1st round byes

[PSUranger]

What are your opinions/ideas regarding 1st round byes? I find it hard to believe that the 6 PSU guys that had byes would not have gotten more than the 1.5 points the team lost by. (Of course Michigan had their byes too)

I'm not smart enough to know the answer but it seems like there is a more fair way than penalizing a team for having 6 guys ranked 1 or 2.

 

[nitlion6]

If the second seeded 125 pounder wins a match or two it isn't an issue.
If the 149 pounder takes an offensive shot he maybe finishes top 6 and it isn't an issue.
If the 157 pounder takes an offensive shot in semis it maybe isn't an issue.
If the 184 national champ doesn't lose a lead in the final 20 seconds it isn't an issue.
If the heavyweight doesn't lose a semi-final lead with 1 second left on the clock it doesn't matter.

14 member schools. Either all 14 are seeded and the top two get byes or seed the top 8 and randomize the byes which complicates how to determine the numbers 9 thru 12 or more allocations.

 

[Cowbell Man]

If the second seeded 125 pounder wins a match or two it isn't an issue.
If the 149 pounder takes an offensive shot he maybe finishes top 6 and it isn't an issue.
If the 157 pounder takes an offensive shot in semis it maybe isn't an issue.
If the 184 national champ doesn't lose a lead in the final 20 seconds it isn't an issue.
If the heavyweight doesn't lose a semi-final lead with 1 second left on the clock it doesn't matter.

14 member schools. Either all 14 are seeded and the top two get byes or seed the top 8 and randomize the byes which complicates how to determine the numbers 9 thru 12 or more allocations.

Your statements are correct. But so is the OP. The fact remains that the 1 and 2 seeds are simply afforded 1 point and have no opportunity at 3. MFF’s from the other thread consider the exact same situation and award 3.

At least the old system of awarding bonus point earned in the subsequent round made a little sense.
So while all wrestlers on the team of ten could have found a way to get 2 more total points….we were missing 12 while Michigan was missing 4.

I see no difference in a bye, MFF or default. The bonus opportunity lost is the same.

 

[nitlion6]

Your statements are correct. But so is the OP. The fact remains that the 1 and 2 seeds are simply afforded 1 point and have no opportunity at 3. MFF’s from the other thread consider the exact same situation and award 3.

At least the old system of awarding bonus point earned in the subsequent round made a little sense.
So while all wrestlers on the team of ten could have found a way to get 2 more total points….we were missing 12 while Michigan was missing 4.

I see no difference in a bye, MFF or default. The bonus opportunity lost is the same.

It isn't the same. The pre tournament bye isn't something that can be manipulated, while the in tournament MFFs have manipulation potential.
We weren't missing 12 bonus points, the team missed out on the opportunity to score 12. Michigan missed out on the opportunity to score 6 and Iowa 8.

 

[Kale_yeah]

What are your opinions/ideas regarding 1st round byes? I find it hard to believe that the 6 PSU guys that had byes would not have gotten more than the 1.5 points the team lost by. (Of course Michigan had their byes too)

I'm not smart enough to know the answer but it seems like there is a more fair way than penalizing a team for having 6 guys ranked 1 or 2.

Number 1 seed gets the choice and move to # 2 seed and so on until 2 byes are awarded.

 

[RoarLions1]

It isn't the same. The pre tournament bye isn't something that can be manipulated, while the in tournament MFFs have manipulation potential.
We weren't missing 12 bonus points, the team missed out on the opportunity to score 12. Michigan missed out on the opportunity to score 6 and Iowa 8.

Iowa - 10. Doesn’t change the thought.

 

[Cowbell Man]

Iowa - 10. Doesn’t change the thought.

Interesting, so because there can be in-tourney manipulation, the penalty is awarding 2 bonus point and advancement to the “winner”.

But because a wrestler went undefeated and sadly there aren’t enough people to satisfy a whole bracket, the reward for a season of work is to not be allowed to get bonus points. Who is the winner there?

I just don’t see them as different. At least not yet. Help me out.

Nick Lee was awarded 2 bonus points. Why….as it relates to possible manipulation?

