Break up the Phillies
- Thread starter Nittany Security
- Start date
Pappy gone! Great news! Addition by subtraction in my opinion. The guy is nothing but a head case and cancer to the lockerroom. Couldn't ever understand why he was brought in to begin with. Now, its time to get rid of Amaro in quick fashion and the team may have a chance of rebuilding before I retire in about 20 years.
I think Sandberg being GONE is the difference. You did not see it at first but the All-Star break was just what they needed. Supposedly the clubhouse attitude is better. They did not want to play for Sandberg. Sandberg did everything possible to loose the team. Different rules for different people is one of the quickest ways to alienate your workers. He was quick to drop Howard in the order but kept Utley at 3 who was hitting worse than Howard. If you drop one, you drop both in the order. It was not until the end that he dropped Utley to 6th. Any respect they might have had for Sandberg was gone after the Giles situation. IMO Sandberg was too stupid to realize this and the Phillies urged him to resign or he would be fired. I thought it would have been a homerun to bring back Charlie for the remainder of the season. I think the fans would have liked it and the players would have responded to him. The team has responded to Mackanin.
I think it is mainly a combination of luck and a couple of guys getting hot and playing better as the pressure is not there anymore. The Phils were in bad shape obviously with all the losing and in the press, etc...when Sandberg was fired and the new GM/President named and the Phils officially said they were going into rebuilding mode, I think the pressure just finally came down and guys are just out there playing and not thinking about what is coming next.
Papelbon should have been run out of town when he did his little "crotch adjustment" to the booing fans while walking to the dugout after a lousy outing.
Yeah, don't think they'll continue to play .900 baseball; on the other hand, they seem a lot better than the .300 team we saw pre-All Star break. They have some good young talent and are playing loose. If they could get to 70 wins or more for the season, that would be good progress.
Hasn't that already happened? 
Ah, no harm intended. I'm a Bucco fan, but I want the Phillies to do well. I'm still looking forward to the day when the Bucs & Phils meet for a trip to the World Series.
Ah, no harm intended. I'm a Bucco fan, but I want the Phillies to do well. I'm still looking forward to the day when the Bucs & Phils meet for a trip to the World Series.
And *maybe* they keep Hamels. He does want to be in Philly by all indications. I'm not holding my breath though.
I think they need to try to get some talent for Hamels. No need to keep him on a team that is years away from competing.
Winning this season can hurt the teams future. They want the #1 pick for next year. But, how do you "tell" young guys to lose games?
Not a culture you want to promote.
Trade Hamels for FAIR value or keep him, either way the Phils win.
Fans will come to see Hamels pitch even on a bad team.
I firmly believe the Phils will be competitive the year after next. Why? They currently have a few good young guys AND they will have tons of cash to spend on free agents. I think they will pick up a couple this season. Next year they will get deeper looks at the young players and if they play decently, they will then add more pieces from free agency. With Lee's, Howard's and Utley's contracts ending they will have even more money. I think both Utley and Howard will be "traded" through the waiver process later this season.
Not a culture you want to promote.
Trade Hamels for FAIR value or keep him, either way the Phils win.
Fans will come to see Hamels pitch even on a bad team.
I firmly believe the Phils will be competitive the year after next. Why? They currently have a few good young guys AND they will have tons of cash to spend on free agents. I think they will pick up a couple this season. Next year they will get deeper looks at the young players and if they play decently, they will then add more pieces from free agency. With Lee's, Howard's and Utley's contracts ending they will have even more money. I think both Utley and Howard will be "traded" through the waiver process later this season.
There are no shortage of examples of teams trading a star for a bunch of touted prospects, but those prospects not amounting to anything. (And examples of the opposite.) It's a crap shoot. More often than not, the trades are done because the star is nearing the end of his contract, or the team is looking to dump salary. Hamels isn't nearing the end of his contract, and the Phils have enough money to not need to dump Hamels' contract.
It's possible that the Phils could make a big step forward in their rebuilding by trading Hamels. It's just as possible that they'll be removing their best pitcher (by far) from their roster, and will have nothing to show for it in a few years.
