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125 at B1G's

RoarLions1

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May 11, 2012
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I was looking at 125 results within the Big Ten, with the goal of seeing how Hildebrandt could fare seeding-wise, based on how he performs this coming weekend. The B1G is loaded at the top. In the Flo rankings, the conference has the #1 (Suriano), 5 (Eric Barnett), 6 (Patrick McKee), 7 (Drew Hildebrandt), 8 (Drake Ayala), 9 (Mike DeAugustino), 11 (Malik Heinselman), and 14 (Devon Schroder) wrestlers. That's 8 of the top-14!!

Suriano will surely be #1, but after that it's wide open for 2 through 5. This weekend will settle some of it, but the guys in this range have been beating up on each other, so right now it's too early to tell.
Barnett beat Schroder and McKee.
DeAugustino beat McKee and Barnett.
Ayala beat DeAugustino and Schroder.
McKee beat Ayala (3x).
Heinselman beat Ayala.

Hildebrandt has actually missed most of the top talent this season, but gets Heinselman Friday night. Barnett (1 loss) and DeAugustino (1 loss) actually have a better resume, so right now they are in front of Hildebrandt imo. Schroeder has no great wins, and two not-so-bad losses, so at 4-2 he's in the mix too. McKee, even at 2-3 looks competive with this group, but at 2-3 the record is a killer.

Other than Hildebrandt v Heinselman Friday, the only bouts I see that look competitive and will affect seeds in a big way for the remainder of the season are Heinselman vs McKee, and DeAugustino vs Schroder.

Even with a win Friday and a win Sunday, Hildebrandt may end up on the same side as Suriano. He'll need help to get 2 or 3. That said, I'll take a semi against Suriano.
 
Just get Hildebrandt into the NCAAs and let him do his best. 125 is a lot more wide open with Lee out, although Suriano is clearly the favorite. The B1G champ along with Vito and Glory should be the top 3 seeds, so 2nd in the B1G is likely on Suriano's side in NCAAs anyway.
 
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I was looking at 125 results within the Big Ten, with the goal of seeing how Hildebrandt could fare seeding-wise, based on how he performs this coming weekend. The B1G is loaded at the top. In the Flo rankings, the conference has the #1 (Suriano), 5 (Eric Barnett), 6 (Patrick McKee), 7 (Drew Hildebrandt), 8 (Drake Ayala), 9 (Mike DeAugustino), 11 (Malik Heinselman), and 14 (Devon Schroder) wrestlers. That's 8 of the top-14!!

Suriano will surely be #1, but after that it's wide open for 2 through 5. This weekend will settle some of it, but the guys in this range have been beating up on each other, so right now it's too early to tell.
Barnett beat Schroder and McKee.
DeAugustino beat McKee and Barnett.
Ayala beat DeAugustino and Schroder.
McKee beat Ayala (3x).
Heinselman beat Ayala.

Hildebrandt has actually missed most of the top talent this season, but gets Heinselman Friday night. Barnett (1 loss) and DeAugustino (1 loss) actually have a better resume, so right now they are in front of Hildebrandt imo. Schroeder has no great wins, and two not-so-bad losses, so at 4-2 he's in the mix too. McKee, even at 2-3 looks competive with this group, but at 2-3 the record is a killer.

Other than Hildebrandt v Heinselman Friday, the only bouts I see that look competitive and will affect seeds in a big way for the remainder of the season are Heinselman vs McKee, and DeAugustino vs Schroder.

Even with a win Friday and a win Sunday, Hildebrandt may end up on the same side as Suriano. He'll need help to get 2 or 3. That said, I'll take a semi against Suriano.
I’ve been thinking about this, too, and wondering how Hildebrandt stacks up if he runs the table the rest of the way.

If he and two other guys (Barnett, DeAugustino) each finish with 1 loss within the B1G, I think we are faced with the classic debate of how to value “good wins” vs “good losses”.

Hildebrandt’s only loss — being to the #1 guy at the weight, let alone the conference — is by far the “best” loss. But his “good wins” (let’s define as Top 15 opponents) would be limited to just one (Heinselman).

