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Question: How are in-state and out-of-state tuition factored into....

Brian LB-U

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
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the NCAA's 9.9 man wrestling scholarship allotment? Do schools dole out an amount based on published in- and out-of-state rates (so a kid from, say, Ohio who goes to tOSU gets the same "value" from his 1/4 scholarship as a kid from Pennsylvania gets from a 1/4 scholarship from PSU)? How does that work? My second question concerns the Military Academies and Ivy League schools. What standards are they held to (if any)?
 
makes no difference to the NCAA ...


there are 9.9 scholarships available for wrestling. They can be divided up any way a school elects to do so, with a max a full ride (not many of those) to some minute fraction that basically pays for a credit (or there about).

from the NCAA perspective, it doesn't matter what the costs to the institution are for the 9.9 scholarship -- just that they do not exceed 9.9 scholarships.

it does make a difference to some of the school. most public or semi-public institutions charge differently for an in-state student than they do for an out-of-state student. for those schools, an 1/8 scholarship costs the schools a lot less if it is for an in-state student than if it is for an out-state student. I believe Northwestern, Penn, Cornell, Brown, etc. charge the same regardless of where a student is from, so the 9.9 scholarship cost is the same for them regardless of where the student is from.

while this is outside your question, the impact this has on a family is significant, as an in-state 1/4 scholarship means they pay a lot less than if they are getting an out-of-state 1/4 scholarship.

that said, there are a lot of work-arounds. A lot of public/semi-public colleges have programs where they will charge in-state rates for students from out-of-state with strong academics. and while there are rules that athletes can not get any type of special consideration for academic scholarships and/or financial aid, it's amazing how many athletes are awarded academic scholarships to complement their partial athletic scholarship, long before other applicants know if they have been accepted and/or what financial aid they may receive.

so financially, to a student athlete, an in-state 1/4 athletic scholarship is worth more than an out-of-state 1/4 athletic scholarship, but to the NCAA they are one and the same.

to your second question, the military academies and the Ivies are held to the same NCAA rules. That said, those accepted to the Naval Academy or West Point are given free rides, regardless of whether they are athletes are not. As such, those institutions don't have to worry about athletic scholarships. Ivy League schools do not give out athletic scholarships, so they also don't have to worry about dividing 9.9 scholarships. I know from experience that they do get pretty creative in terms of their acceptance rates, and their academic/ scholarships/financial aid for athletes that they are interested in. They are held to the NCAA standards in terms of eligibility, but there's no type of standard for them with regard to the 9.9 'ships.

Hope that helps.

Tom
 
Just to clarify (hopefully):

The NCAA considers individual scholarship % = (athletic scholarship) / (total bill for that student). Team scholarship level is a sum of the individual %s.

For a hypothetical: if Nolf and Nevills are both at 50%, Nevills gets more money because he has a larger bill as a non-resident. Then Nolf + Nevills = 1.0 scholarship total. Seems straight-forward ...

Some years ago, one wrestling power got an NCAA wrist slap for contorting the math -- they said individual % = (athletic scholarship) / (total bill for a non-resident). For the same example, they counted Nevills = 50%, Nolf = 20-30%. This way they loaded up their roster with in-state wrestlers by offering a little more than the market and then counting it as below market. And they also freed up their money to give bigger offers to non-resident studs.

Back to the original question: it is based upon each school's costs. Penn State is very expensive. Okie State, for example, costs roughly half of PSU. Poke nonresidents pay essentially the same as PSU residents. Let's say Cael and Smith both offered Nevills. If they both offer 50%, then Nevills pays far less out of pocket in Stilly. If Smith offers 50%, Cael would need to offer 75% or more to make the out-of-pocket costs equal.

Hope this makes sense.
 
Another point to add is if scholarships are fully funded by the institution. Big 10 and Big 12 are fully funded, most schools keep this info on lock down. I imagine schools from smaller conferences have funding fluctuations based on NCAA finishes, support from AD, alumni and TV money from football.
 
Very helpful, Gentlemen, thank you. What does "fully funded" mean exactly and how does it differ from "partially funded" in the context of how much Aid a school is allowed to dole out?