Micic was given two bonus points in a placing match. How does that penalize manipulation?

I’m not even saying who gets the bye in a fully seeded 14 man tourney should be changed. It can’t be with allocations on the line. I’m not even sure I liked the bonus tied to the following match, but it seems better than zero bonus in a bye when other uncontested means…and even a injury default get full bonus.

 

[ss7]

Interesting, so because there can be in-tourney manipulation, the penalty is awarding 2 bonus point and advancement to the “winner”.

But because a wrestler went undefeated and sadly there aren’t enough people to satisfy a whole bracket, the reward for a season of work is to not be allowed to get bonus points. Who is the winner there?

I just don’t see them as different. At least not yet. Help me out.

Nick Lee was awarded 2 bonus points. Why….as it relates to possible manipulation?

Micic was given two bonus points in a placing match. How does that penalize manipulation?

I’m not even saying who gets the bye in a fully seeded 14 man tourney should be changed. It can’t be with allocations on the line. I’m not even sure I liked the bonus tied to the following match, but it seems better than zero bonus in a bye when other uncontested means…and even a injury default get full bonus.

I think a good example of what's being avoided is a forfeit in yesterday's Kerk v Parris match.

Without the bonus point penalty, Parris could have forfeited to Kerk and guaranteed the team title. But with the bonus point penalty, Parris had to at least take the mat and not get pinned.

To be clear...I don't think there was any consideration in this particular instance. But this same situation could happen in a match for 7th place, and then maybe a coach makes a different decision to forfeit or not.

 

[RoarLions1]

I personally wouldn’t change a thing about brackets and scoring. The top teams at Big Tens get between 30 & 40 bouts. Playing “what if” is a futile exercise with all the possible permutations. Michigan had to jump two teams to win (using seeding to predict the finish), hat’s off to them…on to Detroit.

 

[nitlion6]

Interesting, so because there can be in-tourney manipulation, the penalty is awarding 2 bonus point and advancement to the “winner”.

But because a wrestler went undefeated and sadly there aren’t enough people to satisfy a whole bracket, the reward for a season of work is to not be allowed to get bonus points. Who is the winner there?

I just don’t see them as different. At least not yet. Help me out.

Nick Lee was awarded 2 bonus points. Why….as it relates to possible manipulation?

Micic was given two bonus points in a placing match. How does that penalize manipulation?

I’m not even saying who gets the bye in a fully seeded 14 man tourney should be changed. It can’t be with allocations on the line. I’m not even sure I liked the bonus tied to the following match, but it seems better than zero bonus in a bye when other uncontested means…and even a injury default get full bonus.

Nick Lee was awarded 2 points because there was a scheduled opponent that did not take the mat.
Nick Lee and the other 5 Lions got nothing other than an advancement point that was not earned until a post second round victory was earned because there was no scheduled opponent.

 

[86PSUPaul]

I would be interested in seeing how many bonus points Michigan got from first round matchups versus how many we got, and how many wrestlers scored those bomus points.

Interested but not interested enough to look myself…..

 

[Ian]

How much did Michigan get for those first round bouts?
How many MF did they both get?
How many total bonus did they receive.

We're splitting hairs. It was a perfect storm for scUM to win B1Gs. Kudo's for them and for performing. I doubt they catch lightening twice in two weeks. They got 6 grey beards. Lets see what shape they are in come Detroit. Iowa grey beards are pretty beat up.

 

[nitlion6]

Michigan got a 1.5 from Paris getting a tech fall
PSU got 3, Kerk fall and Berge MD
Iowa got 4, Murin and Warner had MDs, Kem a fall

 

[Cowbell Man]

How much did Michigan get for those first round bouts?
How many MF did they both get?
How many total bonus did they receive.

We're splitting hairs. It was a perfect storm for scUM to win B1Gs. Kudo's for them and for performing. I doubt they catch lightening twice in two weeks. They got 6 grey beards. Lets see what shape they are in come Detroit. Iowa grey beards are pretty beat up.