DeAugustino lost to Ayala. But he would have 3 “good wins” (Barnett, McKee, Schroder).

Barnett lost to DeAugustino and would have only 2 “good wins” (McKee, Schroder).

DeAugustino has to be ahead of Barnett based on the H2H win. So, is one good win and by far the best loss, with a pinch of last year’s high AA finish, enough to put Hildebrandt ahead of DeAugustino?

Cart before horse, but if Hildebrandt beats Heiselman, well . . . Heinselman beat Ayala who beat DeAugustino.

I like our guy!
 
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I was looking at 125 results within the Big Ten, with the goal of seeing how Hildebrandt could fare seeding-wise, based on how he performs this coming weekend. The B1G is loaded at the top. In the Flo rankings, the conference has the #1 (Suriano), 5 (Eric Barnett), 6 (Patrick McKee), 7 (Drew Hildebrandt), 8 (Drake Ayala), 9 (Mike DeAugustino), 11 (Malik Heinselman), and 14 (Devon Schroder) wrestlers. That's 8 of the top-14!!

Suriano will surely be #1, but after that it's wide open for 2 through 5. This weekend will settle some of it, but the guys in this range have been beating up on each other, so right now it's too early to tell.
Barnett beat Schroder and McKee.
DeAugustino beat McKee and Barnett.
Ayala beat DeAugustino and Schroder.
McKee beat Ayala (3x).
Heinselman beat Ayala.

Hildebrandt has actually missed most of the top talent this season, but gets Heinselman Friday night. Barnett (1 loss) and DeAugustino (1 loss) actually have a better resume, so right now they are in front of Hildebrandt imo. Schroeder has no great wins, and two not-so-bad losses, so at 4-2 he's in the mix too. McKee, even at 2-3 looks competive with this group, but at 2-3 the record is a killer.

Other than Hildebrandt v Heinselman Friday, the only bouts I see that look competitive and will affect seeds in a big way for the remainder of the season are Heinselman vs McKee, and DeAugustino vs Schroder.

Even with a win Friday and a win Sunday, Hildebrandt may end up on the same side as Suriano. He'll need help to get 2 or 3. That said, I'll take a semi against Suriano.
How many losses does Hildebrandt have? If Drew beats him and Schroder beats DeAugostino, does that get Drew the 3 seed?
 
I’ve been thinking about this, too, and wondering how Hildebrandt stacks up if he runs the table the rest of the way.

If he and two other guys (Barnett, DeAugustino) each finish with 1 loss within the B1G, I think we are faced with the classic debate of how to value “good wins” vs “good losses”.

Hildebrandt’s only loss — being to the #1 guy at the weight, let alone the conference — is by far the “best” loss. But his “good wins” (let’s define as Top 15 opponents) would be limited to just one (Heinselman).

DeAugustino lost to Ayala. But he would have 3 “good wins” (Barnett, McKee, Schroder).

Barnett lost to DeAugustino and would have only 2 “good wins” (McKee, Schroder).

DeAugustino has to be ahead of Barnett based on the H2H win. So, is one good win and by far the best loss, with a pinch of last year’s superior AA finish, enough to put Hildebrandt ahead of DeAugustino?
Exactly the way I see it. DeAugustino beating Schroder hasn't happened yet, as you note, so it's a cart-before-the-horse discussion. That bout happens on 2/19. Imo, Hildebrandt not wrestling any of Barnett, DeAugustino, Schroder, or McKee could hurt when it comes down to it.
 
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Exactly the way I see it. DeAugustino beating Schroder hasn't happened yet, as you note, so it's a cart-before-the-horse discussion. That bout happens on 2/19. Imo, Hildebrandt not wrestling any of Barnett, DeAugustino, Schroder, or McKee could hurt when it comes down to it.
Had to take a call and hit “post” before finishing my thought (I subsequently added to that post). It is a very interesting (to me, and I’m sure @mcpat ) wrinkle when you look at a possible tiebreaker between Hildebrandt and DeAugustino and factor in a hypothetical of Hildebrandt > Heinselman > Ayala > DeAugustino.