This post was edited on 3/26 7:59 AM by Brian LB-U
 
kind of apples and oranges ...


fully funded doesn't affect anything with regards to the NCAA. The 9.9 'ships are still on the books.

however, the fully funded does impact things at individual universities.

each school has their own way of accounting for athletics. At PSU, the budgets of all teams are paid for by the surplus generated by the football team and the men's basketball team. this surplus is then taken and each team is on a budget. The budget includes the costs of the coaching salaries, the costs of transportation to/from meets, the costs of recruiting, and the cost of scholarships (among other things -- no reason to list each item). At PSU, the 9.9 'ships are "fully funded," meaning that PSU will pay out for 9.9 'ships, regardless of whether they are to in-state or out-of-state scholarships.

there are other schools that don't have the profits generated by a large, successful football program. They pay for their athletics a number of ways. At some schools, they are not "fully funded" for the 9.9 wrestling 'ships. Those schools may fund 4, 5, 6 -- whatever the number that is decided for that school. That means that they are "partially funded," and it also means that there are only 4, 5, 6, etc. scholarships to hand out. Some of the partially funded schools also have dollar values on the number, so the coach can construct it anyway he'd like, but if he's at a public/semi-public school then it's to his advantage to get more in-state wrestlers, as his dollars can go further since he has a dollar limit.

And if this isn't confusing enough, keep in mind that some schools are partially funded to X, but will be fully funded IF the wrestling staff/boosters will raise Y dollars to make up the difference between fully funded and partially funded. That's a struggle that they face each year.

Hope that helps.

Tom
 
...a small correction for Tom..."I believe Northwestern, Penn, Cornell, Brown, etc. charge the same regardless of where a student is from, so the 9.9 scholarship cost is the same for them regardless of where the student is from."....

...probably true for NW but the other three are Ivy League schools who supposedly only give "need-based" athletic aide...they do not follow the 9.9 NCAA guidelines...

...of course, as a Brown and White fan once remarked, "Yeah, Cornell only gives need-based scholarships...which means if they "need" you then you will get the money"...
 
yeah, poor example on my part ...


especially since at the end of my post I mentioned that the Ivies didn't give athletic scholarships.

Tom
 
Jefe, do the "costs" take cost of living into account or is it purely based on cost of tuition? Example: Even taking tuition out of the equation, the costs for a kid going to Columbia would far outweigh those of a kid going to Northern Iowa.
 
Jefe - I saw recent info showing that Okie State wasn't as cheap

as it used to be for non-residents. OU, however, was dirt cheap. Not sure how good the info was but it surprised me.

If the state of Oklahoma had near the talent Pa, Oh - even NJ has, we'd be in a pickle. They'd be able to load up on Ok kids and then cherry-pick out of state even if non-res rates were a bit (or even moderately) higher.

Even with PSU's higher instate rates than most other state schools, we still are saved due to all the in-state talent we can get. The high instate rate is still lower than most other states non-resident rates of course. From the data I saw, the Univ of Florida could have a great team as their non-res rate was under PSU's in-state rate. Alas, all they care about is Throwball.
 
I think you're still confusing things a bit ...


let's try this explanation:

forget about wrestling, with the 9.9 scholarships that can be divided any which way they want.

let's look at football. D 1 schools can hand out 85 scholarships. those scholarships can not be divided, so everyone that gets a scholarship is receiving a full ride.

to the NCAA, the costs of the scholarship don't mean a thing. they don't care if all 85 are handed out to in-state kids or out-of-state kids.

to most (not all) individual schools, that are on a budget, the cost of in-state scholarships are far less than the costs for out-of-state scholarships.

cost of living, room and board, tuition -- none of these things, or any other questions about scholarships mean a thing to the NCAA. They require the football scholarships to be full rides, which is tuition AND room & board.

now, everything I stated above holds true for wrestling scholarships, with the exception of them being full rides, and there being 85 per institution. the NCAA only allows 9.9 'ships for wrestling, and they can be divided up any way the institution elects. that said, everything else remains the same in the discussion. costs of living, room and board, tuition -- none of those are factors in how the NCAA looks at the wrestling scholarships, or for that matter how the universities look at the scholarships. If a wrestler is granted a 1/8th scholarship, then after their tuition and room & board charges are computed by the university, then 1/8th of the bill appears as scholarship credit, and the student is responsible for the rest. (They may be also getting financial aid, which would appear on the bill as a credit, but that's not a factor in this discussion; just clarifying the example.) In this example, if the kid with the 1/8th scholarship is in-state, he's costing the institution less than another kid on the team that has a 1/8th scholarship but is out-of-state, but to the NCAA there is absolutely no distinction between the 2 wrestlers -- they each have an 1/8th scholarship, and collectively they account for 1/4 of a scholarship, out of the 9.9 that the institution can hand out for wrestling.

Hope that helps.

Tom
 
Re: I think you're still confusing things a bit ...

The main thing is you need to give an out of state kid more % in order to get him the same cost as an in state kid. In the end you have to use less % of your 9.9 for in state because it takes less of a % to get them a cost they might like.
 
Brian, the 100% cost basis has to include some cost of living rate. Not sure how that's done, but a reasonable guess: dorm room + meal plan. Plus some estimate for books.
 
Re: I think you're still confusing things a bit ...