My question is unrelated to whether we win or lost. I’m trying to understand, despite years of wrestling and coaching, how a bye is any more or less valuable than a MFF, regular forfeit or injury default for that matter.

 

[HOCKEYGOD11]

The dilution at nationals will hit their team much more so than ours... Guys like Micic, Lewan, little Amine.. they are not finishing near as high as our studs.. and not where near as high as they did this weekend..

 

[HOCKEYGOD11]

Buy should really result in placement and 2 bonus IMO.. this rewards someone for being the 1/2 seed and acknowledges that they likely would bonus any competition that is bottom seen in the tourney..

 

[TexasLion1979]

No hairs being split here but advancement is advancement and should be rewarded. The 1 & 2 seeds should get points for advancing. Basically a regular decision. Not a MFF which is treated like a pin.

 

[Cowbell Man]

Nick Lee was awarded 2 points because there was a scheduled opponent that did not take the mat.
Nick Lee and the other 5 Lions got nothing other than an advancement point that was not earned until a post second round victory was earned because there was no scheduled opponent.

Your point was that manipulation is the cause of awarding 2 bonus points and that a pre-planned bye could not be manipulated, so no points.
I suggest that byes, then, do not reward a wrestler for earning a bye.
It’s not like it’s a new topic, I just fail to grasp how “a wrestler presented to you” that doesn’t actually take a mat is any different than a bye that doesn’t take a mat.
And then, heaven forbid a wrestler like Jason Nolf can’t continue a match awards the other team full bonus. How did the winner earn those points??

 

[Cowbell Man]

The dilution at nationals will hit their team much more so than ours... Guys like Micic, Lewan, little Amine.. they are not finishing near as high as our studs.. and not where near as high as they did this weekend..

Much. Much more.

 

[Cowbell Man]

I think a good example of what's being avoided is a forfeit in yesterday's Kerk v Parris match.

Without the bonus point penalty, Parris could have forfeited to Kerk and guaranteed the team title. But with the bonus point penalty, Parris had to at least take the mat and not get pinned.

To be clear...I don't think there was any consideration in this particular instance. But this same situation could happen in a match for 7th place, and then maybe a coach makes a different decision to forfeit or not.

That situation would occur if it was only advancement points and they we leading by .5. That’s not really an example of manipulation.

I just am trying to grasp why the wrestler who was good enough to earn a bye, is penalized.

It has never made sense to me.

 

[ss7]

That situation would occur if it was only advancement points and they we leading by .5. That’s not really an example of manipulation.

I just am trying to grasp why the wrestler who was good enough to earn a bye, is penalized.

It has never made sense to me.

Maybe "manipulation" isn't the right word then. Maybe "gamesmanship" or even "shenanigans".

I am guessing some would say that the "award" of one less match offsets the "penalty" of one less opportunity for bonus points. TBH, I can see an argument for both sides. I think my favorite solution would be to give the top seeds a choice to wrestle or get a bye (with no bonus points) until 2 wrestlers take the bye, as was suggested on this thread earlier.

 

[APSPSUwrestlingfan]

Not every first round match between a 1 or 2 seed and a bottom seed results in a pin. Some even result in an upset. One simple "fix" would to be award and automatic 1 point bonus for the equivalent of a major decision. There is nothing to go back and recalculate and everyone knows the team scores with certainty.

A study could be done of several years of NCAA championships to determine the actual average bonus scored in every 1 and 2 match and also how many upsets occur. Keep the final bonus simple, even if it comes out .5.

 

[nitlion6]

Your point was that manipulation is the cause of awarding 2 bonus points and that a pre-planned bye could not be manipulated, so no points.
I suggest that byes, then, do not reward a wrestler for earning a bye.
It’s not like it’s a new topic, I just fail to grasp how “a wrestler presented to you” that doesn’t actually take a mat is any different than a bye that doesn’t take a mat.
And then, heaven forbid a wrestler like Jason Nolf can’t continue a match awards the other team full bonus. How did the winner earn those points??

I need to ask, was this a huge issue on Friday night?