They get hot every year once they are out of the race. It means nothing. The other 150 games count too.
The guys that went back and forth for Lee did not amount to much--so far. Ditto the guys sent out for Oswalt and Halliday. I'd not be upset if Hamels was still in Pinstripes on Saturday. And he seems to want to stay in Philly.
This is what I said in another thread, if you aren't getting a Gallo or Seager type prospect back then screw it. Keep him. By the end of next year you'll have Franco, Crawford, and Quinn at the top of the lineup and hell Howard isn't playing that bad either right now. I mean not $26 million good but good for a clean up hitter in the current league. Tocci will be up early in the 2017 season and then you have to go out and spend some money on another slugger. IDK who bc teams are wrapping up those types of players but don't just trade Hamels for a bunch of could bes. You have to get a "can't miss" guy and even those guys miss sometimes (Dom Brown).
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Agree, keep Hamels unless you truly get "fair" value. Actually, I think teams not getting him will regret the decision. Some of those teams will "overpay" for OLDER (I think we have been there) starters during free agency. Howard is still a BIG bat, so keep him.
just a general response to this thread
I agree with the 'keep Cole if you don't get value concept'. I laugh at other teams and fans who think that the Phils are salary dumping and should just take lesser prospects.
Cole is one of the best pitchers in baseball
he has a very reasonable contract and is locked up for multiple more years
As far as i'm concerned the bidding should start with the #1 prospect and only go up from there
PS - and no the Phillies should NOT have to pick up any of his salary if he is traded-that's just absurd
I agree with the 'keep Cole if you don't get value concept'. I laugh at other teams and fans who think that the Phils are salary dumping and should just take lesser prospects.
Cole is one of the best pitchers in baseball
he has a very reasonable contract and is locked up for multiple more years
As far as i'm concerned the bidding should start with the #1 prospect and only go up from there
PS - and no the Phillies should NOT have to pick up any of his salary if he is traded-that's just absurd
The Phillies will be one of the more profitable teams in baseball this season and that's with no one going to the games. They have no need to "dump salary" with the new tv deal. They are so far under what their internal "salary cap" that it doesn't matter. The only reason to dump guys is because they aren't helping you win and you could get a guy who can.
And the *other* reason you could get rid of Papelbon, for example, was that Giles is ready. It wasn't just a dump.
Other teams would have to give up some all-star potential talent before I would trade away Hamels. Cueto is just a rental and he brought in several prospects. Hamels is an ace and his contract (salary & years remaining) is aligned with his talent. In a lot of chips fall in place, Phillies could be good in 2017.
I honestly can't believe what I'm reading. Amaro has been blind to the need for a rebuild for at least 2 years, and been ridiculed by media and Phillies fans alike. Now, with his team bottoming out (you hope anyway) as they win 9/10 and still have a 4 game lead on the #1 pick , he FINALLY begins the rebuild.
AND NOW YOU WANT TO HOLD ON!?!?!?!?!?!
This team is horrific. Theyre still on pace to lose 102 games. Roman Quinn has a career minor league slash line of 269/348/388. Carlos Tocci has played 36 games above Low A. AJ Puk is in college! Basing 2015 trades off that crew is akin to buying a house because you're playing Powerball next Friday. How did holding onto Cliff Lee work out?
AND NOW YOU WANT TO HOLD ON!?!?!?!?!?!
This team is horrific. Theyre still on pace to lose 102 games. Roman Quinn has a career minor league slash line of 269/348/388. Carlos Tocci has played 36 games above Low A. AJ Puk is in college! Basing 2015 trades off that crew is akin to buying a house because you're playing Powerball next Friday. How did holding onto Cliff Lee work out?
What rebuild? Let us know when they get rid of Utley, Ruiz and Howard.
If you are sincere with rebuilding then get rid of the worst players first.
Looking at the brighter side of life, they did begin to play better - hate to say it - when Utley went out of the lineup and Franco went in to the lineup.
Looking ahead, I wish that there was more raw power coming into the system. They need outfielders and a catcher with power, IMHO.