Friday’s Heinselman match has me Terry-rocking in my chair already. 😉
 
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I think many of us agree that Suriano looks like he’s sucking alot of weight to make 125. 3 days of weigh-ins can be rough on those kinds of wrestlers.
 
Drew shouldn't lose another match (Heinselman will be tough but he should win that) ... is he looking at the 2 seed at Big Tens with that?
 
Drew shouldn't lose another match (Heinselman will be tough but he should win that) ... is he looking at the 2 seed at Big Tens with that?
Not in my opinion. He should easily earn his way to NCAA's regardless of where he starts in the Big Ten brackets though, which is a bigger deal than finishing high at the conference tourney. NCAA seed is impacted though, so I'm rooting for him to do well Friday night and at B1G's.
 
Drake has a torn labrum. I thought this was already out there. I guess maybe that is just what the local wrestling experts out here are saying. They said he actually injured it against McKee and it has been getting worse.
 
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Drake has a torn labrum. I thought this was already out there. I guess maybe that is just what the local wrestling experts out here are saying. They said he actually injured it against McKee and it has been getting worse.
That sucks and as far as injuries has to be downright nasty for a wrestler. If your shoulders are bad it's going to be a tough go. Even if it heals well enough to wrestle the impact and torque will add pressure to rest of shoulder. Hope the young man heals up. Would be nice to see everyone healthy for bigs and nats
 
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Drake has a torn labrum. I thought this was already out there. I guess maybe that is just what the local wrestling experts out here are saying. They said he actually injured it against McKee and it has been getting worse.
Your prized 125 recruit injuring his shoulder in a match against Pat McKee!? Why does this seem so familiar ...

Hope Drake heals up quick!
 
Willie says Drake will be back for Bigs.

I don't think Suriano looks the same a year later and sucked down at 125. My money is against him winning nationals. I like Vito.
The Suriano I watched against tOSU and again vs Minn. looks hard to beat, but the guy that wrestled against PSU looks like a guy cutting too much weight. Vito and Glory also seem pretty big for the weight, so who handles the cut the best has a real edge imo.
 
The Suriano I watched against tOSU and again vs Minn. looks hard to beat, but the guy that wrestled against PSU looks like a guy cutting too much weight. Vito and Glory also seem pretty big for the weight, so who handles the cut the best has a real edge imo.
The difference between losing to Suriano by a point and beating him by a point is big. No one can score a takedown on him or turn him. He seems to wrestle just enough to win and conserves energy just in case. Not a guy who is looking to break records or help his team score by bonusing, just wins. Until someone from the field breaks his defense I'm prepared for a tournament filled with 3-1 type matches.
 
I think Vito can take him down on his best day. I think Glory can ride him, if not turn him. Looking forward to watching it all play out.
 
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I think Vito can take him down on his best day. I think Glory can ride him, if not turn him. Looking forward to watching it all play out.
This is one of the story lines I'll be following too. And it starts this weekend with Glory vs Arujau. It's my opinion that the 3 guys we're talking about have separated themselves from a gaggle of others.
 
I think Vito can take him down on his best day. I think Glory can ride him, if not turn him. Looking forward to watching it all play out.
Reading this comment prompted me to rewatch the Vito-Suriano match from 2019 Senior Nationals.

Granted, this was a long time ago, but I thought Vito looked better overall. Each had a takedown, although Suriano scored off a re-attack when Vito attacked while Suriano was on the clock. Vito, however, generated his own attack in the second and finished the shot. Then, despite losing (via criteria) for the last 90 seconds, Suriano was unable to generate a single committed attack.

Suriano seems to be the same wrestler he's been for a long time - incredible defense, but very little offense (or even urgency) against top competition.
 
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Reading this comment prompted me to rewatch the Vito-Suriano match from 2019 Senior Nationals.

Granted, this was a long time ago, but I thought Vito looked better overall. Each had a takedown, although Suriano scored off a re-attack when Vito attacked while Suriano was on the clock. Vito, however, generated his own attack in the second and finished the shot. Then, despite losing (via criteria) for the last 90 seconds, Suriano was unable to generate a single committed attack.