 

[nitlion6]

Your point was that manipulation is the cause of awarding 2 bonus points and that a pre-planned bye could not be manipulated, so no points.
I suggest that byes, then, do not reward a wrestler for earning a bye.
It’s not like it’s a new topic, I just fail to grasp how “a wrestler presented to you” that doesn’t actually take a mat is any different than a bye that doesn’t take a mat.
And then, heaven forbid a wrestler like Jason Nolf can’t continue a match awards the other team full bonus. How did the winner earn those points??

Back in the day when Iowa and Minnesota had more 1 and 2 seeds than other programs, if they were given 2 bonus points for first round byes this place would endlessly whine about how unfair it is too give those two favorites a 10 point jump on everybody else.

If we had scored 2 additional points the passion this board is today feeling about "byes" and bonus point scoring would be significantly lower.

 

[dsites52]

Nick Lee or CtarSuperstar have a chance to wrestle a kid from Indiana or Maryland on Saturday morning and they deck em. But I’m with Cowbell here, why do MFFs deserve bonus when byes don’t? Hell, wouldn’t it incentivize guys to get 1 and 2 seeds?

 

[rmg78]

I need to ask, was this a huge issue on Friday night?

What are your opinions/ideas regarding 1st round byes? I find it hard to believe that the 6 PSU guys that had byes would not have gotten more than the 1.5 points the team lost by. (Of course Michigan had their byes too)

I'm not smart enough to know the answer but it seems like there is a more fair way than penalizing a team for having 6 guys ranked 1 or 2.

Well, PSU had 4 first round matches and scored 3 bonus points (Kerk pin and Berge MD) while Michigan had I think 7 first round matches and earned 1.5 points bonus points of of Paris TF. This year, the point is mute.

 

[johnstownsteel]

My question is unrelated to whether we win or lost. I’m trying to understand, despite years of wrestling and coaching, how a bye is any more or less valuable than a MFF, regular forfeit or injury default for that matter.

Buy should really result in placement and 2 bonus IMO.. this rewards someone for being the 1/2 seed and acknowledges that they likely would bonus any competition that is bottom seen in the tourney..

I thought those getting byes should get to earn bonus for the bye in subsequent matches but you two have changed my mind.

 

[Cowbell Man]

I thought those getting byes should get to earn bonus for the bye in subsequent matches but you two have changed my

Back in the day when Iowa and Minnesota had more 1 and 2 seeds than other programs, if they were given 2 bonus points for first round byes this place would endlessly whine about how unfair it is too give those two favorites a 10 point jump on everybody else.

If we had scored 2 additional points the passion this board is today feeling about "byes" and bonus point scoring would be significantly lower.

Sure. Most might ignore the conversation. But I’m not talking about this tournament. It was a great tournament and the closeness of the score was epic fun. Lots of things contributed to the lack of 2 more points. No problem.

But let’s examine the “person presented to you” angle. Your point is there was no one to wrestle in the case of the 1 or 2 seed, so it shouldn’t get a bonus.

In every case that Cael forfeited a match in Rec Hall, he literally had no one to present. Yet the other team got full bonus.

Different how?

 

[brodust]

If #1 & 2 seeds are deserving of those spots they should wrestle the 14th & 13th seeds in the first round. 3 & 4 should get 12th & 11th remaining 8 should be pulled from a hat or go by record and give two buys!

 

[brodust]

Remaining 10

 

[GogglesPaizano]

I say both MFFs and BYEs should receive the same reward equivalent to a "major" at the level in the bracket where it is earned.

Awarding no bonus points to the lowest level of competition for a 1st round bye is wrong, and awarding the equivalent of a fall bonus points for a forfeit is also wrong.

Not perfect but a LOT better than the current model.

 

[APSPSUwrestlingfan]

I say both MFFs and BYEs should receive the same reward equivalent to a "major" at the level in the bracket where it is earned.

Awarding no bonus points to the lowest level of competition for a 1st round bye is wrong, and awarding the equivalent of a fall bonus points for a forfeit is also wrong.

Not perfect but a LOT better than the current model.

I came to a very similar conclusion in post 22.

