to Bergen-Belsen, there's not much there--except mass graves by the score. Some archeological work has been done--and there are memorials and a visitors center. Dachau has reconstructed sites. As I recall, all of the original barracks, for example, are gone. The Nazis tended to do their mass murder outside of Germany proper (perhaps for denyibility).

There is a gas chamber in Baracke X, one of the last built structures at Dachau. But you are correct that there is no definitive evidence that it was used.

 

[ApexLion]

Excellent thread and this is why the Tom McA board is the best.

Obli mentioned the 'Why We Fight' Band of Brothers episode earlier. This part of the episode always stuck with me. (linked). IMHO its unbelievably powerful and yet unspoken -- no words suffice. Just anger, confusion, sadness. Indescribable really.

After being a GA in Spielvogel's History of Nazism course at Penn State more than 25 years ago, I still cannot answer the question often posed by undergrads or even my own children: "How did business people, towns people, average peope and civic leaders, clergy and anyone not in the military tolerate concentration camps in their backyards?" How did they allow it to happen? I know the pat answers -- militarism borne of WWI, centuries of pogroms and anti-Semitic behavior, Germany's humiliation the aftermath of WWI, Hitler's sheer charisma if you can call it that -- but I still think about how the average person could look the other way and not band together to resist or subvert the camp system in some way. Perhaps, I'm unable put myself in their shoes and my American bias is in the way? Looking at the documentary evidence makes you wonder about the Germanic mindset and human nature in general.

 

[bmusser24]

I believe today is the anniversary of Hitler committing suicide also.

 

[NitNE73]

My uncle was an MP and went into Dachau during its liberation. He never said anything to his nieces or nephews about it until one night about 25 years ago when he and I sipped bourbon late into the night. He started talking about how he was pulled out of the water by the Vichy French forces at Casablanca and was hospitalized with a broken jaw in Casablanca when it was captured by the Americans a few days later. Then he told me about Dachau.

He was also a photographer all his life and stunned me when he pulled out a box of color slides that he had taken at Dachau. It was frightening, stunning and horrific. I had heard stories from my mother, but one never knows whether to believe a story or not. Having seen the utter brutality of it, I sat in stunned silence as he talked about the camp. It affected him in unkown ways for the rest of his life.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

I believe today is the anniversary of Hitler committing suicide also.

That occurred on April 30, 1945, and thus 70 years ago today. The liberation of Dachau occurred on April 29, 1945, and thus 70 years from when I made the OP.

Sticking to April 30th, some other fascinating things happened on this date:

1789 - the 1st Presidential inauguration in the history of the United States took place, and George Washington took the oath of office as the 1st US President. This took place in New York City, which served as the 1st capital of the United States. He took a barge that was specially built and decorated for the event across the Hudson River, and then was sworn in on a balcony of Federal Hall. He repeated the words prompted to him by Chancellor Robert Livingston (no Supreme Court justices had been appointed at that time). After the swearing in, he retreated from the balcony and read his inauguration address to Congress. Later, he and a number of legislators walked up Broadway and prayed at St. Paul's Chapel.

1803 - representatives of the US and France concluded negotiations for what became known as the Louisiana Purchase. It basically doubled the size of the United States, and gave the US ownership of all lands between the Mississippi and the Rockies, excluding Texas and parts of New Mexico. (Though the Comanche and other tribes, who had lived on that land for centuries and considered it theirs, where not consulted, and fought bitterly for decades to retain their land.) The US negotiators agreed to pay $11,250,000 and also assured claims of its citizens against France that totaled $3,750,000. As a result of the purchase, the US acquired 828,000 square miles of land for the price of less than 3 cents an acre.

1975 - South Vietnam surrenders to North Vietnam

 

[kgilbert78]

My uncle was an MP and went into Dachau during its liberation. He never said anything to his nieces or nephews about it until one night about 25 years ago when he and I sipped bourbon late into the night. He started talking about how he was pulled out of the water by the Vichy French forces at Casablanca and was hospitalized with a broken jaw in Casablanca when it was captured by the Americans a few days later. Then he told me about Dachau.

He was also a photographer all his life and stunned me when he pulled out a box of color slides that he had taken at Dachau. It was frightening, stunning and horrific. I had heard stories from my mother, but one never knows whether to believe a story or not. Having seen the utter brutality of it, I sat in stunned silence as he talked about the camp. It affected him in unkown ways for the rest of his life.

I hope those slides were preserved. We must remember the past.

 

[kgilbert78]

Excellent thread and this is why the Tom McA board is the best.

Obli mentioned the 'Why We Fight' Band of Brothers episode earlier. This part of the episode always stuck with me. (linked). IMHO its unbelievably powerful and yet unspoken -- no words suffice. Just anger, confusion, sadness. Indescribable really.

After being a GA in Spielvogel's History of Nazism course at Penn State more than 25 years ago, I still cannot answer the question often posed by undergrads or even my own children: "How did business people, towns people, average peope and civic leaders, clergy and anyone not in the military tolerate concentration camps in their backyards?" How did they allow it to happen? I know the pat answers -- militarism borne of WWI, centuries of pogroms and anti-Semitic behavior, Germany's humiliation the aftermath of WWI, Hitler's sheer charisma if you can call it that -- but I still think about how the average person could look the other way and not band together to resist or subvert the camp system in some way. Perhaps, I'm unable put myself in their shoes and my American bias is in the way? Looking at the documentary evidence makes you wonder about the Germanic mindset and human nature in general.

View embedded media

If it''s a "Germanic mindset", then we are closer to catching that bug than much of the rest of the world as the US as about 40% of Americans have some German descent. I find that a convenient excuse--especially given Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, and Pol Pot's Cambodia, just to name a few. Or the Armenian genocide from WW I.

But there were Germans that resisted. Bonhoeffer is one. The Scholl's another. But the question still remains. How did this happen? That's the challenge.

 

[psuted]

My Father was there and I have photographs of the camp after it was liberated. It's unbelievable to see just how cruel the Nazis were.

Tom, I can tell you that after my Father witnessed those horrors he never liked seeing anyone wearing a striped shirt because he said it reminded him of the uniform material worn be the prisioners in that camp. Also, he would never sell and he was very sensitive about who or how the photograps he took were viewed others. Depending on how those photograps were being used or viewed, he always said he felt like it was "pissing on someones grave" and treated them with deep reverence. When I get more time I'll share some stories he told me.

 

[SUPERTODD]

If it''s a "Germanic mindset", then we are closer to catching that bug than much of the rest of the world as the US as about 40% of Americans have some German descent. I find that a convenient excuse--especially given Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, and Pol Pot's Cambodia, just to name a few. Or the Armenian genocide from WW I.

But there were Germans that resisted. Bonhoeffer is one. The Scholl's another. But the question still remains. How did this happen? That's the challenge.

Thought that was interesting as well. We try to pretend the Germans were some special case where a whole people turned evil. The whole notion that we will "never forget" makes me sad. We HAVE forgotten. Synagogues are burning in France as I type this. Christians and Yazidis are being raped, slaughtered and sold into slavery by Hitler's modern incarnation all throughout the Middle East. And we have done nothing. In many cases we have sided with evil against the innocent. It's unconscionable.