Suriano seems to be the same wrestler he's been for a long time - incredible defense, but very little offense (or even urgency) against top competition.
although freestyle, didn't Nick dominate earlier in 2021 (french tourney?)
 
although freestyle, didn't Nick dominate earlier in 2021 (french tourney?)
Nick won the Henri Delgane, and Vito took 5th (Gilman 3rd). I don't think they met each other in the bracket though. I believe TG beat Vito though.
 
Do you mean Heinselman? He has 1 loss, to Suriano, same as Hildebrant. Friday night's bout may have a bigger impact on Hildebrandt's NCAA seed than his Big Ten seed.
Once Hilde gets the those long boots in on Heinselman it is all over! It is the hard ride to victory!
 
Saw something interesting on HR and figured this was the best place to post it. They were talking about seeding at bigs, 149 to be exact. One poster seemed to have a decent idea regarding the ducking that seems to be more prevalent now a days. They recommended blind draws. I don't think that would be a bad idea to an extent. I don't think the entire bracket should be drawn.

Lets use 125 as an example:

This year so far Suriano is the clear cut 1 seed. I don't think an entire bracket should be drawn because Suriano has earned the right to be the 1 seed. I know he didn't wrestle half the season, but that definitely wasn't due to a duck, and he is undefeated. Lets say Spencer stayed healthy and wrestled all year. It would be terrible for them to draw the entire bracket and have those two guys wrestle first round.

I would love to do some sort of preference point system that awards guys for stepping on the mat against a ranked opponent, and a bonus point for winning. The problem with that is, these wrestlers don't make their schedules. How do you punish a guy like Drew for hypothetically only seeing one ranked guy in his BIG schedule.

Here is what maybe I would do, and feel free to add or subtract where you feel fit:

If any wrestler goes undefeated in their BIG schedule, they should be in the conversation for 1 seed. Non conference losses would then come in to play as a tie breaker.

If any wrestler skips a match, their name then goes in a hat and everyone who has not skipped a match gets preference, unless the "ducker" has beaten one of the guys who has wrestled every match.

The "ducker's" name stays on the side until a situation like I mentioned above comes up.

The only problem I see, and the problem that I think the NCAA is currently dealing with, is what happens with an actual injury or sickness and how should that be dealt with. At this time, how can anyone who is not a doctor say that someone has simply ducked an opponent. I am a certified ref, and there are definitely sometimes I see kids calling for injury time to take a breather and get some water. However, I can't deny injury time in the event there is an actual injury/medical situation since I am not a doctor.

It is definitely a slippery slope, and one that I think should be dealt with. The problem is, how do you deal with it. Does the NCAA have a doctor or medical staff that all injuries need to be reported to if missing a match? Not so sure I like that idea, but it is an idea.
 
Seeds and rankings should be two separate things.

I like the idea of wiping the slate clean every year for the purpose of seeding. Have seeds for conference tourneys and Nationals 'earned' by the body of work displayed in the current season.

Sure keep weight class 'rankings' including past years records to build a basis for addressing what qualifies as a quality win, but seeds themselves must be earned.

This would eliminate most of the problem with ducking.

So yes that would mean elite kids with injuries or a small body of work could not get the top seeds even if they are named Spencer, Suriano, Nolf, Mecic, Hildebrandt or Kemerer.
 
I would like to see seeds based off of team results at the weight class. A forfeited weight class in a dual is the same as being pinned. Collecting a win by forfeit is the same as getting a pin. Simple and fair. It would suck for some number one seed when a guy like Kyle Snyder shows up 3-0 at the BIG but his seed is based off of the 5-4 record his team total shows and you face him in the quarter or semi.
 
Saw something interesting on HR and figured this was the best place to post it. They were talking about seeding at bigs, 149 to be exact. One poster seemed to have a decent idea regarding the ducking that seems to be more prevalent now a days. They recommended blind draws.
Blind draws would make for epic message boarding
I would like to see seeds based off of team results at the weight class. A forfeited weight class in a dual is the same as being pinned. Collecting a win by forfeit is the same as getting a pin. Simple and fair. It would suck for some number one seed when a guy like Kyle Snyder shows up 3-0 at the BIG but his seed is based off of the 5-4 record his team total shows and you face him in the quarter or semi.
This is fair. Also if you unnecessarily burn a redshirt for a wrestler and your starter comes back, the back up guy still contributed in a meaningful way.
 