Originally posted by MVPFAN:
The main thing is you need to give an out of state kid more % in order to get him the same cost as an in state kid. In the end you have to use less % of your 9.9 for in state because it takes less of a % to get them a cost they might like.
You probably have to give him more dollars, but not always a higher athletic scholarship rate.

Matt Brown is ROTC, most likely at 100%. Cam Kelly was ROTC. David Taylor reportedly got academic money. Some guys have supposedly gotten needs-based aid.
 
Re: I think you're still confusing things a bit ...

Tom, I think get it, thank you and others for laying it out. What seems clear from the responses is the current system isn't entirely fair. Generally speaking, and taking the Ivies and Military institutions with their "special allowances" out of the equation and also putting thinngs like ROTC and academic scholarships aside, a blue chip recruit and his family don't realize the same monetary award when he signs with a good school in a more expensive part of the country as they would if he signed with a lesser school in a less expensive part of the country. That is to say, a quarter wrestling athletic scholarship for "Joey Bluechip" from Texas is worth less in, say, Palo Alto, than it is in Sioux Falls. At least in the short term. Am I right? Thanks guys.

This post was edited on 3/26 8:01 PM by Brian LB-U
 
Re: I think you're still confusing things a bit ...

Close ...

A 1/4 ride has a higher dollar value in Palo Alto than Sioux Falls.

But the 1/4 ride in Palo Alto also leaves a larger remaining cost to be paid or otherwise financed.
 
One college wrestling coach told me you need to recruit underprivileged kids so they could qualify for $5,000 federal Pell grants every year.
 
This discussion is why I think it is awfully selfish of wrestling fans to expect a kid to redshirt. Let's say a kid is fortunate enough to get a 1/4 scholarship. If he redshirts he will still end up with 4 years worth of college debt in exchange for five years of busting his hump.
 
For 99% of incoming freshman, they need a redshirt. It's not a question of $$ at that point, but how good is their skill set. Especially if they have a inkling of ever starting more then a few matches during their career. Most coaches are upfront about red shirting when recruiting and during 1st semester of college.
 
Originally posted by manatree:
This discussion is why I think it is awfully selfish of wrestling fans to expect a kid to redshirt. Let's say a kid is fortunate enough to get a 1/4 scholarship. If he redshirts he will still end up with 4 years worth of college debt in exchange for five years of busting his hump.
For the sake of being unselfish, I wish Cenzo had committed to Clarion in order to save himself $7500 per year in tuition and fees.
 
Originally posted by manatree:
This discussion is why I think it is awfully selfish of wrestling fans to expect a kid to redshirt. Let's say a kid is fortunate enough to get a 1/4 scholarship. If he redshirts he will still end up with 4 years worth of college debt in exchange for five years of busting his hump.
Current stats say that of all students who enter Penn State as a freshman, only 64.6% of them finish a degree in 4 years. So redshirting and spending a fifth year at PSU only financially impacts the 35% who would have finished in 4 years. And, if a student-athlete does finish in 4, they can sometimes finish a Master's degree during that fifth year or at least complete another Major.
 
Funding for wrestling scholarships, in addition to some "football" money, comes from Endowed Position Scholarships. The info below is public-domain, from the NLC Website. The names are easily recognizable for those of us that have been around awhile, and to each person on this list, we all owe enormous thanks. ENORMOUS THANKS!!

Wrestling
Michael and Patricia Allegrucci Wrestling Position Scholarship
Galen E. Dreibelbis Wrestling Scholarship (125 lb. Weight Class)
Kenton & Audrey Broyles Endowed Wrestling Scholarship (133 lb. Weight Class)
Mel Kling Endowed Scholarship for Wrestlers (157 lb. Weight Class)
Raymond Shibley Wrestling Endowment (174 lb. Weight Class)
Rich Lorenzo, Head Wrestling Coach From 1979-1992, Endowed Wrestling Scholarship (197 lb. Weight Class)
Lubert Family Varsity Wrestling Coaches Endowment
 
Originally posted by El-Jefe:
Brian, the 100% cost basis has to include some cost of living rate. Not sure how that's done, but a reasonable guess: dorm room + meal plan. Plus some estimate for books.
From the rulebook...


The "cost of attendance" is an amount calculated by an institutional financial aid office, using federal regulations, that includes the total cost of tuition and fees, room and board, books and supplies, transportation, and other expenses related to attendance at the institution.
 
Somewhere above, it was mentioned that football scholarships are handled differently than wrestling. While wrestlers can be given partial scholarships, football players on scholarship get full rides. Interesting is the fact that basketball, women's tennis, women's gymnastics, and women's volleyball are also "headcount" sports. All others are not headcount sports and partial scholarships can be offered.
 
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