No one is saying that. This is *one* player. Lee is 36. Hamels is 5 years younger with a good contract. Lee had good seasons until he got hurt last year. Teams did not really get anything from what we traded for Lee (or got for him), Oswalt, or Doc. I'm ready to move on from the older guys. If it were me, Utley would not play again for the Phils. I'm not sure Howard is tradeable--but we shall see. Ruiz? We'll see.
I tend to discount winning streaks when you are out of the race. Every team has a hot streak and the bottom line is they are still have a terrible record.
The question is how many of the current players can you see starting on a world series team? I can only count one, Franco. They have a long way to go to rebuild.
I agree that Hamels needs to bring at least one top prospect or don't deal him. With his contract some team will cave, even if it is the offseason.
No one is saying 'hold on'? Pretty much every post from 12:00 til mine says that. You don't get to decide what your asset is valued at, the market does. You cant hold a stock at $8 that you bought at 10 and say 'I bought it at 10 so I'm not selling it until 11'
And I have no idea what that trade for Doc or Roy Oswalt has to do with this one
Baseball isn't the stock market. And even there, the market isn't always right about a company.
Those trades indicate that folks who thought they were going to get something for those payers--didn't. There's no guarantee that trading Hamels will improve this team down the road.
I think the point on the Lee and Oswalt trades is that the traded "prospects" did not pan out. Hence the question - trade a known top pitcher for "prospects". I recall reading an article some years ago that indicated 95% of players in AA baseball never make the majors!!
Hence, best get some top AAA guys in return for a pitching #1. At least your odds are improved.
Hence, best get some top AAA guys in return for a pitching #1. At least your odds are improved.
Well, the market is always right but we'll save that debate for another day
Youre closing the book on Travis D'Arnaud (he's 26)? Jonathan Villar (24) would be starting at SS for the Phillies this year. Anthony Gose is still 24 and in his 3rd big league season with better numbers than Odubel Herrera. Theres no guarantee the players they get back for Hamels are going to all make the Hall of Fame, but theres no point in keeping Hames on a 100 loss team
Yea but if you don't like what the Market says you don't have to move your asset when you control it. How is trading Hamels for a mess of could bes going to make them better? If they get a top top prospect then fine. If not hang on to him. He's the one asset that has long term value to the Phillies.
The other trades show that prospects are prospects and most don't work out. So hang onto your ace unless you get one that you are positive will.
Rugger,
One difference is that you're listing players the Phils gave up in trades. These are guys Amaro thought were expendable. You need to list the guys Amaro thought were worth giving up talent to get.
List who they got by trading Victorino, Pence, or Lee and see if any of them are in the majors or even still in baseball.
One difference is that you're listing players the Phils gave up in trades. These are guys Amaro thought were expendable. You need to list the guys Amaro thought were worth giving up talent to get.
List who they got by trading Victorino, Pence, or Lee and see if any of them are in the majors or even still in baseball.
Hamels is a depreciating asset. He has injury risk as well as every start he makes for the Phillies is one more he's not making for the new team
There's plenty of 'top top' prospects who have flamed out too. Why draw the line there? Either you have faith in your scouts and player development, or you don't
You can list them if you'd like. I'm pretty sure the list is going to lead to the obvious conclusion that Amaro is a terrible GM
Villar's hitting 231 lifetime. He's only been in 38 games this year. Galvis is hitting 272 this season. Gose did not stick with Toronto. D'Arnaud did not stick with Toronto. Could any one of them become an All Star? Maybe. But I think the market says otherwise.
Did the Blue Jays cut them? How did they end up on other teams?
Villar is stuck behind Altuve and Correa, do you know who they are?
I said "can't miss" sometimes miss too, but it is at least a lot less likely than getting 3 prospects who are in a teams 4-10. Look at the group that has come up this year alone (Bryants, Correas, Pedersons of the world) and helped their clubs, if you don't get a guy with that level talent don't trade him. period.
Depreciating in the sense that we are all depreciating, sure. Depreciating compared to what else is out there, no. 3 more years of control at a reasonable price. He'll be just as valuable in the offseason or at next years deadline. Get a top talent prospect or keep him.
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