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Seeds and rankings should be two separate things.

I like the idea of wiping the slate clean every year for the purpose of seeding. Have seeds for conference tourneys and Nationals 'earned' by the body of work displayed in the current season.

Sure keep weight class 'rankings' including past years records to build a basis for addressing what qualifies as a quality win, but seeds themselves must be earned.

This would eliminate most of the problem with ducking.

So yes that would mean elite kids with injuries or a small body of work could not get the top seeds even if they are named Spencer, Suriano, Nolf, Mecic, Hildebrandt or Kemerer.
It's good to see that you like the current practice that's been in place for years, and see it as a solution. (With the exception of using prior seasons toward quality win determination, that would be new.)
 
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Drake has a torn labrum. I thought this was already out there. I guess maybe that is just what the local wrestling experts out here are saying. They said he actually injured it against McKee and it has been getting worse.

Oh, there's another guy the Brands Brothers won't let heal and he'll be wearing the the same shoulder harness grandpa Mike is wearing.

After all, if there's one joint that is never (re) injured in wrestling, it's the shoulder.

There's a reason they all look they just finished a WW2 amphibious assault and you have to suppress the urge to yell "Medic" when they take the mat.

Oh well, the beatings will continue until morale improves.
 
Bump. Seems like we already have a few stray seeding discussions scattered about. Gonna park this one here . . .
Good thread on HR talking seeding at 125 for Big Tens. With big ten dual record listed next to each, think:

1. Suriano (6-0)

2. Hildebrandt (7-1)

Beat Heinselman; lost to Suriano

3. Heinselman (6-2)

Beat Ayala and McKee; lost to Suriano and Hildebrandt

4. DeAugustino (7-1)

Beat McKee and Barnett; lost to Ayala

5. Barnett (7-1)

Beat Schroder and McKee; lost to DeAugustino

6. Ayala (3-2 or 4-2)

Beat DeAugustino and Schroder; lost to Heinselman and McKee

7. Schroder (5-2)

Beat McKee; lost to Ayala and Barnett

8. McKee (3-5)

Beat Ayala; lost to Heinselman, DeAustino, Barnett and Schroder

9. Shawver (4-4)
 
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It's good to see that you like the current practice that's been in place for years, and see it as a solution. (With the exception of using prior seasons toward quality win determination, that would be new.)
Not even close but I appreciate the critique. Both Flo and Willie have talked about similar scemes noting today's method had serious flaws and can be gamed. And yes a Kylie Snyder, Spencer, Kem, Nolf, or Gable that wrestled too few matches would not get the top seed maybe even not top 4.
 
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I would like to see seeds based off of team results at the weight class. A forfeited weight class in a dual is the same as being pinned. Collecting a win by forfeit is the same as getting a pin. Simple and fair. It would suck for some number one seed when a guy like Kyle Snyder shows up 3-0 at the BIG but his seed is based off of the 5-4 record his team total shows and you face him in the quarter or semi.
I've been saying this for awhile now. There are some drawbacks of course, but this is the best way to stem the "gaming of the system" tide.
It's not perfect either as you'd have multiple guys at a weight registered for the same tournament sometimes.
I'd like the coaches to at least announce the starters before a dual. If those guys are available and do not wrestle it could be considered a loss from a seeding standpoint only.
Schultz is an example here. Had the dual not been in hand would we have seen that match? I believe so. So if he was announced as available and didn't wrestle it would be an "absent" mark for seeding. If he wasn't available he cannot wrestle that day.
 
Not even close but I appreciate the critique. Both Flo and Willie have talked about similar scemes noting today's method had serious flaws and can be gamed. And yes a Kylie Snyder, Spencer, Kem, Nolf, or Gable that wrestled too few matches would not get the top seed maybe even not top 4.

I've heard of a Kylie Minogue, but never a Kylie Snyder...

Or did your phone have a Nolan event?
 
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