 

[lions#1]

The #1 & #2 seeds are being rewarded for their accomplishments in the regular season. They only have to wrestle and win 2 matches to reach the finals versus all the other guys need to wrestle 3 on Saturday. That eliminates a max of up to 7 min of additional wear and tear and maybe injury exposure they would face with an opening round match. I got to believe the top seeds are just fine with getting a first round bye. The better wrestler’s are better wrestlers and they are fresher to start the second round. That is probably why most of the finals were 1 vs 2.

You want a better chance for higher seeds reaching the finals then try eliminating the byes and see what happens (maybe this has been done previously?)

 

[nitlion6]

Sure. Most might ignore the conversation. But I’m not talking about this tournament. It was a great tournament and the closeness of the score was epic fun. Lots of things contributed to the lack of 2 more points. No problem.

But let’s examine the “person presented to you” angle. Your point is there was no one to wrestle in the case of the 1 or 2 seed, so it shouldn’t get a bonus.

In every case that Cael forfeited a match in Rec Hall, he literally had no one to present. Yet the other team got full bonus.

Different how?

Different in PSU has an obligation in the dual to present 10 wrestlers at 10 specific weight classes. If no one is present to complete the opponent by presenting an athlete to compete earns the maximum team points that can be earned.

Using the Big10 as an example, who failed to present a competitor for the first two seeds, anybody? Nope.

There is a difference.

I ask earlier. Was this huge issue Friday night?

 

[nitlion6]

If #1 & 2 seeds are deserving of those spots they should wrestle the 14th & 13th seeds in the first round. 3 & 4 should get 12th & 11th remaining 8 should be pulled from a hat or go by record and give two buys!

Sounds great, right up until number 14 beats number one seed and it is one of ours.
Then the board is in meltdown mode over why the hell does the first seed have to wrestle somebody when there are two byes.

The only reason this is an issue right now is because the Lions finished second by 1.5 points.

 

[Cowbell Man]

Different in PSU has an obligation in the dual to present 10 wrestlers at 10 specific weight classes. If no one is present to complete the opponent by presenting an athlete to compete earns the maximum team points that can be earned.

Using the Big10 as an example, who failed to present a competitor for the first two seeds, anybody? Nope.

There is a difference.

I ask earlier. Was this huge issue Friday night?

Lol. The answer to your first question is…..”No one”.

And according to you. “If no one is present to complete the opponent by presenting an athlete to compete earns the maximum team points that can be earned.”

pretty much the same.

The second question about when it was a problem. Jeez Nit, I’m not needling because of this tourney. You know this question comes up every single year at Big Ten time. Every year. This isn’t a new question from me. I’ve never heard an explanation that makes any sense of why the most accomplished wrestlers in the class are awarded and penalized at the same time.

 

[nitlion6]

Lol. The answer to your first question is…..”No one”.

And according to you. “If no one is present to complete the opponent by presenting an athlete to compete earns the maximum team points that can be earned.”

pretty much the same.

The second question about when it was a problem. Jeez Nit, I’m not needling because of this tourney. You know this question comes up every single year at Big Ten time. Every year. This isn’t a new question from me. I’ve never heard an explanation that makes any sense of why the most accomplished wrestlers in the class are awarded and penalized at the same time.

You ask me what the difference is. I answered the question. In a dual each team is responsible for presenting a competitor. In failing to meet that obligation team points are forfeited. In a tournament situation, a team is to present competitors and the failure to do so results in team points being forfeited to the team who presents their competitor. The same as a dual.

In a bye situation there is nobody failing to present a competitor.

That is the difference. You may not like the answer. As far as corrections, any correction has side effects that would present similar bytching.

You may growl about this issue every year, but it wasn't anybody's Friday night issue. Since yesterday, byes and MFF have taken on a life of their own. It is my belief had we won the title byes might be a small conversation and MFF would be a make fun of Brands' toughness.

 

[Ski]

My unorthodox solution - instead of giving #1 and #2 byes, give them instead to #13 and #14. Brackets are aligned, so 1 and 2 wrestle 12 and 11 in the first round and the winners of those matches wrestle 14 and 13 in the second round.